Mary- 'The Mother of God'

[SonofAdam]

Jesus is not completely God, because he was “of the flesh”… So therefore, Jesus was half God, and half man… Jesus had two natures, which is the official Christian position.

You are free to choose what you want to believe.

So its a mystery.

The point the Qur’an is saying is that it wasn’t Jesus. That is enough for us to know.

I don’t know if the scholars selected one opinion over the other, but it doesn’t really matter. We know it was Jesus(peace be upon him).

Jesus also cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

This is proof of Jesus’ two natures…

If you say so. It is apparent from that statement, it can have more than the interpretation you gave to it.

 

[GeorgeSword]

How can there be a debate over this?
Jesus = God
Mary = Jesus’ mother
Therefore, is Mary is Jesus’ mother, and Jesus is God, Mary must be the Mother of God
Elizabeth even calls her such in Luke 1:43. "Mary, Mother of my Lord.
Lord = Lord, as in ‘God’.

 

[Vile_Servant]

From what I am aware of is that their are two opinions. The person who died was either Judas because he was an agent working with the corrupt tyrants and this was his punishment for partnering up with them. Or it was one of Jesus’s true and loyal disciples who sacraficed himself for the cause. Not all early christians believed that Jesus died. Whoever it was, it wasn’t Jesus and the person who died was made to look like Jesus. So the disbelievers were duped. They plotted to murder him simply because he was calling to Monotheism and did not compromise his beliefs to please the rulers and the corrupt Rabbis at the time.

Why such an elaborate ruse? Allah could have raised Jesus to heaven in full view of the disbelievers right there and then, and saved the prophet Muhammed all that bother of refuting Christianity 600 years later.

 

[TEPO]

Allaah gives us enough information in His Books about Himself and sufficient information for the guidance of the Children of Adam(peace be upon him). The Messengers are the embodiment of the Books that were revealed to them and we relate to them because they are not more than human beings. Therefore they are the practical example of what was revealed to them and the people take them as role models.

Oh really… So it is possible for “prophets” to obtain a perfect understanding of Allah through books -without Allah Himself offering His grace to the “prophet”?

I would have thought that anyone who was given life by Allah, would have been granted the very special graces or abilities to interpret the Qu’ran by Allah as well… After all, who else can give man abilities besides Allah?

So you are telling me that the Qu’ran says that Allah give’s no special abilities to read His book to His own prophets? Therefore equally, Allah will not offer His Spirit to dwell in any man?

Where is this in the Qu’ran?

 

[SonofAdam]

Why such an elaborate ruse? Allah could have raised Jesus to heaven in full view of the disbelievers right there and then, and saved the prophet Muhammed all that bother of refuting Christianity 600 years later.

Allaah has a plan and He is the best of planners.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Jahenum(Hell-Fire) will last forever. If believers happen to go to the hell fire, it will be temporary for them but always everlasting for the disbelievers.

so the prophet Muhammad was wrong?

 

[SonofAdam]

Oh really… So it is possible for “prophets” to obtain a perfect understanding of Allah through books -without Allah Himself offering His grace to the “prophet”?

I would have thought that anyone who was given life by Allah, would have been granted the very special graces or abilities to interpret the Qu’ran by Allah as well… After all, who else can give man abilities besides Allah?

So you are telling me that the Qu’ran says that Allah give’s no special abilities to read His book to His own prophets? Therefore equally, Allah will not offer His Spirit to dwell in any man?

Where is this in the Qu’ran?

16:123 ***So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), “Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with Allah.” ***

Messengers(peace be upon them all) can only understand what Allaah has taught them. I never said that the Messengers learned through books they are divinely inspired. Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) was illiterate.

***And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.) ***(Al-`Ankabut 29: 48)

All I said was that they are the practical embodiment of the Books that were revealed to them; obviously this means they understand what is revealed to them. The Prophets will not remain with the people forever, they have to die just like all other created beings;they leave behind them knowledge. The knowledge they leave behind is sufficient for the people. The word is ‘guidance’ and Allaah will guide those who are sincere to the truth of things.

 

[TEPO]

Messengers(peace be upon them all) can only understand what Allaah has taught them. I never said that the Messengers learned through books they are divinely inspired. Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) was illiterate. All I said was that they are the practical embodiment of the Books that were revealed to them; obviously this means they understand what is revealed to them. The Prophets will not remain with the people forever, they have to die just like all other created beings;they leave behind them knowledge. The knowledge they leave behind is sufficient for the people. The word is ‘guidance’ and Allaah will guide those who are sincere to the truth of things.

So if Allah does in fact offer divine inspiration to prophets, then it is in fact possible that Allah can offer His divinity to Jesus at His own discretion…

So it is possible that Allah lived in Jesus’ mortal body right?
There is nothing in the Qu’ran that says Allah can’t right?

EDIT: Because Allah is known to do this to some extent anyways…

 

[Vile_Servant]

Allaah has a plan and He is the best of planners.

So Allah, the Merciful and Forgiving, by his act of deception, has deliberately created the religion of Christianity which professes its core belief as the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in order that all Christians may be guilty of shirk and burn in hellfire forever.

This is the best of plans of a Merciful and Loving Allah?

 

[SonofAdam]

Allaah is The Eternal Being. He was not made nor does He give birth to children.

A human being is not Allaah nor is Allaah a human being.

The Creator will always stay The Creator and His creation will always be His creation

So it is impossible for Allaah to become **His own creation **because this contradicts His own Being.

If you say God became a man, then He is not God anymore nor is the man just a man anymore.

Allaah showed us with Infinite power how he created human beings.

1)Adam was created without a father or a mother

2)Eve was created by Allah from a male only

3)Jesus was a male created by Allaah from a female only

4)Mary is a human being made by Allaah from a male and female only, like everyone else, except she was used as a tool to give birth to Jesus(peace be upon them) without a father.

Its very simple.

 

[SonofAdam]

So Allah, the Merciful and Forgiving, by his act of deception, has deliberately created the religion of Christianity which professes its core belief as the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in order that all Christians may be guilty of shirk and burn in hellfire forever.

This is the best of plans of a Merciful and Loving Allah?

Well to us, the original followers of Jesus(peace be upon him) were upon the truth. They followed the original teachings of Jesus and died that way. Islam sees them as ‘saved’. This is for any child of Adam that came into the world; if they died believing in their original messenger and died believing in that, they died saved. Allaah gave people free will. Its unfortunate that people add and invent things into beliefs and say ‘this is the truth’, this is the path of Satan. I would say the blame is upon those who innovated new ideas into the teachings of Jesus. Like I said, once the true message comes to a person and then they reject it, they will be held responsible for their choice.

Muslims don’t want anyone to go to the hell-fire, but Allaah’s word must come true.

***“I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together.” ***

Why is it that soo many catholics except the ‘mystery’ i.e., so confusing that we cannot even explain it properly, of the trinity; A lot of them say its confusing and it doesn’t make any sense; but they stick to it because its all they know.

5:104 ***When it is said to them: "Come to what Allah hath revealed; come to the messenger.: They say: “Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following.” what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance? ***

Saying Allaah is One, Absolute is not confusing. Dividing Him into ‘this and that’ is. You can choose pure monotheism or trinitarianism; its up to you. We will see what will happen on the Day of Reckoning:

20:135 ***Say: “Each one (of us) is waiting: wait ye, therefore, and soon shall ye know who it is that is on the straight and even way, and who it is that has received Guidance.” ***

 

[TEPO]

Allaah is The Eternal Being. He was not made nor does He give birth to children.

A human being is not Allaah nor is Allaah a human being.

The Creator will always stay The Creator and His creation will always be His creation

So it is impossible for Allaah to become **His own creation **because this contradicts His own Being.

If you say God became a man, then He is not God anymore nor is the man just a man anymore.

I thought we already agreed that Allah does in fact offer divine inspiration to His creation… How else are prophets able to interpret His books??? Remember?

Now you say that Allah can never enter His own creation?

This is where Islam makes no sense…

Allaah showed us with Infinite power how he created human beings.

1)Adam was created without a father or a mother

2)Eve was created by Allah from a male only

3)Jesus was a male created by Allaah from a female only

4)Mary is a human being made by Allaah from a male and female only, like everyone else, except she was used as a tool to give birth to Jesus(peace be upon them) without a father.

Its very simple.

Yes, yes, we agree on that.

 

[SonofAdam]

I thought we already agreed that Allah does in fact offer divine inspiration to His creation… How else are prophets able to interpret His books??? Remember?

Now you say that Allah can never enter His own creation?

So you must think that Allah can only offer a set-amount of divinity to His creation…

This is where Islam makes no sense…

Sorry if I am confusing you.

We do not equate ‘divine inspiration’ with Allaah’s Self. We are only saying that ‘divine inspiration’ is a form of perfect guidance and help from The Creator to His Messengers.

1. It is not given to any human being that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation, or from behind a veil, or (that) He sends a Messenger to reveal what He wills by His leave. Verily, He is Most High, Most Wise.

How the Revelation comes down

This refers to how Allah sends revelation. Sometimes He casts something into the heart of the Prophet , and he has no doubt that it is from Allah, as it was reported in Sahih Ibn Hibban that the Messenger of Allah said:

«إِنَّ رُوْحَ الْقُدُسِ نَفَثَ فِي رُوعِي أَنَّ نَفْسًا لَنْ تَمُوتَ حَتْى تَسْتَكْمِلَ رِزْقَهَا وَأَجَلَهَا، فَاتَّقُوا اللهَ وَأَجْمِلُوا فِي الطَّلَب»

(Ar-Ruh Al-Qudus * breathed into my heart that no soul will die until its allotted provision and time have expired, so have Taqwa* of Allah and keep seeking in a good (and lawful) way.)

أَوْ مِن وَرَآءِ حِجَابٍ]

(or from behind a veil) – as He spoke to Musa, peace be upon him. He asked to see Him after He had spoken to him, but this was not granted to him. In the Sahih, it recorded that the Messenger of Allah said to Jabir bin `Abdullah, may Allah be pleased with him:

«مَا كَلَّمَ اللهُ أَحَدًا إِلَّا مِنْ وَرَاءِ حِجَابٍ، وَإِنَّهُ كَلَّمَ أَبَاكَ كِفَاحًا»

(Allah never speaks to anyone except from behind a veil, but He spoke to your father directly.) This is how it was stated in the Hadith. He [Jabir’s father] was killed on the day of Uhud, but this refers to the realm of Al-Barzakh*, whereas the Ayah speaks of this earthly realm.

أَوْ يُرْسِلَ رَسُولاً فَيُوحِىَ بِإِذْنِهِ مَا يَشَآءُ]

(or (that) He sends a Messenger to reveal what He wills by His leave*.) as Jibril, peace be upon him, and other angels came down to the Prophets, peace be upon them.

إِنَّهُ عَلِىٌّ حَكِيمٌ]

(Verily, He is Most High, Most Wise.) He is Most High, All-Knowing, Most Wise.
{Tafsir Ibn Kathir}

Angel Gabriel(peace be upon him) is the Angel of Wahy(revelation) and he was sent to all the Prophets to assist them on their missions. All the Messengers were the best teachers to ever walk on the face of the earth and in their stories we derive the best lessons.

12:111 ***There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe. ***

---

*Taqwa is always being aware of Allaah, being extremely God fearing etc.

**Al-Barzakh *“Technically, it stands for an intermediary stage between this life and another life in the Hereafter; it’s an interval between death and the Day of Resurrection.” Allah says: **“Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up.” **(Al-Mu’minun: 100)
{IslamOnline}

 

[TEPO]

We do not equate ‘divine inspiration’ with Allaah’s Self.

Why? Should’nt we strive to be the best we can by imitating God’s Self?

Why should we think of God as a mystical Being so distant from us in every way? Why distance ourselves when even in the garden of Eden, God Himself came to visit Adam and Eve on a friendship level?

Why should we view God now as so distant from us? He is our friend.

We are only saying that ‘divine inspiration’ is a form of perfect guidance and help from The Creator to His Messengers.

Why should we force this separation between God and us (children)?

 

[TEPO]

I say: God sent Jesus here to show us just what He’s “like”… Something that the books can never do!

also-

Why is it that soo many catholics except the ‘mystery’ i.e., so confusing that we cannot even explain it properly, of the trinity; A lot of them say its confusing and it doesn’t make any sense; but they stick to it because its all they know.

Catholics don’t stick to the Trinity because “its all they know”. We stick to the one true God almighty because He lives in us. We eat the body and blood of His living Sacrifice… He shows Himself through His only Son, and continues to guide us through the Holy Spirit.

We are His children and we worship Him the one almighty God.

 

[SonofAdam]

Why? Should’nt we strive to be the best we can by imitating God’s Self?

His Messengers have taught us to try to be the best that we can be. Allaah commands us to RACE and strive in doing good deeds:

2:148***"…then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good."***

Why should we think of God as a mystical Being so distant from us in every way? Why distance ourselves when even in the garden of Eden, God Himself came to visit Adam and Eve on a friendship level? Why should we view God now as so distant from us? He is our friend. Why should we force this separation between God and us (children)?

50:16 ***It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein. ***

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:

"Allah the Almighty said:

‘O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.’"

2:257. Allâh is the Walî (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into light,"

We distance ourselves from Allaah when we commit kufr/disbelief and sins. We come closer to Allaah the more we strive in righteousness. Even though the world competes with one another in worldy things, this does not bring one closer to Allaah.

49:13 **O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). **

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

"Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said:

‘Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it…’"

 

[SonofAdam]

so the prophet Muhammad was wrong?

Sorry Vile Servant; I missed this comment.

Can your bring the source that says that Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) said Jahenum is temporary? [in general?]

 

[SonofAdam]

Well to us, the original followers of Jesus(peace be upon him) were upon the truth. They followed the original teachings of Jesus and died that way. Islam sees them as ‘saved’. This is for any child of Adam that came into the world; if they died believing in their original messenger and died believing in that, they died saved. Allaah gave people free will. Its unfortunate that people add and invent things into beliefs and say ‘this is the truth’, this is the path of Satan. I would say the blame is upon those who innovated new ideas into the teachings of Jesus. Like I said, once the true message comes to a person and then they reject it, they will be held responsible for their choice.

Muslims don’t want anyone to go to the hell-fire, but Allaah’s word must come true.

***“I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together.” ***

Why is it that soo many catholics except the ‘mystery’ i.e., so confusing that we cannot even explain it properly, of the trinity; A lot of them say its confusing and it doesn’t make any sense; but they stick to it because its all they know.

5:104 ***When it is said to them: "Come to what Allah hath revealed; come to the messenger.: They say: “Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following.” what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance? ***

Saying Allaah is One, Absolute is not confusing. Dividing Him into ‘this and that’ is. You can choose pure monotheism or trinitarianism; its up to you. We will see what will happen on the Day of Reckoning:

20:135 ***Say: “Each one (of us) is waiting: wait ye, therefore, and soon shall ye know who it is that is on the straight and even way, and who it is that has received Guidance.” ***

After the underlined part I wanted to add:

The Justice of Allaah

If someone did not hear of the message of Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) this person will not be punished in the hereafter based off that.

***“We never punish until We send a messenger (and they reject him)” ***(17:15).

Imam Jalal ud Din Suyuti said,“This has been defined by Imam Shafi`i . . . and some of the fuqaha’(jurist) have explained that the reason is that that person is on fitra (primordial disposition), and has not stubbornly refused nor rejected any Messenger.”

He also quotes:

The verse, “Otherwise . . . they might say, Our Lord! Why sentest Thou no messenger unto us, that we might have followed Thy revelations and be among the believers?” (28:47) Adduced by Zarkashi and Ibn Abi Hatim in their tafsirs. The latter adds the Hadith, “Those who die in fitra will say, My Lord, no book nor messenger reached me, and he recited this verse.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

They will be tested in another way:

Imam Jalal ud Din Suyuti continues saying:

Al-Bazzar and Tirmidhi who correctly graded it hasan: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said,

The one who died in fitra, the imbecile, and the infant will say respectively: No Book or Messenger reached me; You gave me no mind wherewith to understand good or evil; I did not have a chance to do anything. A fire will be presented to them and they will be told to enter it. Those who would have done well in life will obey and enter it (temporarily) while those who would have disobeyed in life will refuse. Allah will tell them, You disobey Me (seeing Me), so how could you obey My Messengers in My absence? (Abu Sa`id al-Khudri)

 

[SonofAdam]

I say: God sent Jesus here to show us just what He’s “like”… Something that the books can never do!

I already told you that we believe that all the Messengers were the embodiment of the revelation that came to them in order for the people to relate to them. They lived amongst their people, ate with them, talked with them, went through struggle with them etc.

also-

Catholics don’t stick to the Trinity because “its all they know”.

It would have been better if I said just ‘some of them’.

We stick to the one true God almighty because He lives in us. We eat the body and blood of His living Sacrifice…

He shows Himself through His only Son, and continues to guide us through the Holy Spirit.

At the time of Moses(peace be upon him) he was the Messenger whom everyone had to believe in and obey. At the time of Jesus(peace be upon him) he was the Messenger whom everyone had to believe in and obey. After him came Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) and now it is incumbent upon us to believe in him and obey him.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Sorry Vile Servant; I missed this comment.

Can your bring the source that says that Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) said Jahenum is temporary? [in general?]

SonofAdam,

planten says in forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6332372&postcount=222
The prophet Muhammad said, “Hell will be empty one day and the morning breeze will rattle (swing to and fro) the open doors of empty hell.”