Mary Worship

[inChristAlone33]

As a rededicated Christian, I have come to appreciate Catholicism through reading “Imitation of Christ,” by Kempis. I was not raised Catholic but in the Assembly of God, and I was familiar with the criticism of the Catholic faith.

As many of you have seen on this board, Catholicism is highly debated and rebuked in the Protestant churches and most Catholics simply do not “see” the justification of these rebukes.

For me, my main concern and suspicion of the Catholic faith is the emphasis of Mary: praying to and worship of. Recently, I was at an event that was centered on prayer and one prayer to Mary included terms like “Queen of Heaven, free of original sin, Perpetual Virgin,” etc. Not to mention that the Rosary was prayed 10 times, about 15 sets.

None of which is Biblical but based on tradition.

Yet, Jesus was not given this much attention.

Catholics defend they do not worship Mary but their actions, especially of the extravagant prayers I heard this weekend, speak otherwise.

Worship:

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

As someone who was interested and attracted to the Catholic faith, the validity of it has been undermined by the worship (as seen in the definition) of Mary. There are other issues I have: confession to a priest, Mass, infant baptism, pope infallibility.

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

Mary speaks, very fittingly in the Revelations of Saint Bridget: “Know well that all praise of me is praise of my son.” Catholics venerate Mary knowing that Jesus is VERY pleased with the adoration given to the one being He loves the most, and in the full knowledge that she gives all the honor to her son anyway.

 

[inChristAlone33]

Mary speaks, very fittingly in the Revelations of Saint Bridget: “Know well that all praise of me is praise of my son.” Catholics venerate Mary knowing that Jesus is VERY pleased with the adoration given to the one being He loves the most, and in the full knowledge that she gives all the honor to her son anyway.

I have a great deal of respect for Kempis, so I can understand the adoration of the saints. Yet, the Scripture is silent on Mary worship and I am curious why saints have felt the need to speak of her in such ways?

To me, Mary worship distracts from Jesus. Most would argue that through Mary, we look to Jesus but I would say to that: why not in Christ alone?

When you must ADD onto the Word, you find false doctrine.

 

[Ceil-1]

Why not ask the Lord to speak to you on this particular issue? I’ll bet he will.

 

[ricmat]

I have a great deal of respect for Kempis, so I can understand the adoration of the saints. Yet, the Scripture is silent on Mary worship and I am curious why saints have felt the need to speak of her in such ways?

To me, Mary worship distracts from Jesus. Most would argue that through Mary, we look to Jesus but I would say to that: why not in Christ alone?

When you must ADD onto the Word, you find false doctrine.

There are different “levels” of worship. Catholics reserve the highest for God. And there is no confusion about Mary being God. Mary is a creature, as are we all. But a very special creation.

The prayer you mentioned - the Hail Mary - is found mostly in Luke chapter 1. Perhaps you’ve never looked at that chapter in the past.

Most Protestants equate prayer with worship. Perhaps because they cannot envision any other type of worship (they left most of it behind when they created churches more to their liking). Prayer can be worship, but in the case of Mary it is merely a form of communication in which we ask her for her intersession. As it says in the bible, the prayers of a holy person are powerful indeed.

Have you ever touched God? I mean REALLY touched God? Those persons in the Gospels who Jesus touched, and healed, actually touched him. But Mary held him in her womb for 9 months. Then breast fed him as an infant, hugged him and comforted him as an infant, etc. Do you know why we call Mary the new Ark of the Covenant? Was the Ark of the covenant respected?

Mary’s last words in the Bible were “Do as he says.” When we look to Mary, that’s what we hear. As the sun is too bright to view directly and which blinds us, rather while still on earth we can see the glory of the sun’s rays perfectly reflected in the moon.

There are many here who can answer better than I can, and have more patience, so I’ll leave the rest to them.

PS “Queen of Heaven” - Rev 12:1.

PPS - Do you know where your bible “came from?” Who created your table of contents for the NT? Why does your bible have fewer books in it? Because you subtracted from the word.

 

[inChristAlone33]

Why not ask the Lord to speak to you on this particular issue? I’ll bet he will.

Great question! I have and He has by revealing to me His Word. Yet, you and I receive a different conclusion based on many things but should it not be on Word alone?

 

[ricmat]

Great question! I have and He has by revealing to me His Word. Yet, you and I receive a different conclusion based on many things but should it not be on Word alone?

No. The first bible didn’t come into existence until approx 380AD. Before then, TRADITIONS were passed along verbally, as well is in written fragments (not the whole bible). As it says in the Gospels, not everything Jesus did or taught is in the bible.

I think it’s hilarious that you put all your faith in a book that Catholics assembled, and then insist that the Catholics are wrong. One might even say that many protestants worship the bible

 

[inChristAlone33]

There are different “levels” of worship. Catholics reserve the highest for God. And there is no confusion about Mary being God. Mary is a creature, as are we all. But a very special creation.

The prayer you mentioned - the Hail Mary - is found mostly in Luke chapter 1. Perhaps you’ve never looked at that chapter in the past.

Most Protestants equate prayer with worship. Perhaps because they cannot envision any other type of worship (they left most of it behind when they created churches more to their liking). Prayer can be worship, but in the case of Mary it is merely a form of communication in which we ask her for her intersession. As it says in the bible, the prayers of a holy person are powerful indeed.

Have you ever touched God? I mean REALLY touched God? Those persons in the Gospels who Jesus touched, and healed, actually touched him. But Mary held him in her womb for 9 months. Then breast fed him as an infant, hugged him and comforted him as an infant, etc. Do you know why we call Mary the new Ark of the Covenant? Was the Ark of the covenant respected?

Mary’s last words in the Bible were “Do as he says.” When we look to Mary, that’s what we hear. As the sun is too bright to view directly and which blinds us, rather while still on earth we can see the glory of the sun’s rays perfectly reflected in the moon.

There are many here who can answer better than I can, and have more patience, so I’ll leave the rest to them.

PS “Queen of Heaven” - Rev 12:1.

I appreciate your response and patience–a virtue God gives to us!

Luke 1 refers to a greeting from an angel. This should not be confused with a prayer.

When you examine the definition of “worship,” and read examples of prayers to Mary ( which God has never commanded us to do), it is worship.

One may deny it because they have to, for to admit it would be to set aside Mary in her rightful spot-absent in our prayers, thoughts and worship.

 

[inChristAlone33]

No. The first bible didn’t come into existence until approx 380AD. Before then, TRADITIONS were passed along verbally, as well is in written fragments (not the whole bible). As it says in the Gospels, not everything Jesus did or taught is in the bible.

I think it’s hilarious that you put all your faith in a book that Catholics assembled, and then insist that the Catholics are wrong. One might even say that many protestants worship the bible

Never did I say I put “all my faith” in one book. I said the word " appreciate."

In Christ Alone.

 

[MichaelHowling]

When the Holy Angel from Heaven came to visit her …the angel says "hail! "

Luke 1:48
“For all generations will call me blessed”

Revelation 12:17
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

… Honor your father and mother.

Look at all the chosen souls in the old tesitment…the kings, the priests…what reverence was due to them ? What honor and esteem? How much more the the chosen woman who truly and fully lived Gods love ?!

The ark of the covenant…held manna from heaven, the 10 commandments, the rod of aron and the pentanuch ( the "word " of God) . …the manna (Jesus said " I am the TRUE bread that comes down from Heaven), the commandments and the jewish scriptures = the “word” of God (Jesus is the word) the priestly staff of aron…(jesus is the great high priest). Now if these elements were sooo holy (and would sit in the holy of holies in the jewish temple) and were honored and veneration AND it was soooo holy that if anything touched it …it would die!!! How much more honor and veneration and love and respect is due to the one who carried the high priest, the word of God and the bread of life!

Lastly…just look at its fruits. Many, (if not all) of the great known saints speak of their love and devotion to Mary…and they’re holy people.

All people in public office, kings queens, fathers and mothers etc etc…they are all honored and respected, not because of themselves…but because of Gods authority and blessing on them. We love and honor holy things…who can boast of more privillage or holiness than mary who was SPECIFICALLY chosen by God. I see billy grahm and other protestant ministers who fill the homes of protestants with their shows, books, words, experiences and teachings …and they are loved and honored. You guys recognise Christ in them! Are they guilty of idolitry, or loving jesus less because of a holy person ? Of course not! The holy person draws you closer to God!

This is the Lords Mother…a mother of his own choosing…that’s a relationship we cant understand. A great way to honor the Son or the creator …is to love His mother and the most beautiful of His works!

God bless

 

[Ceil-1]

I think the problem is that you are listening based on your preconcieved notion of where and how you will get your answer. Now, if you believe in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, you surely understand that He speaks directly to us in many ways. You should be attentive to all the means He may use to speak to you.

I will give you an example.

An old friend randomly pops into your head as you wake up. Later in the day, you read a Scripture passage about prayer/charity, Mary’s visitation to Elizabeth, maybe. Later, you get behind a car with a bumper sticker about friendship. If you are paying attention, you will realize the Holy Spirit may be prompting you to look up this old friend and you find out they have been diagnosed with a serious illness, but was not planning on telling you.

When you read the Bible for a word from the Lord, it is best to read without a preconceived notion of proof-texting or getting your answer. You should read a passage, slowly, twice, and contemplate and pray on a word or phrase that sticks out at you. God is speaking to you in that passage, word or phrase. You can then meditate/contemplate pray based on what it means. Proof-texting is a bad idea because you are not docile to what is being said but are leading it.

Discernment is a skill that must be cultivated.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

for to admit it would be to set aside Mary in her rightful spot-absent in our prayers, thoughts and worship.

Do you say this of your own or have others taught you to say this? Mary’s “rightful spot” is to be venerated, honored and adored for her position as the Father’s Daughter, the Son’s Mother, and the Holy Spirit’s Immaculate Spouse. She, a human being like us, bore the Incarnate Word of God for 9 months. Detract personally from her veneration if you like, but don’t make radical sweeping statements like the one you made. I, not a mention probably a thousandful of other Catholics, find that statement very disrespectful.

 

[MichaelHowling]

To your #6 post:

2 Peter 1:19-21: “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Interpretation belongs to the church. Remember Jesus speaking to the disciples asking “who do men say that I am” …He got all kinds of answers! That was Jesus face to face with people…no you’re reading from a book …an ancient book, from an ancient culture well over 2,000 years old and you think that by you meditating and praying over scripture that you’re going to do better than those who looked at Christ face to face?

See…this is why we have thousands of denomenations…everyone things they can interpret themselves. It dosent work!

God bless

 

[WaitingForJesus]

I am a Baptist convert. Mother Mary was the last thing to go for me. If you want to explore Catholicism, I would suggest you just hold off on thinking about her too much for the time being and remember only one thing about her. She is the mother of our Lord. She is worthy of great respect and admiration for that reason alone. You may think Catholics are taking it too far, but you are looking through a lens that has conditioned you to see things in a particular way.

The first thing you need to ponder and pray about is “sola scriptura”, i.e. your belief that you can’t believe something unless it is in the Bible. That is an assumption upon which all of the Protestant denominations are built. But, where in the Bible does it say that??? Long before the Bible was written down, the Jews were passing along what is now in the Old Testamant orally. And, during the early stages of Christianity, things were handed on orally as well. I believe the earliest Christian documents are dated is something like 50AD–long after our Lord’s death. Sacred tradition embodies those Catholic beliefs that were handed on orally from the beginning of the Faith. Why are you so sure it has to be in the Bible? I would guess because that is what you were taught from childhood. At least that was the case for me.

If you are open and study apologetics, you will also see that the vast majority of what Catholics believe is in scripture – although not quite as literally as you might want – and that some of the versus you read that are a bit confusing, make a great deal of sense.

I noticed that you did not mention our belief in the Eucharist, i.e. communion, as a concern area and wondered why. The fact that we believe when we receive communion that it truly is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord usually raises more than a few eyebrows. But, if you read all of the last supper accounts and John 6, it becomes pretty clear that is what the Lord said. Yet, most of the Protestant denominations simply dismiss that and say the Lord was speaking spiritually. For me, this concept was key. I had been told all my life that I could only believe what was written in the Bible, yet we were disregarding what our Lord himself said. I slowly worked my way through the rest of the weird Catholic beliefs and was convinced. This IS the church our Lord founded.

I suggest you read some of the Surprised by the Truth books or some things by Scott Haan, a scholarly Protestant minister who converted to see how others have changed their thinking.

May God bless you in your search for the truth.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

This is the Lords Mother…a mother of his own choosing…that’s a relationship we cant understand. A great way to honor the Son or the creator …is to love His mother and the most beautiful of His works!

God bless

Thank you very much for expressing that beautiful sentiment, MichaelHowling. It nearly brought a tear to this eye.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Thanks…proud to have came up with it…lol, looking back… I’m kinda suprised at myself.

I’m a mama’s boy

 

[Bruised_Reed]

As a rededicated Christian, I have come to appreciate Catholicism through reading “Imitation of Christ,” by Kempis. I was not raised Catholic but in the Assembly of God, and I was familiar with the criticism of the Catholic faith.

As many of you have seen on this board, Catholicism is highly debated and rebuked in the Protestant churches and most Catholics simply do not “see” the justification of these rebukes.

For me, my main concern and suspicion of the Catholic faith is the emphasis of Mary: praying to and worship of. Recently, I was at an event that was centered on prayer and one prayer to Mary included terms like “Queen of Heaven, free of original sin, Perpetual Virgin,” etc. Not to mention that the Rosary was prayed 10 times, about 15 sets.

None of which is Biblical but based on tradition.

If you are willing to do a little reading check the CA library about Mary’s perpetual virginity, etc. and how these things are biblical. And the the essence of the Rosary are the Mysteries. We meditate on these Mysteries which center on the lives of Jesus and Mary. These are also biblical. It also sounds like they prayed the entire Rosary, and there are 20 Mysteries.

Yet, Jesus was not given this much attention.

Catholics defend they do not worship Mary but their actions, especially of the extravagant prayers I heard this weekend, speak otherwise.

Worship:

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

I don’t know what kind of event you went to so I can’t be more specific but you might not recognize Catholic worship because it looks different than Protestant worship. The center of our worship is the Mass. Did this event include Mass, or perhaps, Adoration? Catholic conferences usually offer Mass each day and Adoration is going on the whole time.

As someone who was interested and attracted to the Catholic faith, the validity of it has been undermined by the worship (as seen in the definition) of Mary. There are other issues I have: confession to a priest, Mass, infant baptism, pope infallibility.

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).

Why does it have to be that definition of “worship”? I remember hanging out with a group one night; a couple of Catholics and a few from the same non-denominational church. At one point, one person said, “let’s have worship!” And I’m wondering how we are supposed to have “worship” with out Jesus . Praise, maybe, but worship? He’s so far away! In the Mass and Adoration, Jesus is right there.

Another anectodal story: I went to a Singles event at a Basptist Church (hey, it was open to everyone). At the end, it featured a well-known CCM artist. It was more than a concert really because we weren’t just listening, we were singing, or really praying. It wasn’t a church service so I don’t even think they called it worship, but after I was so hungry for Jesus I ended up driving to a church that had Perpetual Adoration.

Catholic worship centers around Jesus.

A favorite quote:

“Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.” (St. Maximilian Kolbe)

 

[Evania]

There’s a great book that I think you may enjoy: Rome Sweet Home by: Dr. Scott Hahn.

God Bless

 

[MichaelHowling]

“Hail holy queen” by scott hahn.

Also…another point that just came to me. God himself honors and loves our goodness and holiness dosen’t He ? I mean…look at Genesis. Adam and Eve were holy, and “very good” and pleasing to God…He gave them a world!!! and everything they could ever wish for.

In the book of revelation it describes Mary with a crown of stars, and a moon under her feet. If God honors her so…how much more shound you ?

 

[mlz]

My dear fellow Christian,

Welcome to CA and on your journey of faith. I am a convert and totally understand where you are coming from. I was on this journey for about 3 years (perhaps more). Many of your questions were mine. So I’m sure you’re thinking…oh good, let me hear your answers. I’m not going to give you mine directly but point your to some resources I think may help you as they did for me.

EWTN has articles you can get on various topics. christianbiblesociety.com is also a good place to get free CD’s to listen too. Get a Catechism of the Catholic Church (there is a smaller version of this) I also listened to many GOOD Lighthouse Catholic Media CD’s(go to Lighthouse Catholic Media.org. By the way, I also went to a Catholic retreat and came home angry with Catholics over various things… ALSO…and being from an Assembly God I would also recommend going to a Catholic Church to attend “Adoration”. (check if they have this first via a phone call or check online) If you go plan on bringing your bible and be prepared to sit and pray and read the Word for an hour. What you will see is what is called a Monstrance which holds the Blessed Sacrament. (Our Lord in it) Now…you may not believe it, but He is REALLY PRESENT! I never thought so but after an hour and I also asked Him to reveal to me Himself, I had a strange feeling of love and peace. I just privately worshipped our Lord and prayed and read the Word. It started off awkward, then became more and more special. I left with a strong sense of the Holy Spirit there. Even with doubts you may sense this also. Mind you, I went often, with questions and more questions and all I can say is slowly, very slowly the Holy Spirit started to help me see through things I read, including the Bible such a connection to all I knew before and it made sense…slowly, one question at a time. I eventually came to the point of trust.

My love and prayers (PM me if you want)
mlz

P.S. Guess how the Bible came to us? (Through the Holy Catholic Church!) Our early Church fathers give us a lot of what came before we even had the Bible Tradition IS an important part of our Christian heritage!