Mary Worship

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+JMJ+
nuntym said:

“Oh, you mean you just picked up a Bible one day, not knowing it is the purported “Word of God”, without prior knowledge from other people?”

Actually I picked up a Bible as an agnostic for the purpose of attempting to disprove it … however, I discovered that it is in fact exactly what it claims to be … the very word of the Living God
Ah then, it appeared in front of you, as if it out of thin air. Really…
“Quote:
Originally Posted by Literalist
Have you ever read them and made comparisons with the Bible and with recorded history?
Woah, I thought you want to look at Scripture only?”

Now you are playing a game with your words … I have and do read volumes of many of the writings of men for gaining knowledge [event those that I disagree with]

But when it comes to the knowledge of truth there is only one source … the word of the living God contained within the Bible
And what is your authority on this?
 
+JMJ+
nuntym said:

“Oh, you mean you just picked up a Bible one day, not knowing it is the purported “Word of God”, without prior knowledge from other people?”

Actually I picked up a Bible as an agnostic for the purpose of attempting to disprove it … however, I discovered that it is in fact exactly what it claims to be … the very word of the Living God
Ah…but you took up the Bible to disprove it…which means you heard from some people that it was the purported Word of God…my goodness, the beginning of tradition.
“Quote:
Originally Posted by Literalist
Have you ever read them and made comparisons with the Bible and with recorded history?
Woah, I thought you want to look at Scripture only?”

Now you are playing a game with your words … I have and do read volumes of many of the writings of men for gaining knowledge [event those that I disagree with]

But when it comes to the knowledge of truth there is only one source … the word of the living God contained within the Bible
And what is your authority on this?
 
And what is your authority on this?

The Word of the living God … the Bible
 
I am posting the topical subject “The Bible Prophets” for those who have an interest

Section of the forum:

Non-Catholic Religions > The Bible Prophets

I will not be posting on this thread any longer
 
For a catholic, the Bible does not claim itself to be “all sufficient,” therefore, it is not. But, what is the implication here? That there are certain Christian doctrines only revealed through the catholic faith? Oh! What a spirit of pride and superiority one puts on when he believes himself righteous through anything else but Christ Himself!
You realize the irony in this statement, right? First, doctrines that you follow, such as Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, are supported by isolated Scripture verses, but then refuted by others. Thus, these doctrines came from others, namely the Reformers, and you follow them. Simply because you can point to a verse does not make it ‘from the Bible only’. It is an interpretation of the Bible that was proliferated by a man, and you believe it. You are doing exactly what you claim Catholics do, except you don’t do it as an entire unified Church, but rather as small divisions who pick and choose from theological schools with little-to-no rhyme to the reason.

Secondly, Scripture itself tells us to appoint teachers and learned men. It also gives us an outline for resolving disputes, found in Acts 15. We are even told to take disputes to the church, the pillar and foundation of truth. So, if the Apostles wanted men appointed to look after and teach when they were dead and gone, and gave them a way to resolve disputes, why would this somehow not apply? Because you said so?

Thirdly, their have been bishops since Apostolic times. They are even seen in Scripture. From the early Church, they resolved theological disputes. The earliest Christians outside of the Apostles taught to be obedient to them. Disputes were to be resolved by these bishops.

So, if history and Scripture both coincide and point to ‘appointed men’ making theological decisions for disputes not addressed in Scripture, and you yourself (along with all Protestants) take theological positions posited by the interpretation of Scripture by mere men, why is the Church’s position wrong?
 
And what is your authority on this?

The Word of the living God … the Bible
Actually, Literalist, the Word of the Living God is Jesus,** not the Bible.**

What you proclaim above comes quite close to bibliolatry: worship of the Bible.:eek:
 
You realize the irony in this statement, right? First, doctrines that you follow, such as Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, are supported by isolated Scripture verses, but then refuted by others. Thus, these doctrines came from others, namely the Reformers, and you follow them. Simply because you can point to a verse does not make it ‘from the Bible only’. It is an interpretation of the Bible that was proliferated by a man, and you believe it. You are doing exactly what you claim Catholics do, except you don’t do it as an entire unified Church, but rather as small divisions who pick and choose from theological schools with little-to-no rhyme to the reason.

Secondly, Scripture itself tells us to appoint teachers and learned men. It also gives us an outline for resolving disputes, found in Acts 15. We are even told to take disputes to the church, the pillar and foundation of truth. So, if the Apostles wanted men appointed to look after and teach when they were dead and gone, and gave them a way to resolve disputes, why would this somehow not apply? Because you said so?

Thirdly, their have been bishops since Apostolic times. They are even seen in Scripture. From the early Church, they resolved theological disputes. The earliest Christians outside of the Apostles taught to be obedient to them. Disputes were to be resolved by these bishops.

So, if history and Scripture both coincide and point to ‘appointed men’ making theological decisions for disputes not addressed in Scripture, and you yourself (along with all Protestants) take theological positions posited by the interpretation of Scripture by mere men, why is the Church’s position wrong?
For me, it simply comes down to trusting in an ALL sufficient God, so certainly His Word is as well. All that is necessary, which to me, is the most important word in reference to Scripture only.
 
For me, it simply comes down to trusting in an ALL sufficient God, so certainly His Word is as well. All that is necessary, which to me, is the most important word in reference to Scripture only.
Indeed.

But you have simply accepted a man-made tradition that His Word is contained ONLY to the Scripture.

That is something that you merely heard a man say, who heard another man say, but no one ever read: “God’s Word was contained wholly and entirely to the Scriptures” in a single page of the Bible.
 
**Where is it then? I need a verse

Call no man Father- Then forget about calling your dad “dad” because “dad” in essence is the simpler version of "Father. Don’t call the American founding Fathers, the founding fathers because that is a violation as well. Don’t call the Church Fathers “Fathers” (Such as Augustine) because this is then a violation of Call no man Father. Don’t call Your Pastor “Reverend” because Only one PERSON could ever merit the title of Reverend and that is Our LORD. Don’t call Your Pastor “Pastor” because there is only one Shepherd and that is JESUS.

The True Presence of CHRIST in the EUCHARIST- Read John 6. Also read the account of the Last Supper. JESUS never said “This represents my Body” or “This is a symbol of my Body”, HE said 'THIS I]IS** MY BODY". HE then gave this command “Do this in rememberance of ME”. Hence the reason the Church does this every Sunday, and evn every day. To fulfill the Divine Command and to renew the New, Eternal and Saving Covenant written by the PRECIOUS BLOOD of CHRIST upon Calvary.

St. Peter as the First Pope- “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I shall build my Church”. The whole Petros vs Petras arguement doesn’t hold due to gender specific nouns. Also, Our LORD said to St. Peter "I Give YOU the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. “Whatever YOU bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth, shalt be loosed in Heaven”. Why on earth would Our LORD bother adressing Peter this way? Why does Peter always appear with John the Beloved and James? Why does Our LORD tell Peter to FEED MY SHEEP. Why wouldn’t Our LORD tell all the 11 that? Why did HE pull Peter aside and tell Him this, alone? Of course Peters faith faltered, but so does ours. Peter went out of this world on an upside down Crucifix. The Humility of St. Peter is astouding. He told His executioners that “I am not worthy to die in the same manner as my LORD”. When Our Humility becomes thus, then we can point fingers at how weak or strong someones faith is, even then we shouldn’t.

Sacrament of Confession- HE breathed on them and said “Recieve the HOLY SPIRIT. Whomevers sins YOU forgive are forgiven. Whomevers Sins ***YOU *** reatin, are retained”. Our LORD never gave us this command as laymen because we don’t have the authority to forgive sins. HE did give it to the assembled 11. Why did He bother saying this? Why would Our LORD apparently spit air for no reason? HE didn’t because HE gave His Apostoles and all those who would be ordained through the line of Apostolic succession the power to forgive sins in HIS NAME.

Holy MASS- Scott Hahn, a very, very sharp Catholic theologian once went to a Catholic MASS. As a Protestant, He thought this was THE ultimate act of blasphemy. However, curiosity drew him in. He attended and He was shocked at how Biblical the MASS was, and how often Catholics use the Bible at the MASS. Protestants use it for 2% of their Services. Catholics use it 26% (For reading) and this does NOT include the vast number of Biblical and Early Christian prayers during the MASS, e.g. at the Canon or the Eucharistic Prayer.

So which is more biblical? A Group that splintered from the Only True Church? Martin Luther should be accused of Dishonesty. Martin Luther added the word “Alone” to Romans 3:28. Dishonest Much? You know that the very Bible You use to slam the Catholic Church is the same Bible that the Catholic Church put together, and it is for this reason that You are able to hold one in your hands? (Albeit a chopped up, dishonest 7 book missing version) Our LORD had the Bible written for the Church, not the Church for the Bible.

Finally, Sacred Tradition is clearly stated by St. Paul in Thesselonians 2:15. "Therefore Brethren, hold fast to the Traditions! which YOU have been taught. There was no bible at this time remember. So what on earth could St. Paul have meant if not for the Traditions of the Church? Another fact to remember, the True Church of Our LORD is not divided. Protestantism is so divided that Protestantism alone (Not including baptists, lutheran, calvinists, pentecostals etc.) has 30,000 different spin-offs. Not only this, but to add to the confusion that each of these 30,000 ALL say that THEY are the ones who interpret the Bible correctly. So then which one? Because some of them agree to contradictory tenets (Depending on how conservative or liberal the group is). The True Church, the One, Holy,Catholic and Apostolic Church is one and undivided. We have held fast even against the Protestant reformation. We have held fast against everything thrown at us. We will continue to do so. For this reason, the Catholic Church is the Sole True Church, and the Only Church that can claim to be “Truly Biblical”.
I have no problem with how catholics worship,I don’t even mind that catholics have absolute faith that theirs is as perfect as it gets. Nor have i ever had a problem with what you call a priest. I call them Father with all the respect they deserve. Traditions/rituals are fine as long as they glorify our Lord Jesus Christ.

I also never claimed to be sola scripture. Maybe clsoe to it , but not 100%. Simply because it is the Word of God which I hold above all men, no matter how sincere or 'holy" they are.

This was supposed to be about Mary, which seems to be a very major trouble point between those who follow the catholic traditions and those who do not. In what you and other catholics have written, it seems that Scripture takes a second place to traditions and extra-bibical writing and even visions.

I find that troubling. You don’t.

So stop your screaming at me. and be at peace with our God.
 
I have no problem with how catholics worship,I don’t even mind that catholics have absolute faith that theirs is as perfect as it gets.
This is not a correct explication of the Catholic faith, Doxie.

The Church has never proclaimed that her faith is perfect.

In fact, she acknowledges that it is imperfect.

From the CCC:
825 “The Church on earth is endowed already **with a sanctity that is real though imperfect.” **In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: “Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect.”
Nor have i ever had a problem with what you call a priest. I call them Father with all the respect they deserve.
👍
Traditions/rituals are fine as long as they glorify our Lord Jesus Christ.
:dancing:
I also never claimed to be sola scripture. Maybe clsoe to it , but not 100%. Simply because it is the Word of God which I hold above all men, no matter how sincere or 'holy" they are.
True, this.

However, the Word of God is not contained to ONLY the written word.

That is a man-made tradition.
This was supposed to be about Mary, which seems to be a very major trouble point between those who follow the catholic traditions and those who do not. In what you and other catholics have written, it seems that Scripture takes a second place to traditions and extra-bibical writing and even visions.
No, Doxie.

No Catholic ought to be holding private revelation (visions) above the Scriptures.

And Sacred Tradition is different from traditions or customs.
 
This was supposed to be about Mary, which seems to be a very major trouble point between those who follow the catholic traditions and those who do not. In what you and other catholics have written, it seems that Scripture takes a second place to traditions and extra-bibical writing and even visions.
In regards to the thread, “Mary Worship,” I have received responses that confirm many things of Mary that is not Biblical. For me, it comes down to Mary’s prayer in Luke: my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior.” **Only sinners need a Savior. I trust God’s Word when it gives no exaggerated adoration, worship or mention of Mary. I trust that if Mary was to be prayed to, the Bible would say so. I trust that if Mary was sinless, the Bible would say so. I trust that if Mary is “our hope, our sweetness,” the Bible would say so.
**

The Bible DOES say so, but you all don’t want to believe it.

Your entire faith is rooted on the (correct!) assumption that Jesus is the Christ. But your sole authority is the Bible, so in order to justify your own faith, you need to be able to explain from the Old Testament why Jesus is the Christ and why the New Testament is thus true.

The Immaculate Conception is necessary for Jesus to be the Christ. (Why?) So is Mary’s perpetual virginity. (Why?) The Word of God ties both of these truths to key Old Testament prophecies that identify Who is the Christ. If Mary is not the fulfillment of these prophecies, then Jesus is just a nice misunderstood rabbi and not your Savior. (And if you disagree, you are welcome to try and come up with some other way besides Mary to make Jesus walk through the Temple Gate or crush the serpent. But I’m not holding my breath.)

You’re correct when you say that God is all sufficient and doesn’t need any creatures in order to accomplish His will. That’s absolutely true, BUT God has nevertheless FREELY CHOSEN to make certain creatures, especially His Mother, part of the plan of salvation, and the Bible reflects that. You and I are not free to disregard what God has ordained. To do so knowingly would be to do what the devil did that got him thrown out of heaven–pride.
 
Sigh.

I don’t notice that any of our respected Protestant brothers or sisters have stated that Catholic teaching is that Mary is God and cited the relevant passage in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (easily found on-line so that said passage could be easily shown IF it existed). . .

Or that Mary is to be worshipped as God (ditto on the passage that could be shown IF it existed). . .

So the whole huge claim/counterclaim/scripture citations/refutations etc., are all built on a big giant strawman of an ASSUMPTION (no pun intended) that Catholics worship Mary as if she were God, and that when Catholics deny it they either deceptive because they do and they’re lying about it, or that they’re so dumb they somehow worship her without knowing it, or that they’ve been ‘brainwashed’ into thinking what they do isn’t worship but somehow it really ‘is’ and once they are rescued by the protestants they will see da truth and reject their papist ways. . .

All hooey of course but it’s often been said, "A lie repeated often enough will start to be accepted as truth’. . .
 
In my absence, my motive for withdrawing from this discussion has been judged incorrectly. My time of reflection and prayer was motivated by God and His Word: “test everything that is said.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21. We test in order to know the truth.

Right…but how do you test the truth?

From 1john 4…Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

How is one to test the spirit? See verse 6, and it does say to read or consult the Bible but…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
Ultimately, the search for truth will come down to final Authority and that is where two paths diverge: Authority to both Scripture and tradition (Catholic) and Scripture alone (Protestant). The risk of choosing one path over the other is a matter of life and death.
 
Sigh.

I don’t notice that any of our respected Protestant brothers or sisters have stated that Catholic teaching is that Mary is God and cited the relevant passage in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (easily found on-line so that said passage could be easily shown IF it existed). . .

Or that Mary is to be worshipped as God (ditto on the passage that could be shown IF it existed). . .

So the whole huge claim/counterclaim/scripture citations/refutations etc., are all built on a big giant strawman of an ASSUMPTION (no pun intended) that Catholics worship Mary as if she were God, and that when Catholics deny it they either deceptive because they do and they’re lying about it, or that they’re so dumb they somehow worship her without knowing it, or that they’ve been ‘brainwashed’ into thinking what they do isn’t worship but somehow it really ‘is’ and once they are rescued by the protestants they will see da truth and reject their papist ways. . .

All hooey of course but it’s often been said, "A lie repeated often enough will start to be accepted as truth’. . .
And an even bigger (but correct!) assumption that Jesus is the Christ without understanding the Old Testament prophecies that make Him so. Many of which require the Marian doctrines to have Christ as their fulfillment.
 
Sigh.

I don’t notice that any of our respected Protestant brothers or sisters have stated that Catholic teaching is that Mary is God and cited the relevant passage in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (easily found on-line so that said passage could be easily shown IF it existed). . .

Or that Mary is to be worshipped as God (ditto on the passage that could be shown IF it existed). . .

So the whole huge claim/counterclaim/scripture citations/refutations etc., are all built on a big giant strawman of an ASSUMPTION (no pun intended) that Catholics worship Mary as if she were God, and that when Catholics deny it they either deceptive because they do and they’re lying about it, or that they’re so dumb they somehow worship her without knowing it, or that they’ve been ‘brainwashed’ into thinking what they do isn’t worship but somehow it really ‘is’ and once they are rescued by the protestants they will see da truth and reject their papist ways. . .

All hooey of course but it’s often been said, "A lie repeated often enough will start to be accepted as truth’. . .
Glad you noted it. 🙂
 
For me, it simply comes down to trusting in an ALL sufficient God, so certainly His Word is as well. All that is necessary, which to me, is the most important word in reference to Scripture only.
Before I begin, I must point out that you did not address a single one of my points.

Now, you say that you trust in an ALL sufficient God, and His Word, so that all necessity for faith is found in reference to Scripture. Trusting in an all sufficient God is fine. In fact, Catholics do, too. In fact, we trust that God is sufficient in an even more visible way that Protestants. We trust that He is powerful enough to lead us as a whole to Truth, and that He actually gave us the ability to remain one (unity was very important to Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and to the early Fathers). So, in essence, we trust in an all sufficient God in an even more radical way than Protestants.

You state that you believe that Scripture is literally the only reference for faith. This, in itself, opposes Paul’s orders to appoint elders that would teach. Scripture, at that point, wasn’t even canonized. The early Church had no idea what was Scripture and what wasn’t. Many of the first several centuries of Christians considered Barnabas’ writings to be inspired, as well as the Apocalypse of Peter, Clement’s epistle, and a few more. Most in the early Church actually DIDN’T consider John’s Apocalypse to be inspired.

So we have a conundrum. The early Church, AFTER the apostles were dead and gone, had no idea what was inspired and what was not in the NEW TESTAMENT. Later, after the Jews began using only Hebrew books as inspired canon, the Church became divided on the Greek Old Testament vs the Pharasitic Hebrew Old Testament. This created further issues on the inspiration of Scripture.

How did the Church decide which books were canononical? In exactly the same manner that was prescribed since the beginning: councils. They determined the canon of Scripture by setting up requirements and taking from tradition. They came to the current Catholic conclusion universally around 393 AD (though one can find the same canon affirmed in previous councils).

So, you, and all Protestants, know that the Bible is inspired… because you trust in the Tradition of a unified Church that came to a conclusion through theological councils. Further, because your version of Scripture excludes seven books from the original Greek Old Testament based on Luther’s assertions, you follow an additional man-made tradition that was never affirmed by any theological council whatsoever (though at Trent, the 1200 year-old canon was affirmed again).

And, if you are a Trinitarian Christian, you believe in another conciliar dogma. ‘Trinity’ is not found in Scripture. The Trinity is clear in Scripture, but in the same way councils and bishops and Tradition are found in Scripture. So you hold to certain conciliar dogma, but you base this on… wait for it… the traditions of individual men with no Scriptural authority whatsoever.

I could go on (consubstantiation, OSAS, double negative predestination, non-necessity of baptism, ect., are all Protestant dogma that is not found in Scripture explicitly, but is an interpretation of Scripture by individuals), but I think you get the point. You DO NOT believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. You have taken select doctrine, proliferated from other individuals who read the Bible, and have proclaimed them directly from Scripture. In essence, you (Protestants in general) have done exactly what you accuse the Catholic Church of doing, except on a much smaller, far less unified scale.

Where is the logical sequence in this reasoning? I am not seeing it. This is why, even when I was cold in my faith, I never seriously considered Protestantism of any kind. It makes no sense to me.
 
I am posting the topical subject “The Bible Prophets” for those who have an interest

Section of the forum:

Non-Catholic Religions > The Bible Prophets

I will not be posting on this thread any longer
But there are questions you have not answered. 🤷
 
For me, it simply comes down to trusting in an ALL sufficient God, so certainly His Word is as well. All that is necessary, which to me, is the most important word in reference to Scripture only.
Where is that in Scripture again?
 
I am posting the topical subject “The Bible Prophets” for those who have an interest

Section of the forum:

Non-Catholic Religions > The Bible Prophets

I will not be posting on this thread any longer
This forum is for dialogue, not preaching or trying to convert Catholics.
I suggest you get with the program.
 
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