Mary Worship

[JOL]

Just_Me_Andrew said:
Mary Worship

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There are prayers to Mary which do definitely boarder on Worship. Why not bring this prayer out in discussion:

From the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
"O, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell.
"O, well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church…
“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

Dr. Walter Martin a Protestant scholar responded to this very prayer:

To the contrary, Christ is the author and finisher of faith. Mary is not the “glory and joy and honor of Christians”—Jesus Christ is our glory. In Him is the hope of glory. He is our joy. Christ is the One we honor. Yet it is clear, just from reading this prayer, that titles are conferred upon Mary which belong to God. To “convert the wicked” is the job of the Holy Spirit, who “convicts the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.” Mary does not give comfort to all Christians. That is the very reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit—to be our “Comforter.”

In the Catholic Church the faithful say, “Our life, our sweetness and our hope, to thee we cry, poor banished children of Eve.” Even giving Mary her due right, she is not our life—Jesus Christ is our life. She is not the sweetness of our life—Jesus Christ is the sweetness of our life. Mary is not our hope because “Christ in you is the hope of glory.”

Dr. Martin was so serious about this he said:

I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.

 

[JOL]

I hope you don’t mind I brought this out here, but I believe others will be able to chime in with better words and insight than I can.

First, I too, used to believe that Catholic’s worshipped Mary, despite my growing up Catholic. When I entered the protestant arena I believed all the things they told me against the Catholic church just because of my own dislike for the Catholic church. What I came to find out is it wasn’t my dislike for the Catholic church by my anger and frustration that I was poorly catechised.

I am fully back in my Catholic faith and am thankful for the Lord’s patience as he brought me into the true fullness by taking my outside of her while I developed my relationship with Jesus.

The point of all I just said was to give you some perspective into where I am coming from.

I once mentioned to someone a certain prayer to the Blessed Mother which I thought was more of a worship than adoration as the Catholics were trying to make me believe. What the person explained to me though was that what is worship for you may not be worship for me. We, as unique human’s have our own methods of devotion to our Lord and Savior. We all feel differently, react differently, speak differently and with different words, etc. You may perceive this as worship while I may not. It, to the person who wrote the prayer may certainly be devotion to him, adoration to him. But, the prayer he says for Jesus be on an even greater level.

One thing that protestants certainly miss out on is the Communion of Saints. When we die we may not see our loved ones, but I certainly believe we are still connected to them. We are separated by death, by time, by dimension. They are with God, outside of time. But, when they die they don’t go into a nonexistance. They transition from one life to the next. So, why can’t they still pray for us? Why can’t we still ask their intercession?

Why can’t we ask Mary’s intercession?

 

[YADA]

The language is flowery. It also comes from ages past where people routinely skoke in similar fashion …

Is Jesus the author of our hope and our life? …

Yes, but this prayer recognizes that Mary was chosen to be the instrument through which Jesus enters into time … becoming man … and that is the truth behind Mary’s role in the “glory and joy and honor of Christians” …

At te wedding feast in Cana, MAry interceded between the groom and Christ … bringing his need to Jesus … in this manner Mary brought joy to the feast but that joy was brought about solely through the Lord Jesus …

Mary always points the way to the Son … if she does not [point to Jesus] … then the one who calls upon her is not Christian … Mary is the perfect model of discipleship … she said “Yes” to God, without thought to her personal desires nor her personal safety. Without her “Let it be done unto me; according to Your Word” Salvation history would [by necessity] be different … all things being possible with God, there would have been a plan but it would ot have been this one …

Similarly with Adam, the “Happy Fault” …

The Catholic Church does not worship MAry nor advocate worship of Mary … anyone who says differently is misinformed, ignorant or both …

I do not worship Mary,but she is one who is alive in Christ and as such a one, she is a member of the Communion of Saints who are told to “pray for each other” …

Mary and I will pray for you …

 

[bpbasilphx]

I don’t know ANYBODY who worships Mary with the LATREIA that belongs only to God.

If it does exist anywhere, then it is not because of the teaching of the Church, but IN SPITE OF IT.

OTOH, when I was a Baptist, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… One thing that protestants certainly miss out on is the Communion of Saints. When we die we may not see our loved ones, but I certainly believe we are still connected to them. We are separated by death, by time, by dimension. They are with God, outside of time. But, when they die they don’t go into a nonexistance. They transition from one life to the next. So, why can’t they still pray for us? Why can’t we still ask their intercession?

Why can’t we ask Mary’s intercession?

 

[peary]

**We don’t “offer sacrifices” to Mary; therefore, we are not worshipping her. ** That’s a given.

 

[Timothysis]

Mary, Joseph and the Saints all lead to Christ. It is called the Church Triumphant. How poor we would be if we didn’t have them working on our behalf. Mary is the Mother of Jesus; why would anyone not have respect for her???

 

[Rocky]

I don’t know ANYBODY who worships Mary with the LATREIA that belongs only to God.

If it does exist anywhere, then it is not because of the teaching of the Church, but IN SPITE OF IT.

OTOH, when I was a Baptist, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

What does this mean-- “saying prayers to pieces of cloth”? I am not Baptist, so I really have no idea what you mean.

 

[bpbasilphx]

What does this mean-- “saying prayers to pieces of cloth”? I am not Baptist, so I really have no idea what you mean.

**These pieces of cloth would be brought up to the front of the church and reposed there with great solemnity. The would be worshipped with ritual gestured executed in unison on the command of the leader: “Attention! Salute! Pledge!”

Oddly enough, both prayers began with the same words: “I pledge allegiance…”

If Catholics worship Mary (or statues) then Baptists say prayers to pieces of cloth.

You can’t condemn one and approve the other.**

 

[Sword_Brethren]

JOL:
that is a beautiful prayer

 

[Fergal]

***I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.

***Funny how the Anglican Communion released a pretty fine document through ,at long last stating that there is nothing anti-scriptural in any of the Marian Dogmas of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

See anglicancommunion.org/acns/news.cfm/2005/5/27/ACNS3983

 

[abucs]

I have to say that as a Catholic, i am much more focussed on the Trinity than Mary but i wonder where, theoretically worship starts ?

Is worship asking for someone’s help ?
Treating them as a divine nature ?
Giving your life to them ?
Giving your ultimate allegiance to them ?
Loving them ?

Just asking.

 

[peary]

***I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.

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The further you are from the Catholic Church, the less you will understand the Church of Christ. You have the Bible only, which is an incomplete understanding of God’s revelation to us.

 

[inJESUS]

Anything related to Mary or the saints must be understood in term of intercession, the intention of intercession, nothing more.

 

[water]

“The lifeguard had saved my life”. Everybody heard this would applaud the lifeguard.

Now, if I said “Mary saved my life”, some people would jump right on me saying “She can’t”.

I don’t understand that.

 

[inJESUS]

“The lifeguard had saved my life”. Everybody heard this would applaud the lifeguard.

Now, if I said “Mary saved my life”, some people would jump right on me saying “She can’t”.

I don’t understand that.

exactly, that is why any terms used regarding Mary or the saints are just in term of intercession.

 

[JonNC]

Help me with this - I just want to understand:

I have always been told that Catholics use terms like venerate regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, but words like worship and adoration (as is done in the presence of the Eucharist) are reserved for God. Yet this prayer says:

From the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We **adore **and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

Are there different kinds of adoration? Can you see why this might be confusing?

Jon

 

[water]

Help me with this - I just want to understand:

I have always been told that Catholics use terms like venerate regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, but words like worship and adoration (as is done in the presence of the Eucharist) are reserved for God. Yet this prayer says:

Are there different kinds of adoration? Can you see why this might be confusing?

Jon

See the KJV for similar example where English word being used in the past had different meanings:

1 Chron. 29:20 which says in the King James, "And David said to all the congregation, now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.

Old English uses the word with different meaning. Of course, no one was really worshipng the king here.

 

[peary]

Help me with this - I just want to understand:

I have always been told that Catholics use terms like venerate regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, but words like worship and adoration (as is done in the presence of the Eucharist) are reserved for God. Yet this prayer says:

Are there different kinds of adoration? Can you see why this might be confusing?

Jon

**The Church has always had its terminology in identifying these.
*Veneration *means “to bestow the greatest honor upon” while *worship/adoration *is reserved specifically for God. If you look at the sentence, it says *“We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you.” *It does not say we ‘adore’ Mary but rightly God and the gifts He has bestowed on her.

I agree it is confusing, but once you get the hang of it, you can spot the difference immediately.**

 

[JonNC]

**The Church has always had its terminology in identifying these.
*Veneration ***means “to bestow the greatest honor upon” while *worship/adoration *is reserved specifically for God. If you look at the sentence, it says *"**We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you." ***It does not say we ‘adore’ Mary but rightly God and the gifts He has bestowed on her.

I agree it is confusing, but once you get the hang of it, you can spot the difference immediately.

You are right! My bad.
Thanks,
Jon