Mary Worship

[pablope]

Your entire original post was full of logical fallacies, to include deliberately misrepresenting the other’s position in order to make your point.

The logic of asking you where the Trinity is proclaimed in the Bible is simple. If it was not, then someone outside of the Bible had to decide on it. Who was it? Did God come back and proclaim the Trinity to someone, who just couldn’t be bothered to write it down in Sacred Scripture, or was it decided upon by a ecumenical council under the authority of the Catholic Church?

Christ never promised us a Bible, neither did the Father. What Christ did promise us is a Church; a Church He said would speak for him, and would have the authority to bind and loose, to forgive sins in His name, etc.

And that Church was responsible for compiling the early Christian writings, sifting through each of them…and decided what books/writings should all be in the Bible…so I wonder which Church is that?

 

[Jeanne_S]

pablope;10480611:

A catholics attachment to Mary should be examined. The reluctance to set her aside is quite noticeable and I can only imagine there are other factors at play (childhood relationship with mother).

Do you believe that Jesus would have asked us to pray to Mary if He thought it was so necessary and important? But, nothing is said of her in Paul’s letters and Jesus, Himself, never showed her the adoration and worship that you hear from these prayers found online.

We pray for those around us. We don’t pray to Mary. She died and was saved by Jesus Christ.

In all charity,I have to say,that your understanding of Marian devotion is being clouded by your prejudices.I find it stunning that now you are implying that there is a psychological component thatthose who honore and love Mary,somehow have issues with their own mothers? Talk about a red herring

 

[jwinch2]

And that Church was responsible for compiling the early Christian writings, sifting through each of them…and decided what books/writings should all be in the Bible…so I wonder which Church is that?

Exactly. So when that same Church states something doctrinal in nature, perhaps we ought to listen.

Peace,

 

[adrift]

Catholics defend they do not worship Mary but their actions, especially of the extravagant prayers I heard this weekend, speak otherwise.

Worship:

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

As someone who was interested and attracted to the Catholic faith, the validity of it has been undermined by the worship (as seen in the definition) of Mary. There are other issues I have: confession to a priest, Mass, infant baptism, pope infallibility.

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).

You have the correct definition of worship. The one I highlighted is the one meant when we say we worship God and the one I assume you are concerned with when you say we worship Mary. Nothing you have written comes even close to showing that we believe that Mary is a divine being. In other words, a person who worships has to tell you that they believe what they worship is a god. So your definition fails to provide evidence of worship. In fact, you will not find Catholic saying Mary is god so by your definition as you provided we do not worship Mary.

Yet, Jesus was not given this much attention

You said the rosary was prayed 10 times and yet you didn’t see Jesus given much attention How is that possible???

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).

Where in Scripture do you find that everything is to be based on Scripture?

Do a search of this site most of what you have written has been defended many many times.

 

[inChristAlone33]

Show me where sola scriptura is. Another piece of food for thought is that when You ask someone to pray for you in your congregation, You are interceding and are thus violating “We have only one mediator”. Otherwise, you must admit that we do the same thing as you, its just that we pray to people who are definitely saved.

“Jesus represents those who have placed their trust in Him—miserable sinners—before God’s throne of grace.” gotquestions.org/Jesus-mediator.html

As a Christian, you are to put your full faith and trust in Christ alone. For it is through Him, we made righteous and He only hears the prayers of the righteous (John 9:31). So, in fact, God listens to us because of the righteousness of our Mediator, Jesus Christ.

apart from me you can do nothing.(John 15:5) and this includes praying for others. In all things, Christ is our only good.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (ESV)
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21)

 

[inChristAlone33]

inChristAlone33;10480669:

In all charity,I have to say,that your understanding of Marian devotion is being clouded by your prejudices.I find it stunning that now you are implying that there is a psychological component thatthose who honore and love Mary,somehow have issues with their own mothers? Talk about a red herring

I do not wish to go off topic with that particular element to faith but I suspect it has some bearing on many Catholics, though they know it not.

(I was not writing with intention of issues but rather needs of a person.)

 

[inChristAlone33]

That is right…you should also pray for understanding.

But how do you avoid self deception?

Then from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

How do you think you should apply that passage above so that you are not deceived?

I have prayed for understanding and I am sure you have as well.

I actually just read 1 John last night and I have always held this verse close to me:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" .John 14:6

God’s word is able to save us. What does that mean? First, we are born again by receiving the truth about Jesus Christ as the Son of God and accepting His sacrifice for our sins. We must be willing to hear the truth about our own life of sin and the truth about who Jesus is and what He did.

We must also be humble enough to confess our sins and turn from them to Christ for cleansing and new birth. This means we must not only hear the truth but do what the truth requires.
If we only hear and do not apply the truth, we are deceived. We really deceive ourselves, because only knowing about truth cannot save us!

 

[inChristAlone33]

You have the correct definition of worship. The one I highlighted is the one meant when we say we worship God and the one I assume you are concerned with when you say we worship Mary. Nothing you have written comes even close to showing that we believe that Mary is a divine being. In other words, a person who worships has to tell you that they believe what they worship is a god. So your definition fails to provide evidence of worship. In fact, you will not find Catholic saying Mary is god so by your definition as you provided we do not worship Mary.

You said the rosary was prayed 10 times and yet you didn’t see Jesus given much attention How is that possible???

Where in Scripture do you find that everything is to be based on Scripture?

Do a search of this site most of what you have written has been defended many many times.

I would encourage you to go to that page I provided and read some of the prayers to Mary. Not only are they idolatrous but anti-Mary because she would never have wanted such prayers given to her. It is quite concerning that so many can read those prayers and not see the worship and adoration of Mary.

It is been defended without Scripture and there is no truth in it. Mary worship is idolatry.

 

[adrift]

I would encourage you to go to that page I provided and read some of the prayers to Mary. Not only are they idolatrous but anti-Mary because she would never have wanted such prayers given to her. It is quite concerning that so many can read those prayers and not see the worship and adoration of Mary.

It is been defended without Scripture and there is no truth in it. Mary worship is idolatry.

I didn’t find any prayers on the site you listed but I did find a lot of falsehoods. Again according to the definition that you provided you must believe that what you are worshipping is a god. Provide any place in the Catholic Church that Mary is a god. You can’t therefore you are breaking the commandment of bearing false witness. You are not presenting what we believe.

 

[adrift]

Jesus says that the Bible is God’s Words (John 10:35), so anything that contradicts His Word is error.

John 10:35

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

Don’t see where Jesus is talking about the Bible which didn’t exist as we know it today. The only Scripture that existed was the Old Testament. It didn’t exist in the form we have now either. They didn’t even know which Scripture was inspired and which wasn’t.

 

[adrift]

“For wherever two or more are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them” (Matt. 18:20).

God is the God of the Living not the Dead. According to Scripture, you are not Dead if you are with God.

What is the biblical reason Catholics pray to saints for intercession

You didnt answer me about the rosary.

You said the rosary was prayed 10 times and yet you didn’t see Jesus given much attention How is that possible???

I am going to say this one more time

CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY. THERE IS NO WORSHIP OF MARY BY CATHOLICS

To continue to write that we do will only get you banned.

 

[BluesPicker]

As a rededicated Christian, I have come to appreciate Catholicism through reading “Imitation of Christ,” by Kempis. I was not raised Catholic but in the Assembly of God, and I was familiar with the criticism of the Catholic faith.

As many of you have seen on this board, Catholicism is highly debated and rebuked in the Protestant churches and most Catholics simply do not “see” the justification of these rebukes.

For me, my main concern and suspicion of the Catholic faith is the emphasis of Mary: praying to and worship of. Recently, I was at an event that was centered on prayer and one prayer to Mary included terms like “Queen of Heaven, free of original sin, Perpetual Virgin,” etc. Not to mention that the Rosary was prayed 10 times, about 15 sets.

None of which is Biblical but based on tradition.

Yet, Jesus was not given this much attention.

Catholics defend they do not worship Mary but their actions, especially of the extravagant prayers I heard this weekend, speak otherwise.

Worship:

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

As someone who was interested and attracted to the Catholic faith, the validity of it has been undermined by the worship (as seen in the definition) of Mary. There are other issues I have: confession to a priest, Mass, infant baptism, pope infallibility.

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).

Just remember Christ did not live a book, He left a Church.  The rest should be abundantly clear.

BP

 

[inChristAlone33]

Are you one who is to judge?

I found this online: “Judge Words and Deeds, not motive and intent,” so I will concede
that the psychological remark was of motive, and not deeds. It was wrong of me to judge the intent, so please forgive me.

Is everything Jesus said or did recorded in Scripture? Paul went on three missionary journeys…is everything he said recorded in the Bible?

**I trust that if God wanted me to pray to Mary, His Word would say so.
**

Do you trust this too?

Do you think Mary is in heaven or not? And those in heaven, are they alive or dead?

Do you think angels can hear us here on earth? Can angels talk to us here on earth?

And besides, do you know Mary cannot hear us? Who told you this?

Jesus is enough for me. All I want is Jesus. Nothing else matters…angels, saints, Mary. Why do we concern ourselves with things that do not matter?

youtube.com/watch?v=wS4JQi4dgvg

Again…I asked…what is wrong with asking Mary for the sinners of the world?

It is contrary to Scripture. (Note that I did not say absent but contrary) That is enough for me to avoid doing it.

Quote:
You pray " Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

This is from Luke 1…so can you tell me what is wrong with quoting scripture?

Luke 1 was not a prayer but a greeting. Jesus did not command us to pray to Mary, nor did any apostle. God’s Word tells us to pray only to the Father (Matthew 6:9)

If God is sufficient for us, there is no need to pray to Mary.

What do you find wrong or erroneous with asking Mary to pray for the sinners of the world? Are you not a sinner? Do you see anything wrong with Mary praying for you that you not sin anymore?

I find it to be wrong doctrine. Why is judging doctrine so important? Because there are doctrines that can jeopardize your faith and even your salvation. “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (II John 1:9-11)

 

[adrift]

It is contrary to Scripture. (Note that I did not say absent but contrary) That is enough for me to avoid doing it.

You haven’t presented scripture that supports this statement.
You have not answered the questions I posed.
Show me where in scripture that everything is found in Scripture. In fact, the opposite is supported by Scripture.

And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”

His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter

Jesus told His mother that it wasn’t time but He didn’t anyway at His mother’s request.

I trust that if God wanted me to pray to Mary, His Word would say so.

God does tell you. He tells you through His Church

19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[pablope]

I found this online: “Judge Words and Deeds, not motive and intent,” so I will concede

that the psychological remark was of motive, and not deeds. It was wrong of me to judge the intent, so please forgive me.

 

[inChristAlone33]

I will be stepping away for a time of prayer and reflection. I will also be praying for those who have participated and read this thread that we be guided by Christ’s truth and nothing else. If we all claim to have the truth (Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Mormon, Buddhist, Atheist), many of us are self-deceived.

I have written that victorious living is knowing a truth from a lie and I pray God’s Grace upon you all, and myself, that we know the Truth and be set free.

"Jesus declared, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’ John 3:3

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I will be stepping away for a time of prayer and reflection. I will also be praying for those who have participated and read this thread that we be guided by Christ’s truth and nothing else. If we all claim to have the truth (Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Mormon, Buddhist, Atheist), many of us are self-deceived.

I have written that victorious living is knowing a truth from a lie and I pray God’s Grace upon you all, and myself, that we know the Truth and be set free.

"Jesus declared, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’ John 3:3

Thank you for the prayers. I, and I’m sure others, will pray for you as well. Come back soon.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

One more quick thought you may wish to meditate on while you pray. Jesus could never have come and died for our sins without Mary’s full cooperation with God’s grace. Without her, we would have no savior. She too lost a beloved son.

That is what finally convinced me she deserved not just my respect and admiration, but also my love. God bless you.

 

[Jeanne_S]

One more quick thought you may wish to meditate on while you pray. Jesus could never have come and died for our sins without Mary’s full cooperation with God’s grace. Without her, we would have no savior. She too lost a beloved son.

That is what finally convinced me she deserved not just my respect and admiration, but also my love. God bless you.

Add to this,Christ gave her to us from the Cross. She is our spiritual mother.We show our love for Christ by loving His Mother.I really don’t understand why this is such a problem for Protestants.

 

[Mark121359]

Do you say this of your own or have others taught you to say this? Mary’s “rightful spot” is to be venerated, honored and adored for her position as the Father’s Daughter, the Son’s Mother, and the Holy Spirit’s Immaculate Spouse. She, a human being like us, bore the Incarnate Word of God for 9 months. Detract personally from her veneration if you like, but don’t make radical sweeping statements like the one you made. I, not a mention probably a thousandful of other Catholics, find that statement very disrespectful.

Amen!