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Dokimas
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Once again, it would appear, the CC gives a title to a person (in this case Mary) that God does not give and that the Bible doesn’t mention and that the person would most likely reject.
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Bill_Pick
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Mother of God, You need to ALL post,Luther and other read One at time all reforum you
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lil_flower_luv
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Don’t have to. Queen Elizabeth doesn’t hold a candle to the Blessed Mother. Did Queen Elizabeth give birth to the Son of God?
Father Mateo, from Refuting the Attack on Mary:
“There is nothing is Holy Scripture to support two motherhood’s in Mary, one purely physical, the other spiritual. In the real order, these cannot be and never were separated. She is related as a person to person of God the Son. From her flesh she gave Him flesh. Mary was not an incubator. She was and is His Mother.
Martin Luther said, ‘God is born…the child who drinks from His Mother’s milk is eternal; He existed before the world’s beginning and He created Heaven and Earth…these two natures are so united that there is only one God and Lord, that Mary suckles God with her breasts, bathes God, rocks Him, and carries Him.’”
+JMJ+
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Good_Fella
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But the angel doesn’t tell Mary that she will conceive and bear a child now. He tells her that she will conceive and a bear a child some time in the future. And he doesn’t tell her exactly when. As a pious Jew, Mary would expect it to happen after the betrothal period has expired, when she and Joseph could legitimately have children in accordance with Mosaic law. Mary was troubled because she wasn’t planning on having any children in the future because of her vow of chastity. The angel clears up Mary’s misunderstanding by explaining *how * she will conceive the child. He must have been very sensitive towards Mary.
PAX :heaven:
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Good_Fella
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MelanieAnne
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We have to remember that some people just will NOT believe what their “lying eyes” tell them, even if they read it in scripture.
It all comes down to what people want to believe, in the end. Those that want to believe the unvarnished truth will go one way. Those that will pick and choose the things that appeal to them, and reject the things that do not, will go another. That’s just the way life is. People that hunt for a pastor in a church that gives a sermon that appeals to them do the same thing. That’s life in our fractured world.
What is needed is not the understanding of some particular theological truth because you can get lots of answers to that question. What is needed is for the understanding to occur that religion is not about what WE LIKE and what WE AGREE with. It is about what WE are willing to do. For God. Are we willing to change how we live our life to be closer to God? That’s what God is actually asking us to do.
Way too many people run around looking for a church that comports with what they “like” or what they “agree with”. This is one sorry legacy of Protestantism because Protestantism provided so many CHOICES! And before anyone starts screaming, I was Protestant too, once. Now I’m not.
God is God. God doesn’t need us, we need God. The reality is that our job is not to make God more like us, it is to make ourselves more like what God wants us to be. This isn’t always easy for us. It turns out that God is pretty specific, and very basic, God is someone who wants us to pay attention about getting closer to God.
We need to PAY ATTENTION to what God wants instead of arguing about all sorts of other things, whatever they are. Otherwise we’re just wasting time, we’re just wasting OUR LIFE. And that’s just silly.
It all comes down to what people want to believe, in the end. Those that want to believe the unvarnished truth will go one way. Those that will pick and choose the things that appeal to them, and reject the things that do not, will go another. That’s just the way life is. People that hunt for a pastor in a church that gives a sermon that appeals to them do the same thing. That’s life in our fractured world.
What is needed is not the understanding of some particular theological truth because you can get lots of answers to that question. What is needed is for the understanding to occur that religion is not about what WE LIKE and what WE AGREE with. It is about what WE are willing to do. For God. Are we willing to change how we live our life to be closer to God? That’s what God is actually asking us to do.
Way too many people run around looking for a church that comports with what they “like” or what they “agree with”. This is one sorry legacy of Protestantism because Protestantism provided so many CHOICES! And before anyone starts screaming, I was Protestant too, once. Now I’m not.
God is God. God doesn’t need us, we need God. The reality is that our job is not to make God more like us, it is to make ourselves more like what God wants us to be. This isn’t always easy for us. It turns out that God is pretty specific, and very basic, God is someone who wants us to pay attention about getting closer to God.
We need to PAY ATTENTION to what God wants instead of arguing about all sorts of other things, whatever they are. Otherwise we’re just wasting time, we’re just wasting OUR LIFE. And that’s just silly.
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benidict
Guest
hi dokimas, again, whats your point? also i believe queen elizabeth is anglican. so it could be she agrees with our views of Mary. dont know. 
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benidict
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hi melanieanne. i agree with you. also a former protestant. i really am coming to believe that it take God to open the eyes of people concerning Mary. i dont believe this can be accepted by the carnal mind of man. i can see by alot of these post, people who dont believe in the Churches teachings on this matter, like to use philisophical points. not sola scriptura even. the teachings of the Bible, the writings of the Church and the testimony of not only the Catholic Church fathers, but the protestant reformers too, shows clear evidence even on an intelectual level that the immaculate conception, and the perpetual virginity of Mary were actually passed down from the apostles thru the Church. like you said. we need to make ourselves more like what God wants us to be. thank you so much for your insights. love in Christ. may He bless you and yours.
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Bill_Pick
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DoKimas, Did you ever take the time to read what the reforms said about 1500 years later here what they said about Mary,read what
Martin Luther
John Calvin
Huingli
BullingerJohn Wesley its all there read it ,and see what they say its not about Roman its about Mary being the Mother of GOD
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guanophore
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Yes, but this was more to address serial polygamy (going from one relationship to the next). They did not want to choose for shepherds of God’s household one who would abandon the commitment when things got difficult.
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Bill_Pick
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guanophore, People have been trying to twist this verse from the time the Bible has been put together,Thank God you have it right.
Dokimas, you need to read this verse and understand it
Dokimas, you need to read this verse and understand it
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guanophore
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The purpose of having the male guardian as head of the family was to help prevent rash and impulsive actions by members of the household. Anyone who has known or been a teenager (especially a female) will know that such a time of life is prone to rash and thoughtless actions and expressions. the Head of the household is provided to prevent such a rash vow. If a young lady, such as Mary was, wished to make such a vow, it would be most prudent to discuss it with her elders a head of time. I would think that it would be quite inappropriate for a husband to “hear of it” from anywhere else! However, in those days, many girls were given in marriage for political and economic reasons, and the husband never intended to have relations with them. For example, David vowed never to have relations with Michal after she scolded him for his worship of God. He kept her as his wife, though.
Catholics don’t distill doctrines from the Bible, Doki, as is the habit of our separated brethren. We receive the Teaching of Jesus through the Church, to which it was committed by the Apostles. We see the doctrine reflected in the NT, but the verse is not the Source of the doctrine, Jesus is. Don’t you think Jesus would know if His mother had other kids? don’t you think the Apostles would have noticed?
I agree, but it also reflects a lifestyle for Mary. She had no intention of changing her lifestyle. She knew that married people produced babies. She was not ignorant of the facts of life, that she was betrothed, and would need to ask this of the angel. She would just assume that, since she was betrothed, the pregnancy would occur after the manner of all women. Except that she had no plan to conduct herself after that manner.
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guanophore
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guanophore
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That’s just the point though, Doki. The angel never said yet how it would happen. It would not make any sense forher to ask such a question if she was about to have maritial relations, because she had already been taught by the older women in her clan about babies, etc. She would have assumed she was going to conceive naturally.
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guanophore
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I am sure it may appear that way to you, Doki, but this title was given to Mary to combat heresies, and that is the duty to which the Church was directed by Christ. It makes no sense that you, some 1900 years later, would come along and bring the same old worn out heretical arguement, and refuse what the HS led the Church to do to refute it. I suggest you read up on the early heresies, so that you can better appreciate why this was done.
You also seem to make the error “the Bible does not mention”, which is not the case. I just read several posts with the relevant scriptures in them.
We are not dependent upon only scripture though.
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Dokimas
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I was told there is only one queen when I said “Jesus is King of kings and all you of the CC seem to think Mary is queen so is she Queen of queens.” I responded that the person who said Mary was the only queen should tell that to Q E. In context of what was being said, that was my point. My only point.
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Dokimas
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Could you ‘pretend’ for a moment. Pretend that what the CC says about Mary isn’t accurate (perpetual virginity, immacutlately conceived, never sinned, queen of heaven and earth). Would that mean that what you believe is heresy? Remember this is for the sake of argument.
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Dokimas
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“Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. "If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.” (Joh 7:16-17 NKJV)
“And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.” (Ac 2:42 NKJV)
“which all concern things which perish with the using––according to the commandments and doctrines of men?” (Col 2:22 NKJV)
“If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,” (1Ti 6:3 NKJV)
“But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance,” (2Ti 3:10 NKJV)
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and** is profitable **for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” (2Ti 3:16 NKJV)
“Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;” (2Jo 1:9-10 NKJV)
Notice how important the Scriptures are for doctrine.
Note we are to be careful of doctrines of men.I do think Jesus would know and did know if He had brothers. He acknowledged the fact in Mark 3.
Mark 3:
31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him.
32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.”
33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?”
34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!
Paul seemed to know that James was the brother of Jesus.Ga 1:19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord‘s brother.
Two of the Gospel writers knew also.Mt 13:55 "Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?
Mr 6:3 “Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” And they were offended at Him.
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benidict
Guest
ok dokimas, i get your point.lol! just took me awhile. im old and dense sometimes. forgive me.lol
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Dokimas
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Which verse is that, Bill?
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