Mary- 'The Mother of God'

[Elizabeth_Henni]

Oh Please Read This!

Catholics believe that Mary is THE MOTHER OF GOD. She was conceived by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus, God’s Son who is the second person of the Holy Trinity who is equal to the Father and who is equal to the Holy Spirit.

Jesus IS God, one in being and equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Mary is God’s Mom. This is why she was assumed into heaven body and soul and coronated as Queen of Heaven.

“Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.”

 

[SonofAdam]

You said before that when I said ‘beginning’ I was only refering to things in time. Saying that things are not created in time is absurd; here is the ‘square-circle’ theory again.

Being created means existing after non-existence, so the point in which it began marks the beginning of its period of existence, i.e. its time.

 

[Elizabeth_Henni]

I appreciate you line of thought SonofAdam and your user name too. As a Christian I believe Jesus was fully divine and fully human though WITHOUT sin. I believe Jesus died on the cross.However here is the straight point: His humanity is what died and descended to hell. His divinity did NOT die. This is because Jesus is God and God cannot die. So when we think and talk about Jesus.

“His humanity is what died and descended to hell.”

I DISAGREE! His corporal body died and His Spirit descended into hell (probably to take care of some unfinished business) and on the third day, He ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

 

[Betterave]

This is getting ridiculous! You’re having a really hard time listening to what I’m saying.

The Eternal Being does not depend on anything; it is not limited.

Right! The Eternal Being is God and of course God doesn’t depend on anything.

Eternal is something self existent and sustains itself so it does not depend on anything unlike your house which depends on a 'foundation i.e, base,- which also didn’t create itself but was created by The Creator. Once it depends on something else, it is not self sustained anymore.

Right! “Once it depends on something else, it is not self sustained anymore.” But you better read your definition of ‘eternal’ a little more carefully! ‘Eternal’ does not mean ‘not dependent on anything.’ Read what you yourself wrote:

e-ter-nal -adj- lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
i.e., temporal end or beginning

It does not say ‘not dependent on or sustained by anything’ - can’t you see that?

Lasting forever is not Eternal because something which lasts forever is because it was specified by The Creator to last forever not that it was beginningless i.e. uncreated

Ummm… right, except lasting forever is eternal. You yourself said so.

“Eternal is lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning” - forever is a time concept, in case you’re not aware, not an ontological dependency concept. (Check your dictionary if you need to.) Therefore beginning and end are time concepts too in this context. (I don’t know if your first language is English, but mine is, and I am quite proficient at using it, trust me!)

 

[Betterave]

Being created means existing after non-existence.

No it doesn’t. Check your dictionary. Again, I have to guess that you are not a native English-speaker?

 

[SonofAdam]

This is getting ridiculous! You’re having a really hard time listening to what I’m saying.

Right! The Eternal Being is God and of course God doesn’t depend on anything.

Right! “Once it depends on something else, it is not self sustained anymore.” But you better read your definition of ‘eternal’ a little more carefully! ‘Eternal’ does not mean ‘not dependent on anything.’ Read what you yourself wrote:

e-ter-nal -adj- lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
i.e., temporal end or beginning

It does not say ‘not dependent on or sustained by anything’ - can’t you see that?

Ummm… right, except lasting forever is eternal. You yourself said so.

“Eternal is lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning” - forever is a time concept, in case you’re not aware, not an ontological dependency concept. (Check your dictionary if you need to.) Therefore beginning and end are time concepts too in this context. (I don’t know if your first language is English, but mine is, and I am quite proficient at using it, trust me!)

I need to press the pause button for a sec. Even though a lot of what you just answered to was taken out of context. The definitions were understood from the islamic viewpoint. The problem is that I need to know your beliefs concerning God Almighty and His Creation. I won’t be asking about the trinity but basic questions. I think I might have been hasty in assuming that certain points are agreed upon with Islam and Catholicism; we need to agree on the definitions of certain things before continuing this discussion. Your premise is:

" If God is an eternal creator, then perhaps he can create something eternally. (Why not?) In this case, something created can be eternal, because it had no beginning and was created eternally.
In other words, if something was eternally brought into existence, there was a time before Someone created it"

It would be more clearer if I say beginninglessly eternal vs everlasting (so you can see what was meant above and to see the difference between the two).

Questions:

1. Since God Almighty exists, if He creates something(i.e. anything) what is it?
2. Who created place?
3. What is Heaven; is it a place; and does it last forever?
4. If something wasn’t created does it exist?

 

[Betterave]

" If God is an eternal creator, then perhaps he can create something eternally. (Why not?) In this case, something created can be eternal, because it had no beginning and was created eternally.
In other words, if something was eternally brought into existence, there was never a time before Someone created it"

I couldn’t find where you got this quote, but it was missing a ‘never.’ I’ll add as clarification: ‘eternally brought into existence’ means there was never a time when God was not bringing it into existence, such a creature has no temporal beginning or end. This is different from ‘brought into existence for eternity’ where we mean that the creature has a temporal beginning but no temporal end.

It would be more clear-]er/-] if I say beginninglessly eternal vs everlasting (so you can see what was meant above and to see the difference between the two).

Questions:

1. Since God Almighty exists, if He creates something(i.e. anything) what is it?
2. Who created place?
3. What is Heaven; is it a place; and does it last forever?
4. If something wasn’t created does it exist?

I can’t quite see the relevance, but hopefully you’ll explain.

1. A creation or creature.
2. God Almighty.
3. Heaven is the home of the blessed and it lasts forever.
4. Only if it is God.

As to your clarification, I’ve already pointed out that ‘eternal’ can be taken to mean without beginning or end, or just without end. For example, God is eternal in the first sense, while human souls are eternal in the second.

 

[SonofAdam]

You imply that God does not sustain the universe with His creative power because He is not present in the universe.

Just because I said that Allaah is not physically everywhere does not mean He is not able to control His creation. You are thinking of Allaah in terms of how we know things to be and this is wrong. Allaah does not need to be in a place in order to control whatever is in that place. Allaah is in control of everything.

Was Creation a single act or is it continuous?

Allaah said in the Qur’an [from what can be translated]

7:54 Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days,

‘days’ here should be translated as ‘long periods’.

Is God the driving force behind physical energy? Does He control events directly in any way, e.g. by intervention, miraculous or otherwise? Or is He simply an Observer of what happens?

Again, Allaah has power of all things.

2:148 * “…Allah Hath power over all things.” *

There is a difference between worshipping idols and reverence for what God has created…

ok.

Then how do things exist? By themselves?

No. All things exist by the Will of Allaah.

7:191 Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?

Does God answer prayers and work miracles?

Yes. In fact, when it comes to the miracles of the Messengers, one wisdom behind Allaah supporting His Messengers with miracles is to be a proof either to motivate and influence the people that that particular messenger is authentic or to be a proof against them-proving their disbelief on the Day of Judgment. The miracle challenges what the people specialized in at the time and they could never duplicate the miracle.

What evidence is there that God loves human beings? What does He do for us in our daily lives?

Allaah does what He Wills. This means if He does not want to love something, He won’t and if He does, He will. Him loving His creation is not obligatory upon Him. However, one example of a sign of Allaah’s love is when Allaah gives guidance to one of His servants.

So we are isolated individuals whose prayers and sacrifices for others are completely worthless? If we die to save the lives of others so that they will survive and praise God are we are wasting our time? No matter how much we suffer for our family it will not make the slightest difference for them on Day of Reckoning? Doesn’t that strike you as unjust, unmerciful and unloving on the part of God? Would you treat your family as separate individuals whose destinies are not linked in any way whatsoever?

Allaah appreciates goodness and rewards believers and non believers for their good deeds. He provides rain etc for the disbeliever and the believer. The believer and disbeliever get rewarded for their works in this life. However there is a difference. The disbeliever’s reward is restricted to this life while the believer’s rewards are not. The believer gets rewarded in the next life as well. Allaah asks us a very logical question Is the one who believes in His Lord, follows His revelation that was sent down from Him equal to one who disbelieves in it?

32:18. Is then he who is a believer like him who is rebellious? Not equal are they

The Believer and the Rebellious are not equal

Allah tells us that in His justice and generosity, on the Day of Judgement He will not judge those who believed in His signs and followed His Messengers, in the same way as He will judge those who rebelled, disobeyed Him and rejected the Messengers sent by Allah to them. {Tafsir Ibn Kathir}

There have been many prophets in the world. How do you know that your Messenger is the greatest of them all?

After Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) was sent and raised to the heavens, Allaah revealed the Qur’an and in the Qur’an we are commanded to believe in and follow Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him).

2:4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

So everyone who is not a Moslem will go to hell?

If the message of the Prophets reached them and they still stubbornly held unto tradition and rejecting the Message, they will be thrown in the hell fire. The unforgiving sin is Shirk i.e., where one associates partners with Allaah. This can be a person, statute, angels, even themselves. No one who commits this type of Shirk can enter paradise and this means they are not Muslims.

4:48 Allaah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

Allah Does not Forgive Shirk, Except After Repenting From it
Allaah said that He,

لاَ يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ]

(forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship),) meaning, He does not forgive a servant if he meets Him while he is associating partners with Him{Tafsir Ibn Kathir}

42:13 ***The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). ***

 

[SonofAdam]

…

So everyone who is not a Moslem will go to hell?

What is the definition of a Muslim? A muslim simply means someone who submits him/herself to the commands of Allaah. All of the Prophets fall into this category; therefore we believe that all the Prophets of Allaah were ‘Muslims’.

We believe in 1)Allah and His absolute Oneness. 2) All the Messengers who He sent. 3)All the authentic books He revealed. 4) All of His Angels. 5) Fate. 6) The Day of Judgment. Someone who rejects any of this is not a Muslim.

3:84 Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

4:163 ***We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. ***

Anyone who rejects the Message of the Prophets can never enter paradise; if they accept then they are ‘Muslims’.

 

[SonofAdam]

I couldn’t find where you got this quote, but it was missing a ‘never.’ I’ll add as clarification: ‘eternally brought into existence’ means there was never a time when God was not bringing it into existence, such a creature has no temporal beginning or end. This is different from ‘brought into existence for eternity’ where we mean that the creature has a temporal beginning but no temporal end.

I can’t quite see the relevance, but hopefully you’ll explain.

1. A creation or creature.
2. God Almighty.
3. Heaven is the home of the blessed and it lasts forever.
4. Only if it is God.

As to your clarification, I’ve already pointed out that ‘eternal’ can be taken to mean without beginning or end, or just without end. For example, God is eternal in the first sense, while human souls are eternal in the second.

I don’t know how I missed the ‘never’. I apologize for that mistake.

**You have agreed that **

1. anything created is a creation of God Almighty.
2. if something was not created it does not exist i.e., non existence

Now I have another question:

If something is an Eternal Being is it Self Suficient?

 

[Betterave]

I don’t know how I missed the ‘never’. I apologize for that mistake.

**You have agreed that **

1. anything created is a creation of God Almighty.
2. if something was not created it does not exist i.e., non existence

Now I have another question:

If something is an Eternal Being is it Self Suficient?

Usually when we capitalize ‘Eternal Being’ that indicates we mean God. And of course God is self-sufficient. If there were an eternal being that was created, obviously such a being would not be self-sufficient. Creatures always depend on the Creator, no matter how long they exist.

 

[SonofAdam]

Usually when we capitalize ‘Eternal Being’ that indicates we mean God. And of course God is self-sufficient. If there were an eternal being that was created, obviously such a being would not be self-sufficient. Creatures always depend on the Creator, no matter how long they exist.

So we agree that

All beings are created by God and these can never depend on themselves but always depend on God Almighty.

Question:

Can something possible be eternally beginningless?

 

[Betterave]

So we agree that

All -]beings/-] creatures (created beings) are created by God (God does not create Himself, of course, although He is a being) and these can never depend on themselves but always depend on God Almighty.

Question:

Can something possible be eternally beginningless?

If something is beginningless, it must be so eternally. ‘Eternally beginningless’ is redundant, is it not? So your question seems to be:

Is it possible for something to be eternal?

And obviously this is possible - we agree that God is something and is eternal.

If your question is whether it is possible for something besides God to be eternal, I don’t know for sure, but I don’t see why not. This is the point I’ve already made repeatedly. You have claimed it is impossible, but have only given obviously bad reasons in support of your claim.

 

[SonofAdam]

If something is beginningless, it must be so eternally. ‘Eternally beginningless’ is redundant, is it not? So your question seems to be:

Is it possible for something to be eternal?

And obviously this is possible - we agree that God is something and is eternal.

If your question is whether it is possible for something besides God to be eternal, I don’t know for sure, but I don’t see why not. This is the point I’ve already made repeatedly. You have claimed it is impossible, but have only given obviously bad reasons in support of your claim.

You said: If your question is whether it is possible for something besides God to be eternal, I don’t know for sure, but I don’t see why not

So you are saying it is a possibility. (?)

Do you agree then that something eternal does not need specification?

 

[SonofAdam]

If something is beginningless, it must be so eternally. ‘Eternally beginningless’ is redundant, is it not? So your question seems to be:

Is it possible for something to be eternal?

And obviously this is possible - we agree that God is something and is eternal.

If your question is whether it is possible for something besides God to be eternal, I don’t know for sure, but I don’t see why not. This is the point I’ve already made repeatedly. You have claimed it is impossible, but have only given obviously bad reasons in support of your claim.

You said: If your question is whether it is possible for something besides God to be eternal, I don’t know for sure, but I don’t see why not

So you are saying it is a possibility. (?)

Do you agree then that something eternal does not need specification?

Please explain the rational with this statement:

‘eternally brought into existence’ means there was never a time when God was not bringing it into existence,

 

[SonofAdam]

If something is beginningless, it must be so eternally. ‘Eternally beginningless’ is redundant, is it not? So your question seems to be:

Is it possible for something to be eternal?

And obviously this is possible - we agree that God is something and is eternal.

If your question is whether it is possible for something besides God to be eternal, I don’t know for sure, but I don’t see why not. This is the point I’ve already made repeatedly. You have claimed it is impossible, but have only given obviously bad reasons in support of your claim.

Do you agree that to create means ‘to bring into existence’ i.e. its beginning?

 

[SonofAdam]

You said

‘eternally brought into existence’ means there was never a time when God was not bringing it into existence,

Can you explain this statement again because it is still mind boggling to me: maybe you can provide an example instead.

P.S. Thank you for your patience

 

[Betterave]

Do you agree that to create means ‘to bring into existence’ i.e. its beginning?

Yes, but ‘beginning’ is usually a ‘time’ concept - if we apply it to a beginningless creature, it can no longer be a ‘time’ concept. It then becomes just a concept that indicates that the creature does not sustain itself (is not the source of its own being), but is wholly sustained by God Almighty. It exists without beginning or end only because the Will of God Almighty has so ordained. If you want an Islamic defense of the coherence of this claim, I believe that the great Muslim falasifah Ibn Rushd taught that the world was this kind of being - wholly dependent on God Almighty, but existing without beginning or end.

 

[SonofAdam]

Yes, but ‘beginning’ is usually a ‘time’ concept - if we apply it to a beginningless creature

I will never believe in a ‘beginningless creature’. Since it comes from non-existence into existence it changed and its change is the beginning. Anything that was created has a beginning. All islamic scholars do not agree with Ibn Rushd’s philosophies. Something that the Creator brought into existence is its beginning, its period of time. Ibn Rushd will have to bring his evidence from the revelation to hold the opinion that he has i.e., that the world is beginningless.

Being created does in fact mean ‘brought into existence’. That means if something does not exist it is non existent. You disagreed with this definition.

I said

Being created means existing after non-existence.

Your response

No it doesn’t. Check your dictionary.

Concise Oxford American Dictionary

1.to bring (something) into existence

You said

It exists without beginning or end only because the Will of God Almighty has so ordained.

This is self contradicting. If it doesn’t have a beginning, then it cannot be ordained, because it is not preceded by nonexistence.

So I will have to agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

 

[SonofAdam]

It could but “God the son” might give the impression that Jesus is the son of Mary but not the Son of God! To be precise, Christians believe the Son of God existed before He was born of Mary in Bethlehem. This obviously conflicts with the Moslem belief that God is One, not three Persons…

All the prophets of Allaah believed Allaah to be One.

*“**And We (Allâh) did not send any Messenger before you but We inspired him (saying): Lâ ilâha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allâh)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)." ***[Qur’an 21:25]

Prophet Moses(peace be upon him) is reported to have said:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is ONE Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." [Deut 6:4]

After him Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) taught the same when the scribes asked him,

"…Which is the first commandment of all? "

Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) said;

"The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord: And thou shalt love thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. " [Mark12:29-30]

and finally, Prophet Muhammad(peace and bessings be upon him) said

"And your god is One God. There is no deity worthy of worship ] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful." [2:163]