Mary Worship

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You convict us catholics of allowing Mary to get in our way to Jesus…but isin’t that what you’re doing now too? I mean, if you are being moved to think the catholic church has… "something " to it… ?

God bless you on your journey.
 
In the book of revelation it describes Mary with a crown of stars, and a moon under her feet. If God honors her so…how much more shound you ?
THIS should be published where every Protestant can get an eyeful of it.
 
yea , i know Yehuda…

lol

I’m waiting for a phone call from the vatican any minute now asking me to get to rome because they have something extremely important to talk with me about. lol

thanks for the kind words.
 
I have a great deal of respect for Kempis, so I can understand the adoration of the saints. Yet, the Scripture is silent on Mary worship and I am curious why saints have felt the need to speak of her in such ways?

To me, Mary worship distracts from Jesus. Most would argue that through Mary, we look to Jesus but I would say to that: why not in Christ alone?

When you must ADD onto the Word, you find false doctrine.
Thats exactly it. We don’t worship Our Lady. No Catholic, even me, in their right mind would tell You of such a thing as worshipping Our Lady. We love Her just as much as JESUS would have loved Her, because JESUS kept the 4th commandment perfectly, and so we try to do the same. We also remember that She said “All generations shall call me blessed”. We just fulfill that. She is the only one in Scripture to whom an Angel appears and says “hail, Full of GRACE, the LORD is with thee”. No one else was full of grace. Her cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy Womb”. Again, She is the only woman in history to have done what She did. Become the Mother of GOD. Not that GOD became GOD inside of Her, but GOD chose to literally dwell inside of HER. A privilege that up until Our LORD instituted the Most HOLY EUCHARIST, no one ever had in human history. Also, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
 
Thats exactly it. We don’t worship Our Lady. No Catholic, even me, in their right mind would tell You of such a thing as worshipping Our Lady. We love Her just as much as JESUS would have loved Her, because JESUS kept the 4th commandment perfectly, and so we try to do the same. We also remember that She said “All generations shall call me blessed”. We just fulfill that. She is the only one in Scripture to whom an Angel appears and says “hail, Full of GRACE, the LORD is with thee”. No one else was full of grace. Her cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy Womb”. Again, She is the only woman in history to have done what She did. Become the Mother of GOD. Not that GOD became GOD inside of Her, but GOD chose to literally dwell inside of HER. A privilege that up until Our LORD instituted the Most HOLY EUCHARIST, no one ever had in human history. Also, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Beautifully stated!👍
 
ALSO…and being from an Assembly God I would also recommend going to a Catholic Church to attend “Adoration”. (check if they have this first via a phone call or check online) If you go plan on bringing your bible and be prepared to sit and pray and read the Word for an hour. What you will see is what is called a Monstrance which holds the Blessed Sacrament. (Our Lord in it) Now…you may not believe it, but He is REALLY PRESENT! I never thought so but after an hour and I also asked Him to reveal to me Himself, I had a strange feeling of love and peace. I just privately worshipped our Lord and prayed and read the Word. It started off awkward, then became more and more special. I left with a strong sense of the Holy Spirit there. Even with doubts you may sense this also. Mind you, I went often, with questions and more questions and all I can say is slowly, very slowly the Holy Spirit started to help me see through things I read, including the Bible such a connection to all I knew before and it made sense…slowly, one question at a time. I eventually came to the point of trust.

Let me second that about going to adoration! It is incredible. I invariably experience peace when I visit the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. I often read my Bible there and it is as if HE is personally instructing me. This would be a good place for you to go and pray about some of the questions you are having.
 
As a rededicated Christian, I have come to appreciate Catholicism through reading “Imitation of Christ,” by Kempis. I was not raised Catholic but in the Assembly of God, and I was familiar with the criticism of the Catholic faith.

As many of you have seen on this board, Catholicism is highly debated and rebuked in the Protestant churches and most Catholics simply do not “see” the justification of these rebukes.

For me, my main concern and suspicion of the Catholic faith is the emphasis of Mary: praying to and worship of. Recently, I was at an event that was centered on prayer and one prayer to Mary included terms like “Queen of Heaven, free of original sin, Perpetual Virgin,” etc. Not to mention that the Rosary was prayed 10 times, about 15 sets.

None of which is Biblical but based on tradition.

Yet, Jesus was not given this much attention.

Catholics defend they do not worship Mary but their actions, especially of the extravagant prayers I heard this weekend, speak otherwise.

Worship:

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

As someone who was interested and attracted to the Catholic faith, the validity of it has been undermined by the worship (as seen in the definition) of Mary. There are other issues I have: confession to a priest, Mass, infant baptism, pope infallibility.

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).
You claim in your first sentence to have come to appreciate Catholicism. This is belied by the rest of your post. You deny Sacred Tradition, accuse us of worshiping Mary, deny the doctrine of Papal Infallibility, and deny the Sacraments of Confession, Baptism, and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The simple truth of the matter is that you have not come to appreciate Catholicism at all. Far from it.

Regarding Mary, some Catholics can take things a bit far, but would be less than 1% and certainly are not representative of Church Doctrine regarding Our Lady. Read this and then get back to us. amazon.com/Mary-Fathers-Church-Blessed-Patristic/dp/0898706866/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363142090&sr=8-1&keywords=mary+and+the+fathers+of+the+church

Oh, and while you are at it, show me in the Bible where we were promised a Bible at all. Then, tell me how the writings in the Gospels were passed down if not through Sacred Tradition.
 
As someone who was interested and attracted to the Catholic faith, the validity of it has been undermined by the worship (as seen in the definition) of Mary. There are other issues I have: confession to a priest, Mass, infant baptism, pope infallibility.

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).
but you are following the traditions and interpretations of your protestant forefathers are you not?

Jesus gave us the Church and with that church he gave us the bible

you are worried about Mary being worshipped, have you attended a Mass - that happens every day ( its all about Jesus) have you attended adoration or benediction or stations of the cross - all about Jesus

we venerate Mary and the saints because its good to have friends in high places and we are encouraged to ask for intercession its in the scriptures

all of these questions are pretty easy to answer - confession , mass , infant baptism , pope and papal infallibility you should add in the Eucharist. and if you have done your research you know that the early Church fathers all knew this and its in their writings. where as protestant Christianity is actually been around less than the rosary has been around.

you have come to the right place to find answers, and as a non-Catholic it will be hard for you to wrap your mind around some of the things we do - but if you do the research because now like never before you can find the information and truth much easier than ever before you will come to realize the Catholic church is the one true catholic and apostolic church -

wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]). ** Ignatius of Antioch**
 
For me, my main concern and suspicion of all 40,000 protestant denominations is the dislike and even in some circumstances hatred of the Blessed Virgin.

Needless to say, all that is Catholic is fully scriptural, which of course you can confirm by opening your Bible at Revelations 12 and reading about the Mother and her offspring, and by checking out the Prophets and the Psalms that speak of the Blessed Virgin as the Queen of Heaven, as free of all sin, as the perpetual virgin, etc.

As for the Holy Rosary, indeed it is not define in the Canon of Sacred Scripture, but is a heavenly gift from the hands of Our Lady. And since the rule of thumb is to know the tree from the fruits and that if something is of human origin it fails but if it is of divine origin it will stand strong, ask yourself why a private revelation to a friar in the 13th Century diffused shortly to the whole Universal Church and has brought many souls to conversion and great devotion to Christ, and is known - in fact, well-known - to rebuke the fallen angels, though this visible spiritual warfare goes unnoticed in the modern age, while it was not so in the past centuries. After all, the Rosary begins with our Profession of Faith, continues with the Lord’s Prayer and the Glory be to the Holy Trinity, and continues with a meditation on the life of Christ (the “mysteries”, such as the Incarnation, the Agony in the Garden, the Ascension, etc.) paced with ten prayers of the Angelic Salutation or Ave Maria, a prayer based on what God told Our Lady through the Archangel and on the praise that the Holy Spirit inspired her cousin Elizabeth, mother of the Forerunner John, the greatest of all prophets.

If I were you, I would try to maintain the humble behavior inspired by the reading of the great spiritual masterpiece De Imitatione Christi, by all the while reading the books on the figure of Mary in Holy Scripture, and especially the writings of the same Thomas Kempis on Our Lady, collected in the book “The Imitation of Mary”.

Remember, it is not up to you to define worship. It is up to the teaching authority, to the apostolic authority. And the apostolic authority (which in matters of faith and morals comes from Christ, as we learn from Mt 13:11, Lk 10:16, Jn 16:12-15) defines worship (ugh…the English language…) as latria when reserved to God alone, and in an infinitely lower magnitude as dulia when directed to God through the saints (you know, that which in our most ancient Profession of Faith we call the Communion of Saints) of which Our Lady is the greatest member since from Her the Son took flesh…and this is of course fully scriptural, for it is written: “laudate Dominum in sanctis eius”, “praise the Lord in His holy ones”.

I will be fully honest with you: the Holy Spirit will always move the Christian heart towards the unity of the Church, which is one, holy, universal, and apostolic, and is governed by the successor of s. Peter and the bishops in communion with him. What prevents you from joining the fullness of communion with the Church of Christ is not those issues, but your pride.

Understand that the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation has its roots in 20 centuries of continuous, consistent, unquestioned apostolic tradition that is fully and solely based on Scripture. Not one of the Church Fathers, Church Doctors, saints, theologians, and bishops of Holy Church has ever raised his voice to question it. They all agree, and explain from Scripture, about what this Sacrament is and does. In fact, they also agree in condemning as incredibly dangerous the errors that negate this Sacrament. s. Augustine of Hippo, for instance, clearly admonishes: “Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God has power to forgive all sins”. So does s. Ambrose, who rebuked the error of the Novatianists as follows: “they professed to show reverence for the Lord by reserving to Him alone the power of forgiving sins. Greater wrong could not be done than what they do in seeking to rescind His commands and fling back the office He bestowed.The Church obeys Him in both respects, by binding sin and by loosing it”. Are we to believe that s. Augustine and s. Ambrose (along with all other Church Fathers, Church Doctors, bishops, priests, martyrs and saints) were not true, orthodox disciples of Christ doing His will? Or are we rather to believe that the novelties of small groups such as the Novatianists back then or some denominations today are gravely erroneous?

Negation of infant baptism is ludicrous inasmuch as it is taught in the Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, a book that was taken into consideration to enter the Canon of Sacred Scripture (though later it was not included), and - to mention one - Church Father Origen (184-245 AD) speaks of infant baptism in his works known today as “Homilies on Leviticus”, “Commentary on Romans”, and “Homily on Luke”, as follows:
Baptism according to the practice of the Church is given even to infants …] The Church had a tradition from the Apostles, to give baptism even to infants …] Infants are baptised for the remission of sins …] that is the reason why infants too are baptised".
Are we to assume that the holy Apostles and Church Fathers were mistaken in baptizing infants, or are we to assume that the novelty of not baptizing infants is an error?
 
As for Mass, this is just plain nonsense, for the Holy Eucharist is the source and summit of the Church ever since the Last Supper, and there are an enormity of books on the Sacred Liturgy that show its development from the days of the Apostles until this very day. In fact, even protestant denominations (the original ones, that is) retain some sort of Mass which eventually is broken down until almost or entirely disappearing in the ones that have fallen farther away from orthodox Christianity. Of the Mass speak the Prophets and the Psalms.

In all honesty, if you reject the Mass, I doubt you have entirely read The Imitation of Christ, for the fourth book of this work is dedicated to it, and anyways Thomas Kempis was Catholic, praised Our Lady with proper devotion, baptized infants and confessed as a priest, like all Catholics humbly professed his assent to the Magisterium of the Church governed by the Vicar of Christ and the bishops in communion with him, and above all else celebrated Mass and adored the Real Presence in the Eucharist consecrated during Mass.

Ultimately you cannot reach Christ unless you bow your head and become more humble. In this, De Imitatione Christi will teach you a lot. If you read the writings of the Church Fathers - especially those who were disciples of the Apostles other than their direct successors - you will also change your mind and notice with sorrow how great were the errors of those doctrines that dare to counterpose themselves to the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church. Do so, and may the Lord be your light.
 
I have a great deal of respect for Kempis, so I can understand the** adoration of the saints**. Yet, the Scripture is silent on Mary worship and I am curious why saints have felt the need to speak of her in such ways?

To me, Mary worship distracts from Jesus. Most would argue that through Mary, we look to Jesus but I would say to that: why not in Christ alone?

When you must ADD onto the Word, you find false doctrine.
Simply they, the Saints and all Catholics & Orthodox Christians…are following scripture:
Luke 1:46-49
New King James Version (NKJV)
46 And Mary said:
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name
.

And it is not adding to Scripture…your position violates a direct command from Christ himself…give clearly in scripture.
Luke 10:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ Sending out his Apostles
16 He who** hears you hears Me**, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
Also, Catholic doctrine is specific…Mary is not worshiped…only God is worshiped…so why not be truthful and state what the Catholic Church teaches…it is a simple request…and really a Christian duty to be forthright in what you say about others faith.

Lastly, feelings aside…what authoritative power do you claim for yourself…or use…to take your position against the Catholic Church’s teaching and Traditions on showing special reverence and devotion to Mary…do you claim or has anyone given you authoritative power for the interpretation scripture…or the authority to dismiss the deposit of faith (revealed-written-spoken) handed down by the apostles to their successors and guarded through the 2000+ years of Christianity.

Pax Christi
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:
Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.30
Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel’s greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst."31 Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men."32 Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel’s greeting, we make Elizabeth’s greeting our own. “Filled with the Holy Spirit,” Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed."33 "Blessed is she who believed. . . . "34 Mary is “blessed among women” because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord’s word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth.35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God’s own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."
30 Cf. Lk 1:48; Zeph 3:17b.
31 Zeph 3:14,17a.
32 Rev 21:3.
33 Lk 1:41, 48.
34 Lk 1:45.
35 Cf. Gen 12:3.
 
In all honesty, if you reject the Mass, I doubt you have entirely read The Imitation of Christ, for the fourth book of this work is dedicated to it, and anyways Thomas Kempis was Catholic, praised Our Lady with proper devotion, baptized infants and confessed as a priest, like all Catholics humbly professed his assent to the Magisterium of the Church governed by the Vicar of Christ and the bishops in communion with him, and above all else celebrated Mass and adored the Real Presence in the Eucharist consecrated during Mass.
All of what you wrote in both your posts was very good, but you said everything needed in that paragraph.

There is a tendency in recent years it seems for protestants to read Catholic books but then try to somehow separate them from Catholicism. The Imitation of Christ is one such book that I have seen this happen to. Heck, it happens to the Rule of St. Benedict all the time. As if somehow one could remove Thomas Kempis or St. Benedict from Catholicism and still have the same men. They wrote what they wrote, because they believed what they believed.

Peace,
 
I have a great deal of respect for Kempis, so I can understand the adoration of the saints. Yet, the Scripture is silent on Mary worship and I am curious why saints have felt the need to speak of her in such ways?

To me, Mary worship distracts from Jesus. Most would argue that through Mary, we look to Jesus but I would say to that: why not in Christ alone?

When you must ADD onto the Word, you find false doctrine.
The Bible speaks of all people in the Body of Christ praying for one another. It speaks of those who die in Christ being alive with Christ. The Bible says that death does not separate us from the love of Christ. It suffices to say that those in heaven pray for us. Asking one in heaven to pray for us is not worship, it is the same as asking a friend to intercede for you.

Your problem is that you are looking at things from an either/or point of view which is very common to Protestants. Catholics see prayer to saints not as detracting from the mediation of Christ but rather a participation in the mediation of Christ. Catholics believe in Christ alone, they worship God alone. When they honor Mary they are participating in the heavenly circle of prayer and intercession for eachother as the Body of Christ. Catholics see the Kingdom of heaven as a true Kingdom, a palace filled with courtiers who do not take glory away from the King of Kings but rather join with you in glorifying Him. The splendor of Jesus’s Kingdom and courtiers DOES NOT take away from His glory, they point to it.

Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism added words to the Bible. he also took words out. You need to understand that the Catholic Church formulated the basis of Christian doctrine, they were the original Christian interpreters of Scripture. They also decided what books belong in the Bible. Before you can show apt respect to the Bible, you need to realize how it was put together- by Catholic bishops. You should look at the way early Christians believed in the communion of saints.

Who would you expect to understand the original intent of the New Testament authors, Christians in the 2nd and 3rd centuries who followed right after Jesus’s apostles or the Reformers of the 1500’s?
 
Welcome to CAF. Thank you for being both open enough to come to the Catholic gathering you discussed and these forums.

Rightfully so, this forum has gotten a lot of attention.

Catholics pray for the intercession of Mary because she is so close to Christ. God chose her as a pure vessel for His Only Begotten Son, who came to save humanity. She said yes to the Father, providing an example of what we should do with our lives - accept God’s will completely so that God can work wonders through us. She helps bring us closer to Christ through the Holy Rosary.

If i am correct, the Rosary is not a devotion to Mary, but a devotion to Jesus through Mary, a Christocentric prayer. They sections you referred to are called Mysteries. Most, if not all, of the Mysteries are about Christ. All of the Sorrowful Mysteries and Luminous Mysteries are about Christ directly. The Joyful and Glorious Mysteries are about Christ indirectly. The Joyful Mysteries start with the Annunciation [of the Angel onto Mary], a Mystery prayed for the love of Humility. This represents Mary accepting God’s will. The Visitation [of Mary to Saint Elizabeth] is for love of neighbor, because we are supposed to carry Christ to others through our actions just as Mary did literally. The Nativity is for the Spirit of Poverty, a directly Christ related Mystery.The Presentation of Jesus to the Temple and Finding of Jesus in the Temple are directly Christ related, as we are supposed to accept God’s law and search for Jesus. As for the Glorious Mysteries, the Resurrection, Ascension, and Decent of the Holy Spirit are directly Christ related. The Assumption and Coronation relate indirectly. The Assumption is about the Joy of being reunited with Christ in Heaven. The Coronation represents the honor God will give you if you follow His Will completely. The Rosary’s is devotion to Jesus, through the eyes of Mary. We meditate (or try to meditate in my case) on the Life of Christ through the eyes who saw Him with the Love no other human did, and from the perspective of the human that did God’s will far better than any other. Hope I cleared things up.

Peace in Christ,

James
 
us catholics…DO NOT WORSHIP…our blessed Mother.
WE WORSHIP…GOD ----Father, SON. & Holy Spirit—3 persons in ONE GOD…

we love her, we admire her, yes we pray to her…BUT…we only worship ONE GOD!!!
look at it this way…you want to meet the president of the united states, and lo’ and behold you found out you have an old high school buddy that is working for him. well, you go to the phone and call your old friend…and , yes, the answer is a casual
of course, “i’d love to see you and while your here i’ll find a way for you to meet him.”

…well, Mary, our Mother and Mother of the church. is that friend. when you think of a ‘mother’ and the great love she has for her children and wanting the best for them…Mary is just that Mother , and then some, to and for our souls. she along with the saints are , our friends, and we cultivate a relationship with them so they can help us, guide us and escort us, so to speak, to our Lord.
prayer and worship are not the same thing. those that pray fervently and intensely are those who with that longing want to someday see our Lord. and if they are saying the rosary they are respecting, and petitioning our holy Mother to ask God
for us. just like you asked your friend to “help” you to meet the president.

well i hope this helps and i ask Our Blessed Mother to pray for you.
 
I have a great deal of respect for Kempis, so I can understand the adoration of the saints. Yet, the Scripture is silent on Mary worship and I am curious why saints have felt the need to speak of her in such ways?

To me, Mary worship distracts from Jesus. Most would argue that through Mary, we look to Jesus but I would say to that: why not in Christ alone?

When you must ADD onto the Word, you find false doctrine.
You have alot of questions…may I suggest that you post in the Apologetics area?

Anyway, about Marian doctrines…this is a book recommendation:

Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn, which explains the Biblical basis, Tradition of the Mary.

I will leave with this little bit of a tidbit from a convert:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0088.html

First, I began to pray a rosary. I was very scared to do this. I asked the Lord not to be offended as I tried. I proceeded to pray, and as I prayed I felt more in my heart what I came to know in my mind: I am a child of God. I don’t just have God as my Father and Christ as my brother; I have His Mother for my own.

A friend of mine who had heard I was thinking about the Catholic Church called up one day and said: “Do you worship Mary like those Catholics do?” I said, “They don’t worship Mary; they honor Mary.” “Well, what’s the difference?” I said, “Let me explain. When Christ accepted the call from His Father to become a man, He accepted the responsibility to obey the law, the moral law which is summarized in the Ten Commandments. There’s a commandment which reads, ‘Honor your father and mother.’” I said, “Chris, in the original Hebrew, that word “honor,” kaboda, that Hebrew word means to glorify, to bestow whatever glory and honor you have upon your father and mother. Christ fulfilled that law more perfectly than any human by bestowing His glory upon His heavenly Father and by taking His own divine glory and honoring His Mother with it. All we do in the rosary, Chris, is to imitate Christ who honors His Mother with His own glory. We honor her with Christ’s glory.”
 
InChristAlone33

I think your concerns have been quite adequately answered in this thread, but I want to address something that I think was missed, and that’s the Rosary.

Regarding your concern over the number of Hail Mary’s said during this very holy devotion: while we recite that prayer, do you realize we’re meditation on specific events in Jesus’ life? We’re not praying to Mary, but rather, we’re keeping company with her while focusing on the life and ministry of her son. It’s impossible to truly love Christ if we reject His mother. Conversely, we show Him great love, by sharing in His mother’s love for Him.
 
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