Mary was just a vessel

[benidict]

I wonder how the humble Virgin from Nazareth would react if she knew that followers of her Son were being contentious and combative over whether or not she had ever sinned or had relations with her husband or whether or not her body was taken to heaven. I don’t think the Mary of the Bible would care much for matters of her personal life being a cause of division amongst Christians. I will not disown a Christian for having his or her own sincere beliefs about the Blessed Virgin Mary. It would be nice if Rome extended the same charity towards others instead of labeling dissenters as heretics. I can’t imagine that pleases the Mother of the Lord.

ah, but do not the protestants call their own people heretics if they do come to the conclusion of the Roman Church? there are protestants that do recite the rosary, and do hold her in the same esteem as the Holy Catholic Church. but they must remain silent. or else risk expulsion from their congregations. by the way, how do the anglicans view the Blessed Mother. i know we are very close on many issues, would like to learn more from you on this. thx

 

[VARC]

ah, but do not the protestants call their own people heretics if they do come to the conclusion of the Roman Church? there are protestants that do recite the rosary, and do hold her in the same esteem as the Holy Catholic Church. but they must remain silent. or else risk expulsion from their congregations. by the way, how do the anglicans view the Blessed Mother. i know we are very close on many issues, would like to learn more from you on this. thx

you are painting protestantism with a very broad brush. Most mainline protestants won’t expel people from their pews because of Marian beliefs. Perhaps a few firebrand Baptists but they are the exception to the rule. Marian beliefs are a cause for formal expulsion only in the RCC as far as I know.

Anglicans have diverse opinions about the Virgin Mary. Some have identical beliefs to the RCC and pray rosaries and pilgrimage to Marian shrines. Others are very reformed in their views and view her only as another good Christian wife and mother. But in Anglicanism, one’s salvation about doesn’t depend on one’s views about Mary. Diversity of belief is tolerated.

 

[benidict]

What you have asserted here was defeated in the third century as a heresy by the Church. The reason Mary was given the title “Theotokos” is because He was taken from her “seed”. He was knit together in her womb, blood of her blood, flesh of her flesh. Jesus most definely needed a mother. If He did not, He would not have created one for Himself! Sure, He could have found Himself in the form of a man fully grown, and appeared on earth, but He chose to come through humanity.

hi guanophore, you have an excellent grasp of the original languages. just curious, are you a seminarian or a priest? i am really getting an education reading your post. enjoy reading them and learning more. thank you for all your doing. alot of us are uplifted by your knowlegable apologetics.

 

[benidict]

you are painting protestantism with a very broad brush. Most mainline protestants won’t expel people from their pews because of Marian beliefs. Perhaps a few firebrand Baptists but they are the exception to the rule. Marian beliefs are a cause for formal expulsion only in the RCC as far as I know.

Anglicans have diverse opinions about the Virgin Mary. Some have identical beliefs to the RCC and pray rosaries and pilgrimage to Marian shrines. Others are very reformed in their views and view her only as another good Christian wife and mother. But in Anglicanism, one’s salvation about doesn’t depend on one’s views about Mary. Diversity of belief is tolerated.

thank you for your time on this subject.l have a very good friend that like me left the baptist church. i went to catholcism he became and anglican priest. interestingly enough, he joined the anglicans because of his british heritage. he also lost alot of friends because he was a baptist minister. ive talked with him about things of this nature so i kinda knew we were close. its good the anglicans give their people the freedom to do this. ditto on the baptist remark, fundamentalist were who i had in mind. next time ill try not to paint with a broad brush

 

[Good_Fella]

Mary is connaturally related to the Word become flesh, having been overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. It was through her that God created our Lord’s human soul and that the divine Word acquired his human intellect and will by the power of the Holy Spirit - the active non-separate principle of our Lord’s human generation. Thus she is the Mother of God.

“If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead.”
Gregory of Nazianzus, To Cledonius, 101 (A.D. 382)

PAX :tiphat:

Correction: active separate principle

 

[Good_Fella]

you are painting protestantism with a very broad brush. Most mainline protestants won’t expel people from their pews because of Marian beliefs. Perhaps a few firebrand Baptists but they are the exception to the rule. Marian beliefs are a cause for formal expulsion only in the RCC as far as I know.

Anglicans have diverse opinions about the Virgin Mary. Some have identical beliefs to the RCC and pray rosaries and pilgrimage to Marian shrines. Others are very reformed in their views and view her only as another good Christian wife and mother. But in Anglicanism, one’s salvation about doesn’t depend on one’s views about Mary. Diversity of belief is tolerated.

Our Lord established one universal Church on the foundation of the Apostles and through them their valid successors so that there would be a unity of faith. Our Lord does not tolerate schismatics and so-called reformers who reject the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church and prefer to formulate their own private beliefs based on their own fallible opinions. Such pride grieves our Blessed Mother.

“We are not to credit these men, nor go out from the first and the ecclesiastical tradition; nor to believe otherwise than has the churches of God have by succession transmitted to us.”
Origen, Commentary on Matthew (ante A.D. 244)

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[Dokimas]

So, you don’t accept what the Bible says? Good to know!

I try to accept what the Bible says and reject what the Bible DOES NOT say (that is false teaching claimed by people who say they are in the know). Be careful not to mix the two up. I know it’s difficult; we’re only human (as is the CC because it’s made up of people like you and me.)

 

[Dokimas]

Who was Jesus? Was he not God?

Jesus is God.​

Do you have children by procreating with your spouse? If so, if you’re the wife, you’re the Mother of your children.​

I you had a fertilized ovum placed inside you, you gave birth to the baby that grew inside you; you brought up the child — sure you’re the mom (mother) of the child, but not the Mother of the child.​

Mary was the mother of the Son of Man; she DID NOT procreate the Son of God (God the Son). She was a vessel full of grace. She had in her womb the Being that would show us all about the grace and mercy of our Creator.

 

[Reuben_J]

Mary was the vessel; she took care of baby Jesus; she ‘mothered’ Him as He grew up. However, she wasn’t a mother in the way a women’s ovum is fertilized by a sperm. She carried the Lord as a seragate, which makes her a vessel.​

She was quite a vessel, but she wasn’t the Mother of God. God didn’t need a Mother.

A vessel as in the Ark of the Covenant which carried the Ten Commandments?

If Mary is not the Mother of God, what is Jesus then? Can we separate the man Jesus from the divine Jesus that they are two different things?

I wonder if Jesus ever called Mary, mother, or every time he called her, it would be ‘woman’. It never cross my mind that Jesus did not call her mother but now after hearing this explanation it could be a possibilty.

 

[Dokimas]

so are you denying Jesus is God the Son. even the bible say Mary was his mother. look at matthew 1 vs 18 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. WHEN AS HIS MOTHER MARY WAS ESPOUSED TO JOSEPH, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD OF THE HOLY GHOST. i can find more if you like. but for your argument to work you will have to negate Jesus as the second person of the Trinity. and being a christian i dont think you will do that. there is so much to discuss here but not enough space or time i think. this subject really is motivating.

I’ve pretty much answered this question as it was asked me of someone else but let me try again.​

Let me answer it this way and I hate to do so because of how it sounds: Did the Holy Spirit have sex with Mary? Did Mary’s ovum get fertilized? If the answer to both those questions is NO (and my position would be NO) then she was the vessel chosen to bring God the Son into the world. That would make her a mom to the Son of God, not the Mother.​

Even if the Holy Spirit use her ovum to make the Human Body Jesus inhabited, that would not make her the Mother of God, but the vessel of the Body God used while being Human. She did not help created God the Son, God was not created, even in the womb of Mary.

 

[Reuben_J]

I’ve pretty much answered this question as it was asked me of someone else but let me try again.​

Let me answer it this way and I hate to do so because of how it sounds: Did the Holy Spirit have sex with Mary? Did Mary’s ovum get fertilized? If the answer to both those questions is NO (and my position would be NO) then she was the vessel chosen to bring God the Son into the world. That would make her a mom to the Son of God, not the Mother.

Is this the only criteria to call a person ‘mother’ or ‘father’? When you call God Father, does that have to follow your reasoning here, tthat God had sex with your mother? I am sorry to sound this way but I thought that is how it seems to be by your reasoning.

 

[Dokimas]

What you have asserted here was defeated in the third century as a heresy by the Church. The reason Mary was given the title “Theotokos” is because He was taken from her “seed”. He was knit together in her womb, blood of her blood, flesh of her flesh. Jesus most definely needed a mother. If He did not, He would not have created one for Himself! Sure, He could have found Himself in the form of a man fully grown, and appeared on earth, but He chose to come through humanity.

Are you saying Jesus was not Human? Jesus the Baby Human needed a mother; Jesus the Creator of the universe did not need a mother.​

Of course, Jesus could have just appeared as Melchizadeck did, having not beginning or no end. God chose differently. Mary did not help create God the Son which is implied in the term ‘Mother of God’.

 

[Dokimas]

Is this the only criteria to call a person ‘mother’ or ‘father’? When you call God Father, does that have to follow your reasoning here, tthat God had sex with your mother? I am sorry to sound this way but I thought that is how it seems to be by your reasoning.

Am I doing a bad job here of stating there are different kinds of mothers and fathers? There are those who actually ‘make’ the children. We call them biological parents. Even so, God creates the ovum and the sperm, God is the Creator Father and NO ONE is the Creator Mother. And NO ONE created God: whether it be God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.​

God use Mary to form the Human Body the Son of God would need. Mary mothered Him, for sure. She was the mother of Jesus, not the** M**other of God.​

All of this is my opinion, of course.

 

[Dokimas]

Is this the only criteria to call a person ‘mother’ or ‘father’? When you call God Father, does that have to follow your reasoning here, tthat God had sex with your mother? I am sorry to sound this way but I thought that is how it seems to be by your reasoning.

Oh, I fogot the other part of your question: as silly as it sound that God had sex with my mother, it’s as silly to say that Mary is the Mother of God. If you read carefully I have said NO such thing. We are adopted into God’s family by what Jesus calls the ‘new birth’. As Jesus told Nichodemus, we DON’T reenter our mother’s womb.

 

[freedomwriter]

I couldnt believe it when I heard this tonight!!! Mary was only a vessel for the Lord, because God put him in there.
How can one not see the Jesus is God, which means Mary is the Mother of the Lord?
I guess I’m just looking for more understanding on how Mary just doesnt seem important to some.

She is the new Eve, The Ark of the New Covenant, and the Queen Mother- all scriptually based.

Can you provide scripture that Mary was the new Eve, The Ark of the New Covenant, and the Queen Mother. By scripture Mary was a vessel used by God. We honor her by being that vessel but she was a sinner just like you and me. She had other children which doesn’t make her a perpetual virgin. We don’t pray to her so our prayers can be passed on to the Lord. I hope i dont sound like i am bashing Mary because those are not my intentions. All we have to do is go to the scriptures to read about Mary.

 

[DavidMark]

“Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm. A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.” (Revelation 11:19-12:1)

Would you believe there are other interpetations for this? Could there be someone who will listen to an alternative and complete and authoritative interpretation from the Founder of a Faith and not the followers?
Do you think something as important as the advent of Muhammad is left out?
Revelation Chapters 11 and 12 deal with the Two Witnesses whose dispensation lasts until 1260 AH/1844 CE. The twelve stars in the crown of the Woman who goes to the wilderness like Hagar, are the Twelve Imams from the Hashemite House of Muhammad. Her Child is the Báb, the One Who will arise on the Day of Resurrection, Just as Jesus did for the Jews, and reveal a new Book, and bring the Muslims to account. He comes from Iran, the symbol for which is the sun, which was on the flag before 1979. The Ottomans were symbolized by the moon, which is still on the Turkish flag. The Caliphate opposed the Imams and sought to kill them like Herod did the babes, but it’s throne is thrown down, and will not be set up again no matter how much al-Qaida wishes.

"And there was seen in His temple the ark of His Testament" [Rev. 11:19] – that is to say, the Book of His Testament will appear in His Jerusalem, the Epistle of the Covenant [1] will be established, and the meaning of the Testament and of the Covenant will become evident. The renown of God will overspread the East and West, and the proclamation of the Cause of God will fill the world. The violators of the Covenant will be degraded and dispersed, and the faithful cherished and glorified, for they cling to the Book of the Testament and are firm and steadfast in the Covenant.
[1 One of the works of Bahá’u’lláh, in which He expressly points to 'Abdu’l-Bahá as being the One to Whom all must turn after His death.]

"And there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail," [Rev. 11:19] meaning that after the appearance of the Book of the Testament there will be a great storm, and the lightnings of the anger and the wrath of God will flash, the noise of the thunder of the violation of the Covenant will resound, the earthquake of doubts will take place, the hail of torments will beat upon the violators of the Covenant, and even those who profess belief will fall into trials and temptations.(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 60)

 

[MelanieAnne]

I try to accept what the Bible says and reject what the Bible DOES NOT say (that is false teaching claimed by people who say they are in the know). Be careful not to mix the two up. I know it’s difficult; we’re only human (as is the CC because it’s made up of people like you and me.)

Then it would appear you need to read your Bible more carefully and perhaps seek instruction from those more knowledgeable when you encounter things you do not understand.

 

[Reuben_J]

Am I doing a bad job here of stating there are different kinds of mothers and fathers? There are those who actually ‘make’ the children. We call them biological parents. Even so, God creates the ovum and the sperm, God is the Creator Father and NO ONE is the Creator Mother. And NO ONE created God: whether it be God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.​

God use Mary to form the Human Body the Son of God would need. Mary mothered Him, for sure. She was the mother of Jesus, not the** M**other of God.​

All of this is my opinion, of course.

Well, friend, you cannot have it both ways. If you say Mary is not the mother of God because God did not have sex with her for her to borne Jesus, then you cannot say God is your Father for the same reason. I think you should know that when we call Mary the mother of God, it is certainly not because she mothered Jesus thorugh sexual means as much as God fathers as not throught sexual means. Yet, Mary is the mother of God because Jesus is God, because Jesus was formed in her womb.

Your only good reason here, in the other post, when you say that Mary is the mother of Jesus the man, not Jesus the God. Then you have to make a decision as you should address my earlier question: can you separate the man Jesus from the divine Jesus? Are they two separate entities? In which case you are in effect saying they are two separate entities.

It is my stance that we cannot separate the man Jesus from his divine nature, because they are both parts of him, in which therefore, we can call Mary the mother of God because Jesus is God, notwithstanding that we understand that she did not create him but still his mother all the same.

God bless.

 

[FCEGM]

Can you provide scripture that Mary was the new Eve, The Ark of the New Covenant, and the Queen Mother. By scripture Mary was a vessel used by God. We honor her by being that vessel but she was a sinner just like you and me. She had other children which doesn’t make her a perpetual virgin. We don’t pray to her so our prayers can be passed on to the Lord. I hope i dont sound like i am bashing Mary because those are not my intentions. All we have to do is go to the scriptures to read about Mary.

And those Scripture speak volumes about just who the Ark of the Covenant is. Adding a bit to what DavidMark has already presented, you just have to compare what 2 Samuel has to say about the Ark of the Covenant and St. Luke’s writing on the Blessed Virgin:

David again assembled all the picked men of Israel, thirty thousand in number. Then David and all the people who were with him set out for Baala of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which bears the name of the LORD of hosts enthroned above the cherubim. The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the LORD with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals. When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God and steadied it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the LORD was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. David was disturbed because the LORD had vented his anger on Uzzah. (The place has been called Perez-uzzah down to the present day.) David feared the LORD that day and said, “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?” So David would not have the ark of the LORD brought to him in the City of David, but diverted it to the house of Obed-edom the Gittite. The ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite for three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and his whole house. When it was reported to King David that the LORD had blessed the family of Obed-edom and all that belonged to him, David went to bring up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom into the City of David amid festivities. As soon as the bearers of the ark of the LORD had advanced six steps, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling. Then David, girt with a linen apron, came dancing before the LORD with abandon, as he and all the Israelites were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouts of joy and to the sound of the horn. As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, and she despised him in her heart. 2 Samuel 5:1-16

As they reached the threshing floor of Chidon, Uzzah stretched out his hand to steady the ark, for the oxen were upsetting it. Then the LORD became angry with Uzzah and struck him; he died there in God’s presence, because he had laid his hand on the ark. David was disturbed because the LORD’S anger had broken out against Uzzah. Therefore that place has been called Perez-uzza even to this day. David was now afraid of God, and he said, “How can I bring the ark of God with me?” Therefore he did not take the ark back with him to the City of David, but he took it instead to the house of Obed-edom the Gittite. The ark of God remained in the house of Obed-edom with his family for three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom’s household and all that he possessed. 1 Chronicles 13.

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord. . . .Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home. Luke 1:39-45, 56.

So, is it just a coincidence that St. Luke describes the visit of the Holy Virgin to Elizabeth in much the same way as the visit of the Ark of the Covenant to the house of Obed-edom? Or could it be that St. Luke was inspired to make this comparison?

 

[benidict]

I’ve pretty much answered this question as it was asked me of someone else but let me try again.​

Let me answer it this way and I hate to do so because of how it sounds: Did the Holy Spirit have sex with Mary? Did Mary’s ovum get fertilized? If the answer to both those questions is NO (and my position would be NO) then she was the vessel chosen to bring God the Son into the world. That would make her a mom to the Son of God, not the Mother.​

Even if the Holy Spirit use her ovum to make the Human Body Jesus inhabited, that would not make her the Mother of God, but the vessel of the Body God used while being Human. She did not help created God the Son, God was not created, even in the womb of Mary.

hello my friend. Jesus did assume his humanity by taking on flesh, through his mother. he is fully human, and fully divine. this is the only way he could pay for the sins of sinful humanity on the cross, also it is written that he was like us in every way except sin. God the father could have just placed him here. but instead chose to become like one of us. taking on flesh through a human parent. Mary. again as another poster put it. the heresy you follow has already been dealt with early on in christiandom. Jesus was fully human and fully divine, a faithful high priest. there was no seperation from the Godhead. and Mary as taught in the scriptures and tradition was the Mother Of God. to make her anything less is to diminish what the Creator did. it is one of those teachings in catholocism that is hard to accept for protestants. and when one is converting to catholocism it is one of the hardest concepts to grasp. the Ark Of The Covenant did bear God the Son to earth for our salvation. hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.