Mary- 'The Mother of God'

[Betterave]

I appreciate you line of thought SonofAdam and your user name too. As a Christian I believe Jesus was fully divine and fully human though WITHOUT sin. I believe Jesus died on the cross.However here is the straight point: His humanity is what died and descended to hell. His divinity did NOT die. This is because Jesus is God and God cannot die. So when we think and talk about Jesus.

Uh… we’ve been through this. ‘Humanity’ is a concept or a universal - as such it cannot die.

 

[Betterave]

You misunderstood. Remember this was in response to you when you said that Jesus(who is God) had ‘created nature’ so I said ‘If you describe Him with created attributes…’(i.e. being created) Jesus must have been made.

Since God is Eternal, He is not bound by time and events. He was The Creator even before creating the heavens and the earth. Anything ‘created’ cannot be described as being Eternal because it means that the thing that was created had a beginning(which you agreed to below). So I don’t see how this means He can’t create. I’m saying nothing about Him can be created.

No, SoA, you misunderstand. Jesus’ human nature was created. Jesus’ divine nature was not. God cannot create real creatures if you refuse to allow that he can take up real relationships to creatures. Do you understand that?

Do you believe that God was a human being before He created the heavens and the earth?

No.

I wasn’t saying that Jesus died. I was saying that it would be impossible to attribute ‘death’ to God Almighty. I was giving a basic and clear example of something that could never be attributed with God.

…and begging the question about Jesus.

Anyhow, what was the point of him be described as being divine if he was just a human being that died?

He was not just a human being that died. How could you possibly suggest that after all that I’ve said?

 

[SonofAdam]

Precisely! The divine aspect of Jesus did not die but the physical aspect of Jesus did - and was resurrected by His divine power.

Your going back to square one.

You might as well say that “a created universe” is self-contradictory because God sustains the universe and is present in every atom! His eternal existence is compatible with His presence in temporal objects.

I don’t think you have realized what you just said. If God was ‘in every atom’ you are saying that He is physically in everything that occupies space. If this is the case, pagans have a justification for worshipping idols? As for objects, all objects have a beginning and were created by God so they cannot be God too at the same time.

In Islam, we believe that God is everywhere according to His Knowledge and Awareness.

So why do you restrict His power to manifest Himself? It suggests you have privileged insight into the nature of God - which is beyond the comprehension of a finite intelligence…

I’m not restricting(i.e. limiting) God Almighty nor am I claiming to understand everything about Him. I am saying what is unbefitting of His Attributes. Actually, even saying that God ‘became a body’ is limiting Him subjecting Him to space and time.

 

[Betterave]

Eternal is ‘lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning’.

Something that was brought into existence (i.e. was non existent before) cannot be said to ‘not have had a beginning’

Now you are contradicting yourself when you say:

In other words, “if something was eternally brought into existence, there never was a time before Someone created it” In this case, something created can be eternal, because it had no beginning and was created eternally.

This is possible because ‘beginning’ can imply ontological origination. It does not necessarily refer to an origination in time.

You are giving a word a different meaning than what it is. This a logical fallacy called ‘conflicting conditions’.

You are saying God can create and uncreated.?]

Thats similar to when you said how can you eat a bowl of concepts.

Close, but no cigar!

Remember this distinction:
‘Created’ means ontologically dependent on the Creator.
‘Eternal’ means lasting or existing forever - sometimes without beginning or end (this is the sense we are using here); and sometimes just without end.

These are logically independent concepts.

 

[Betterave]

I don’t think you have realized what you just said. If God was ‘in every atom’ you are saying that He is physically in everything that occupies space. If this is the case, pagans have a justification for worshipping idols? As for objects, all objects have a beginning and were created by God so they cannot be God too at the same time.

In Islam, we believe that God is everywhere according to His Knowledge and Awareness.

You are right about this. In Christianity, we agree that God is not everywhere in the pagan sense. We could add (and I’m sure you would agree) that God is also everywhere according to his Will (to sustain all creatures in existence) and his Power.

 

[SonofAdam]

This is possible because ‘beginning’ can imply ontological origination. It does not necessarily refer to an origination in time.

This will be interesting, especially if you believe in The One God that causes everything to be and whom all things depend on for existence. Please define ‘ontological origination’. We need to see if this applies to the discussion and points at hand.

Also when you said

He was not just a human being that died. How could you possibly suggest that after all that I’ve said?

What do you mean?

 

[SonofAdam]

You are right about this. In Christianity, we agree that God is not everywhere in the pagan sense. We could add (and I’m sure you would agree) that God is also everywhere according to his Will (to sustain all creatures in existence) and his Power.

When you say ‘Will’ I mean through His Power, Knowledge and Awareness; not in a way unbefitting of Him.

 

[Betterave]

This will be interesting, especially if you believe in The One God that causes everything to be and whom all things depend on for existence (i.e.,The One God that is the ontological origin of all things). Please define ‘ontological origination’. We need to see if this applies to the discussion and points at hand.

You asked:
How can something be ‘eternally brought into existence’ when ‘brought into existence’ means having a beginning.

I replied:
This is possible because ‘beginning’ can imply ontological origination. It does not necessarily refer to an origination in time.

Ontological origination is just origination in being. You were referring to origination in time and presupposing that all creatures must be created in time, and that God cannot create eternally, God is powerless to sustain a creature eternally in existence… Now that claim is unbefitting and contradictory, is it not?

‘Created’ means ontologically dependent on the Creator, i.e., existence (whether eternal or not) depends on God.
‘Eternal’ means lasting or existing forever - sometimes without beginning or end (this is the sense we are using here); and sometimes just without end.

I repeat: these are logically independent concepts.

 

[Betterave]

What do you mean?

I suggest you do some re-reading.

 

[tonyrey]

Precisely! The divine aspect of Jesus did not die but the physical aspect of Jesus did - and was resurrected by His divine power.

What’s wrong with square one? The truth bears being repeated. After all, God is the Perfect One, the Alpha and Omega…

You might as well say that “a created universe” is self-contradictory because God sustains the universe and is present in every atom! His eternal existence is compatible with His presence in temporal objects.

I don’t think you have realized what you just said. If God was ‘in every atom’ you are saying that He is physically in everything that occupies space.

We believe God is immanent as well as transcendent. The alternative is to believe God created the universe and then lets it run under its own steam! This view is close to that of the deist who believes God takes no further interest in what He has created. Why bother to create us or anything else?

If this is the case, pagans have a justification for worshipping idols?

Not at all. Pagans believe the idol - made by man -has supernatural power and is a god. Christians believe nothing can exist without God’s ontological support. Creation is continuous not instantaneous.

As for objects, all objects have a beginning and were created by God so they cannot be God too at the same time.

Objects are not God but they are intimately related to God because without Him they would not exist. He does not “forget” about them.

In Islam, we believe that God is everywhere according to His Knowledge and Awareness.

Then it seems to boil down to a matter of vocabulary. If God is everywhere He is “in” everything. I think we can agree that God’s existence, knowledge and awareness are quite different from human existence, knowledge and awareness. We are using our terminology to describe what is ultimately ineffable and indescribable.

So why do you restrict His power to manifest Himself? It suggests you have privileged insight into the nature of God - which is beyond the comprehension of a finite intelligence…

I’m not restricting(i.e. limiting) God Almighty nor am I claiming to understand everything about Him. I am saying what is unbefitting of His Attributes. Actually, even saying that God ‘became a body’ is limiting Him subjecting Him to space and time.
Does your concept of God’s attributes include Love? That is the reason why the Son of God chose to humble Himself and become like us in all things but sin. While Jesus was on earth He revealed His glory in His Transfiguration on Mount Tabor and also in His Resurrection - which had been foretold by the prophets in the Old Testament centuries before He was born in Bethlehem. Since love is the greatest power that exists it is unthinkable that the Creator has no concern or love for His creatures, never reveals Himself and never works miracles to heal the sick. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God Who is Love. Jesus said “Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends”. He was truly a man who had the greatest love for us the world has ever known. He chose to die for us so that we might be liberated from the power of evil and share His life in heaven. God is not a remote Judge Who sentences us to paradise or hell but a Father Who cares for His children and created us to become perfect as He is perfect. Any other concept of the Supreme Being is unbefitting of His Sovereignty, Power and Glory…

 

[SonofAdam]

You asked:
How can something be ‘eternally brought into existence’ when ‘brought into existence’ means having a beginning.

I replied:
This is possible because ‘beginning’ can imply ontological origination. It does not necessarily refer to an origination in time.

Ontological origination is just origination in being. You were referring to origination in time and presupposing that all creatures must be created in time, and that God cannot create eternally, God is powerless to sustain a creature eternally in existence… Now that claim is unbefitting and contradictory, is it not?

‘Created’ means ontologically dependent on the Creator, i.e., existence (whether eternal or not) depends on God.
‘Eternal’ means lasting or existing forever - sometimes without beginning or end (this is the sense we are using here); and sometimes just without end.

I repeat: these are logically independent concepts.

This is nonsensical.

If something is eternal, i.e. beginningless in existence, then it is not brought into existence, and therefore does not need a creator to exist. It must be necessary, and not possible, in existence. The idea of it being sustained then, is illogical, because the beginningless exist in and of itself, or sustains itself. To say it is being sustained then, is to claim that it could be given exactly what it already has. One cannot gain what it already has. What you are proposing as being subject to God Almighty’s power is not a definable meaning, but nonsense, like “a triagular shape that is not triangular.” Words that are put together and have no meaning.

 

[SonofAdam]

tonyrey says

We believe God is immanent as well as transcendent. The alternative is to believe God created the universe and then lets it run under its own steam!,

Who claimed that the God Almighty doesn’t run the universe?

Not at all. Pagans believe the idol - made by man -has supernatural power and is a god. Christians believe nothing can exist without God’s ontological support. Creation is continuous not instantaneous.,

The point was even if pagans didn’t believe their idol was God, they would have a justification for worshipping it because according to you, God is in every place literally. It would mean that God could be worshipped by worshipping stones,wood etc.

Then it seems to boil down to a matter of vocabulary.,

Again, our belief as Muslims is that Allaah is everywhere through His Knowledge and Awareness and not physically everywhere.

Does your concept of God’s attributes include Love?

Yes indeed. One of the Attributes of Allaah is Al-Wudood i.e The Loving. Imam Ibn al Qayyim explains:

The One Who Loves His Prophet and Messengers and those who follow them and they in turn love Him- He is more beloved to them than anything else. Their hearts have been filled with love of Him, their tongues are constantly moist with praising Him and their hearts are always drawn to Him in love, sincerity and repentance.

“And ask forgiveness from your Lord and turn to Him in repentance. Verily my Lord is the Most Merciful, the Loving.” 11:90

That is the reason why the Son of God chose to humble Himself and become like us in all things but sin. While Jesus was on earth He revealed His glory in His Transfiguration on Mount Tabor and also in His Resurrection - which had been foretold by the prophets in the Old Testament centuries before He was born in Bethlehem. Since love is the greatest power that exists it is unthinkable that the Creator has no concern or love for His creatures, never reveals Himself and never works miracles to heal the sick. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God Who is Love. Jesus said “Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends”. He was truly a man who had the greatest love for us the world has ever known. He chose to die for us so that we might be liberated from the power of evil and share His life in heaven. God is not a remote Judge Who sentences us to paradise or hell but a Father Who cares for His children and created us to become perfect as He is perfect. Any other concept of the Supreme Being is unbefitting of His Sovereignty, Power and Glory…

We believe that each human being is responsible for their own sins and that no one can pay for the sins of another person. Allaah gave us free will and we will be held accountable for our actions on the Day of Reckoning.

4:110-112 If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah’s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And if any one earns sin. he earns it against His own soul: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom. 4:112 But if any one earns a fault or a sin and throws it on to one that is innocent, He carries (on himself) (Both) a falsehood and a flagrant sin."

We believe that pondering over and reflecting over how Allaah, The Most Gracious, has created things as one way to recognize His existence and His favors upon us. He always tells us to think and ponder over the signs that He has placed in the heavens and the earth.

**45:13 And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: Behold, in that are Signs indeed for those who reflect.

55:10-13 It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures:Therein is fruit and date-palms, producing spathes (enclosing dates); Also corn, with (its) leaves and stalk for fodder, and sweet-smelling plants. Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? **

The best way to get to know Him is through His Messengers. Human beings need role models and it is in our nature to look up to someone. Allaah, through His Mercy and Wisdom sent us Prophets and Messengers, from our own kind i.e. humans, for us to look up to so that we could relate to them and benefit from their teachings. The Messenger comes with a book of guidance and he is basically the walking or living version of what was sent to him to be a clear example for the people.

**4:64 We(i.e. Allah) sent not an Messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah.

4:165 Messengers who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the Messengers, should have no plea against Allah. For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. **

There is only one God and He is Absolute having no partners and so we believe that they all taught the same Message.

21:25 Not an Messenger did We(i.e. Allah) send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.

We also believe that the disbelievers will enter the hell fire if the message reaches them and they reject it. This is from the justice of Allaah, Master of the Day of Judgment.

**67:8-10 Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, “Did no Warner come to you?” They will say: “Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, ‘(Allah) never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!’” They will further say: “Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!” **

and Ultimately, Jannah i.e. Paradise, for the believers.

4:122 But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, - We shall soon admit them to Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath, to dwell therein for ever. Allah’s promise is the Truth, and whose word can be truer than Allah’s?

 

[Betterave]

This is nonsensical.

If something is eternal, i.e. beginningless in existence, then it is not brought into existence, and therefore does not need a creator to exist. It must be necessary, and not possible, in existence. The idea of it being sustained then, is illogical, because the beginningless exist in and of itself, or sustains itself. To say it is being sustained then, is to claim that it could be given exactly what it already has. One cannot gain what it already has. What you are proposing as being subject to God Almighty’s power is not a definable meaning, but nonsense, like “a triagular shape that is not triangular.” Words that are put together and have no meaning.

Are you distinguishing between temporal and ontological origination? No. You’re still ignoring this distinction.

Here’s a simple analogy to help you understand: The beginning of a house can be thought of as the date when its construction began. Or it can be thought of as the foundation, that on which the house necessarily rests. The house is necessarily sustained by the foundation no matter how long it has existed - even if the house has always existed. In this case, to say that it is sustained is clearly NOT to say that it COULD be given exactly what it already has (your statement is false). It is to say that it is ALWAYS given exactly what it already has. In other words, its existence always depends on another, it is not intrinsically necessary. Now do you understand?

 

[tonyrey]

Who claimed that the God Almighty doesn’t run the universe?

You imply that God does not sustain the universe with His creative power because He is not present in the universe. Was Creation a single act or is it continuous? Is God the driving force behind physical energy? Does He control events directly in any way, e.g. by intervention, miraculous or otherwise? Or is He simply an Observer of what happens?

The point was even if pagans didn’t believe their idol was God, they would have a justification for worshipping it because according to you, God is in every place literally. It would mean that God could be worshipped by worshipping stones,wood etc.

There is a difference between worshipping idols and reverence for what God has created…

Again, our belief as Muslims is that Allaah is everywhere through His Knowledge and Awareness and not physically everywhere.

Then how do things exist? By themselves? Does God answer prayers and work miracles?

One of the Attributes of Allaah is Al-Wudood i.e The Loving. Imam Ibn al Qayyim explains:
Quote:
The One Who Loves His Prophet and Messengers and those who follow them and they in turn love Him- He is more beloved to them than anything else. Their hearts have been filled with love of Him, their tongues are constantly moist with praising Him and their hearts are always drawn to Him in love, sincerity and repentance.

What evidence is there that God loves human beings? What does He do for us in our daily lives?

We believe that each human being is responsible for their own sins and that no one can pay for the sins of another person. Allaah gave us free will and we will be held accountable for our actions on the Day of Reckoning.

So we are isolated individuals whose prayers and sacrifices for others are completely worthless? If we die to save the lives of others so that they will survive and praise God are we are wasting our time? No matter how much we suffer for our family it will not make the slightest difference for them on Day of Reckoning? Doesn’t that strike you as unjust, unmerciful and unloving on the part of God? Would you treat your family as separate individuals whose destinies are not linked in any way whatsoever?

The best way to get to know Him is through His Messengers. Human beings need role models and it is in our nature to look up to someone. Allaah, through His Mercy and Wisdom sent us Prophets and Messengers, from our own kind i.e. humans, for us to look up to so that we could relate to them and benefit from their teachings. The Messenger comes with a book of guidance and he is basically the walking or living version of what was sent to him to be a clear example for the people.

There have been many prophets in the world. How do you know that your Messenger is the greatest of them all?

**We also believe that the disbelievers will enter the hell fire if the message reaches them and they reject it. This is from the justice of Allaah, Master of the Day of Judgment.
**So everyone who is not a Moslem will go to hell?

 

[SonofAdam]

The house is necessarily sustained by the foundation no matter how long it has existed

Then you said this:

• even if the house has always existed

What do you mean by this?

 

[Betterave]

Then you said this:

What do you mean by this?

I’m not sure how to make it clearer - could you ask a more specific question?

 

[SonofAdam]

I’m not sure how to make it clearer - could you ask a more specific question?

• even if the house has always existed

You already mentioned that the house is sustained by its foundation. I am asking what do you mean by even if the house has already existed?

 

[SonofAdam]

You already mentioned that the house is sustained by its foundation. I am asking what do you mean by even if the house has already existed?

Also when you say ‘ontological origination’ you are refering to metaphyiscal beings correct?

 

[Betterave]

You already mentioned that the house is sustained by its foundation. I am asking what do you mean by even if the house has already existed?

Not ‘already’ - ‘always’.

IOW, “The house necessarily depends on its foundations, even if the house has existed always, for all eternity.”

Also when you say ‘ontological origination’ you are refering to metaphyiscal beings correct?

What do you mean? ‘Metaphysical beings’ as opposed to ‘non-metaphysical beings’? I don’t know what you’re getting at.

 

[SonofAdam]

Not ‘already’ - ‘always’.

IOW, “The house necessarily depends on its foundations, even if the house has existed always, for all eternity.”

The Eternal Being does not depend on anything; it is not limited. Eternal is something self existent and sustains itself so it does not depend on anything unlike your house which depends on a 'foundation i.e, base,- which also didn’t create itself but was created by The Creator. Once it depends on something else, it is not self sustained anymore.

You really need to open up the dictionary to check the meaning of Eternal.

Concise Oxford American Dictionary states:

e-ter-nal -adj- lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

Lasting forever is not Eternal because something which lasts forever is because it was specified by The Creator to last forever not that it was beginningless i.e. uncreated