Mary Worship

[adrift]

I have never said that we worship Mary as God and I’m getting tired of you saying that I did.

You haven’t?

Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God.

You insist on saying we worship Mary. Since the definition is honor and reverence and respect due to God than when it is stated that we worship Mary the only conclusion is that you consider Mary a god.

The OP started the thread out with that definition. You yourself posted the same definition. Either you are working with another definition which you have not expressed or you agree with the definition.

 

[JM3]

You haven’t?

You insist on saying we worship Mary. Since the definition is honor and reverence and respect due to God than when it is stated that we worship Mary the only conclusion is that you consider Mary a god.

The OP started the thread out with that definition. You yourself posted the same definition. Either you are working with another definition which you have not expressed or you agree with the definition.

No, I haven’t.

What I said is that “special devotion” is one of the definitions of worship, so in that sense we worship Mary. You, yourself said the same thing in post 139,

When Catholics refer to worship this is what they mean

Quote:
]WORSHIPAcknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)

the OP defined worship only as adoration as you did. We do not adore Mary we venerate her.

Here was my definition of worship from post 126:

wor·ship - noun

Definition of WORSHIP

1 chiefly British: a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)

2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence

3 a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual

4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

worship - verb

Definition of WORSHIP

transitive verb

1 to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power

2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

Which you replied,

No does not apply

and, then you post the same definition in post 139.

I think you’re play mind games with me.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

How does an obscure site with copy-pasted Rosary prayers prove that the Church requires it of Catholics?

Definition of WORSHIP

1
chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2
: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

The four differences in meaning should tell you what I, as an English grad, already knew. Word definitions are arbitrary and are bound to change across time.

Do you want a basic lecture on linguistic theory as well?

Intercessory prayer of Mary is not Biblical.

Neither is shaving.

 

[maryj]

Well…typology…I do not really know of at all.

Typology: The Old Testament(OT) prepared the way for the New Testament(NT). Persons and events, in the OT prefigured, foreshadowed, anticipated, and symbolized persons and events in the NT. "The new testament lies hidden in the old and the old testament is unveiled in the new.

The OT persons and events are called “types” of the NT persons and events that they prefigure. A type is a prophetic foreshadowing of the NT counterpart. The CCC has a brief but excellent section on OT types in numbers 128-130.
To fully understand the OT we must read it in terms of types. Typology shows many NT doctrines, including Mary’s privleges.
The NT requires that we read the OT in a typological sense. Consider these:

Mathew 12;40 Jesus teaches that Jonah’s three days in the belly of the great fish foreshadowed Jesus’ three days in the tomb.
In John 3:14, Jesus says that the bronze serpent of numbers 21:9 symbolized his crucifiction
In Peter 3:1921, St. peter points out that the flood in the time of Noah prefigured christian baptism.
In 1corinthians 10:4, St. Paul calls the rock that followed the Israelites in the desert “Christ”. Notice he does not say tthat the rock was like christ, St. paul says the rock was Christ. He uses this language to stress that the relationship between a type and it NT fulfillment is more than a similarity.
In Romans 5:14, St. Paul specifically calls adam a type of christ

These examples show how the NT teaches that in the OT persons and events, we are to see doctrines that are made more explicit in the gospel. Thus, to be faithful to the NT, we should seek to appreciate the rich typology found in the OT.

There are three major OT types of Mary:
Eve
the ark of the covenant
the Queen Mother

off to Mass, more later!! God Bless

 

[Paddy_Walker]

I have a great deal of respect for Kempis, so I can understand the adoration of the saints. Yet, the Scripture is silent on Mary worship and I am curious why saints have felt the need to speak of her in such ways?

To me, Mary worship distracts from Jesus. Most would argue that through Mary, we look to Jesus but I would say to that: why not in Christ alone?

When you must ADD onto the Word, you find false doctrine.

luke:

Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

The Hail Mary

…blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.

catholicism does what Mary predicted. does protestantism do what Mary predicted?

 

[maryj]

I have a great deal of respect for Kempis, so I can understand the adoration of the saints. Yet, the Scripture is silent on Mary worship and I am curious why saints have felt the need to speak of her in such ways?

To me, Mary worship distracts from Jesus. Most would argue that through Mary, we look to Jesus but I would say to that: why not in Christ alone?

When you must ADD onto the Word, you find false doctrine.

inChristalone, why not in Christ alone? Think about all the people that helped Christ in his ministries…it really is that simple

Did the woman who wiped the face of Jesus on his way to his crucifiction help in his ministries?
Did simon the cyrenian help Jesus in his ministries, as he helped him carry his cross to his crucifiction?
Did Mary and Martha help Jesus in his ministries by attending to him?
Did the disciples of Christ help him in his ministries by finding loaves and fish for Him to Bless and distribute to the crowd?
Was Jesus alone on his way to the cross, no the women and children lamented for Him.
Was Jesus alone when he set out in the boat to preach to the crowds, no! he set out with His Disciples.
If Jesus was not alone in his Own ministries, and used other people to help Him…why is it you think he would not want the same for us?

 

[Siamus]

inChristalone, why not in Christ alone? Think about all the people that helped Christ in his ministries…it really is that simple

Did the woman who wiped the face of Jesus on his way to his crucifiction help in his ministries?
Did simon the cyrenian help Jesus in his ministries, as he helped him carry his cross to his crucifiction?
Did Mary and Martha help Jesus in his ministries by attending to him?
Did the disciples of Christ help him in his ministries by finding loaves and fish for Him to Bless and distribute to the crowd?
Was Jesus alone on his way to the cross, no the women and children lamented for Him.
Was Jesus alone when he set out in the boat to preach to the crowds, no! he set out with His Disciples.
If Jesus was not alone in his Own ministries, and used other people to help Him…why is it you think he would not want the same for us?

Do not add to nor take away from the Word.

 

[Della]

Do not add to nor take away from the Word.

The Word is Christ, not the Bible. And that admonition appears in the Book of Revelation and only refers to the revelation given to St. John within it. The NT hadn’t even been compiled when St. John wrote those words.

You need to understand what the Bible is and, perhaps more importantly, what it isn’t. I suggest you look into the actual history of the Bible and you will find that without the Catholic Church you wouldn’t have a Bible to read. I suggest reading this: Where We Got the Bible, Our Debt to the Catholic Church.

 

[adrift]

No, I haven’t.

What I said is that “special devotion” is one of the definitions of worship, so in that sense we worship Mary. You, yourself said the same thing in post 139,

As I have posted, Worship has changed meaninings. We call the honor to Mary as Superdulia. BUT the OP as he defined worship was to God alone. When I wrote that we, under this definition do not worship Mary you said that

This is not what the Church teaches.

On the contrary it is what the Church teaches.  The Church does not teach that Mary is a god which is the OP's definition.  The Church does not teach that we honor Mary as a god but be do give her honor as I pointed out in Canon Law the Church refers to it as veneration.

Here was my definition of worship from post 126:

Which you replied,
2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

No does not apply

Interesting that you just quote part of what I replied.
So I guess that this is the definition that you believe applies to Mary? Mary worshipped by her fans:shrug:

worship - love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol; “Many teenagers idolized the Beatles”
Synonyms: hero-worship, idolise, idolize, revere

and, then you post the same definition in post 139.

I think you’re play mind games with me.

You had asked how the definition changed. I provided you with a 1913 Webster Dictionary definition. It wasn’t the same.

As defined in the OP we do not worship Mary, got that we don’t believe Mary is an idol.

 

[Literalist]

Can any on this post give comprehensive scripture that requires a believer in Jesus Christ to pray to and communicate with Mary?

 

[maryj]

Do not add to nor take away from the Word.

Would you explain to me how this is takingaway/adding to the Word? The Word is Jesus Christ. Really, I would like to know your thoughts on why you posted that.

 

[maryj]

Can any on this post give comprehensive scripture that requires a believer in Jesus Christ to pray to and communicate with Mary?

From His Holy Cross, Jesus gave the “beloved disciple” His mother, and to His mother He gave “the beloved disciple”…what would be the reason He spoke these words from the cross?

 

[Literalist]

Thanks for the response

Can you give the specific scripture that you refer to, or any others?

 

[Godisgreat23]

I appreciate your response and patience–a virtue God gives to us!

Luke 1 refers to a greeting from an angel. This should not be confused with a prayer.

When you examine the definition of “worship,” and read examples of prayers to Mary ( which God has never commanded us to do), it is worship.

One may deny it because they have to, for to admit it would be to set aside Mary in her rightful spot-absent in our prayers, thoughts and worship.

The angel was god’s messenger those words were spoken by the Eternal Father. Angel Gabriel didn’t make that message up He just passed the message what was asked of him…

Scriptural proof about Catholic’s teaching on Mary are 100 percent authentic in the PDF below…

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/the_bible_on_the_blessed_virgin_mary.pdf

Pope John XXIII passed the dogma that Mary was queen of heaven and the fact that his body still remains in-corrupt shows that the dogma was 100 percent authentic.

 

[Mark121359]

From His Holy Cross, Jesus gave the “beloved disciple” His mother, and to His mother He gave “the beloved disciple”…what would be the reason He spoke these words from the cross?

Thanks for the response
Can you give the specific scripture that you refer to, or any others?

***John 19:26-27

26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.***

 

[ericc]

I got the point and I could argue it in another thread.

No one has any Biblical basis for Mary worship and yet they continue to do it. I pray that I avoid self-deception but I must pray for Catholics as well.

Please stop using words like worship when you know Catholics do not worship Mary and the saints. If you don’t, I am telling you again, we Catholics do not WORSHIP Mary or the saints. If you are judging based upon external appearances, then you should realise that is not a decent or Christian thing to do for we are told not to judge. You do not know the contents of our hearts. If you are just parroting what someone else said, then you owe it to yourself to understand and discover the basis of our honouring of the saints. Immerse yourself in 2000 years of Christian history if your history knowledge is limited. Quoting Bible only POV isn’t going to take you very far when Bible didn’t say it is going to be Bible only. No knowledgeable Catholics have ever believed that and despite years and years of debate over that, Protestants have not succeeded in convincing Sola Scriptura is in the Bible. Why are we so sure? Because the Bible came from us.

Please do pray for avoidance of self-deception. Mary is the closest thing we mankind has to God, literally speaking. She bore him, fed him, cleaned up his poop, comforted him. All the things a parent will do. And we are commanded to honour our parents. To what extent do you think our Lord will observe his own commandment?

Many decades ago, I remembered reading either a Newsweek or Time article in which a Protestant was depicted meeting Jesus when he died and Jesus was doing the introductions: Meet Dad, you should know him very well. I don’t believe you know my Mum…

How well do you think you know Jesus’s Mum? If you love someone so much, don’t you think you want to know everything about him and his family and his friends? Or are you going to tell Jesus that “those Catholics didn’t put that in the Bible. Therefore I didn’t bother?”

 

[Della]

Can any on this post give comprehensive scripture that requires a believer in Jesus Christ to pray to and communicate with Mary?

Monicad nicely explained that no one, Catholics included, is required to pray/communicate with Mary, so I won’t go into it again. But I would recommend: The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus de Liguori in which he cites many scriptural references that witness to the Church’s understanding of Mary’s role in God’s plan of salvation, and thus our lives.

As to having to find any teaching expicitly stated in the Bible, nowhere in the Bible does it state that this is necessary. Please provide a verse or passage that tells us this. For example, do you believe in the Trinity–that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in substance and co-equal? If so, why? Because it’s not stated in the Bible. Or how about the two natures of Christ–that he is fully God and fully man? Can you cite the passage that states this? You can’t because, again, it’s not in the Bible. It was Church councils that gave us these definitions because the Bible doesn’t clearly state many important matters of faith and morals. The witness to this fact is the very fact that the Chruch met in Jerusalem in Acts 15 to decide matters of faith and discipline–because the Scripture they had couldn’t settle these matters. Christ gave authority to Peter and the Apostles, not to a book. Authority lies in men not in documents. Documents, no matter how sacred need interpretation. Jesus gave us the men who would intrepret and decide what is true doctrine and practice. Those men, in turn, laid their hands on others who took their place from the Apostles down to our own day.

many Protestants either don’t know or don’t understand what the Bible really is, and what place it actually held not only in the early Church, but holds within the context of the whole of God’s revelation to man, which the Church calls Sacred Tradition. If you read the NT carefully, you will not find individual churches setting themselves up independently of one another and interpreting Scripture according to their own lights. You see a unified, hiearchical structure in which there is one faith, one body, one baptism.

It was the Catholic Church that compiled the books of the Bible, translated it from the Greek and Hebrew into Latin–the language of the day, copied, provided vernacular language translations as the Church spread to various European countries, preached it, taught it, and recited (and still does) it in its daily prayer (the Divine Office) as well as the Liturgy of the Mass, in both the Liturgy of the Word (consisting of one or two readings [OT or NT], a Gospel reading plus a sung Psalm) and the Liturgy of the Eucharist in which the priest does as Christ commanded when he reads the words of consecration of the host that Jesus gave us.

 

[Mark121359]

Monicad nicely explained that no one, Catholics included, is required to pray/communicate with Mary, so I won’t go into it again. But I would recommend: The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus de Liguori in which he cites many scriptural references that witness to the Church’s understanding of Mary’s role in God’s plan of salvation, and thus our lives.

As to having to find any teaching expicitly stated in the Bible, nowhere in the Bible does it state that this is necessary. Please provide a verse or passage that tells us this. For example, do you believe in the Trinity–that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in substance and co-equal? If so, why? Because it’s not stated in the Bible. Or how about the two natures of Christ–that he is fully God and fully man? Can you cite the passage that states this? You can’t because, again, it’s not in the Bible. It was Church councils that gave us these definitions because the Bible doesn’t clearly state many important matters of faith and morals. The witness to this fact is the very fact that the Chruch met in Jerusalem in Acts 15 to decide matters of faith and discipline–because the Scripture they had couldn’t settle these matters. Christ gave authority to Peter and the Apostles, not to a book. Authority lies in men not in documents. Documents, no matter how sacred need interpretation. Jesus gave us the men who would intrepret and decide what is true doctrine and practice. Those men, in turn, laid their hands on others who took their place from the Apostles down to our own day.

many Protestants either don’t know or don’t understand what the Bible really is, and what place it actually held not only in the early Church, but holds within the context of the whole of God’s revelation to man, which the Church calls Sacred Tradition. If you read the NT carefully, you will not find individual churches setting themselves up independently of one another and interpreting Scripture according to their own lights. You see a unified, hiearchical structure in which there is one faith, one body, one baptism.

It was the Catholic Church that compiled the books of the Bible, translated it from the Greek and Hebrew into Latin–the language of the day, copied, provided vernacular language translations as the Church spread to various European countries, preached it, taught it, and recited (and still does) it in its daily prayer (the Divine Office) as well as the Liturgy of the Mass, in both the Liturgy of the Word (consisting of one or two readings [OT or NT], a Gospel reading plus a sung Psalm) and the Liturgy of the Eucharist in which the priest does as Christ commanded when he reads the words of consecration of the host that Jesus gave us.

Excellent post Della! By the way that’s an outstanding book you recommended as well.

Peace, Mark

 

[Literalist]

"The angel was god’s messenger those words were spoken by the Eternal Father. Angel Gabriel didn’t make that message up He just passed the message what was asked of him…

Scriptural proof about Catholic’s teaching on Mary are 100 percent authentic in the PDF below"

I still do not find any scriptures that specifically support the RCC teachings about Mary

I am not being contrary like a few of the posters on your thread about Mary, but I am a biblical Christian and do not believe any others who give interpretation unless they can point to specific scriptures in the Bible [Acts 17:10-13]

You said that the angel Gabriel is recorded as telling that one should venerate Mary and worship or communicate with her in some way today … I don’t find this in any scripture given by the Lord or Gabriel in God’s Word

In fact here are a few scriptures that you should consider which do not agree with the idea that Mary is in heaven receiving communication from mortal humans at this time, but she is most likely one of the “dead in Christ” who is waiting for the second coming of Jesus which is still future [Ecclesiastes 9:3-5; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4;13-18; John 3:13]

 

[Slaney]

I don’t see the difference in the definition of veneration and worship.

Isn’t veneration similar to “reverence?”

I am thoroughly confused with that aspect Catholicism.

*Here ** * this might help…