Mary Worship

[Literalist]

nuntym said:

"Sola Scriptura is alien in early Christianity because of one simple fact: go early enough, and the early Christians didn’t even have the New Testament.

Can you find in the Bible which books are to be included in the canon of the Bible?

And who told you that the Bible is the Word of God, anyways? Then who told him/her? Then who told that guy/lady who told him/her? Then so on and so forth. Isn’t that tradition?"

I just gave some scriptures that clearly show that the early Christians had the Word of God as taught by the first believers … read the NT … there were “letters” sent to the early congregations and these have been incorporated into the NT

And I also said that most of the early church were were Israelites … these had knowledge of the OT as well which by the way contains many of the the same NT truths

I don’t know what you mean by your “him or her” statements you will have to be more expressive … and the scriptures are not just word of mouth as you seem to imply … they are the inspired Word of God and not the traditions of men

Who told you that the Bible is not the Word of God ? … God says it is His Word

Have you ever heard this statement? … even thought heaven and earth shall pass away, my Word will never pass away [it is in your Bible]

There are 66 books incorporated in the Bible … the apocrypha books were added later and there is ample evidence that the things written there in are not holy spirit inspired

Have you ever read them and made comparisons with the Bible and with recorded history?

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

nuntym said:

"Sola Scriptura is alien in early Christianity because of one simple fact: go early enough, and the early Christians didn’t even have the New Testament.

Can you find in the Bible which books are to be included in the canon of the Bible?

And who told you that the Bible is the Word of God, anyways? Then who told him/her? Then who told that guy/lady who told him/her? Then so on and so forth. Isn’t that tradition?"

I just gave some scriptures that clearly show that the early Christians had the Word of God as taught by the first believers … read the NT … there were “letters” sent to the early congregations and these have been incorporated into the NT

OK, tell us from Scripture what these letters are, exactly.

And I also said that most of the early church were were Israelites … these had knowledge of the OT as well which by the way contains many of the the same NT truths

Many, not all.

I don’t know what you mean by your “him or her” statements you will have to be more expressive … and the scriptures are not just word of mouth as you seem to imply … they are the inspired Word of God and not the traditions of men

Who told you that the Bible is not the Word of God ? … God says it is His Word

Have you ever heard this statement? … even thought heaven and earth shall pass away, my Word will never pass away [it is in your Bible]

Oh, you mean you just picked up a Bible one day, not knowing it is the purported “Word of God”, without prior knowledge from other people?

There are 66 books incorporated in the Bible … the apocrypha books were added later and there is ample evidence that the things written there in are not holy spirit inspired

Show me that in the Bible. If you can’t, then you have to look at tradition to know the canon. And who am I going to listen to, your 500 year old Protestant tradition, or the 2000 year old traditions of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

Have you ever read them and made comparisons with the Bible and with recorded history?

Woah, I thought you want to look at Scripture only?

 

[pablope]

nuntym said:

"Have you ever read them and made comparisons with the Bible and with recorded history?

Literalist…allow me to give you some response tips…your responses are hard to read…it is difficult to read the original from your replies.

When responding to a post…delete this "

" from either the beginning or end of the post…to release the formatting.

Highlight a section of the post you are responding to…and use the "Quote’ button on the top of the response box…to enclose it…and then type your response to the sentence/paragraph you wish to respond to.

The quote button is next to the “#” button on the top. You still have a few minutes to fix your responses.

 

[pablope]

nuntym said:

Who told you that the Bible is not the Word of God ? … God says it is His Word

 

[Fragile]

Forgive me if this has already been addressed, as I haven’t gone through every page here, but on the first page I saw talk of “degrees of worship” and “adoration of Mary”, both ideas I believe are forbidden by the Church towards any but God…?

 

[pablope]

"
I have studied the scriptures for over 40 years including biblical exegesis of the prophetic time line

 

[Slaney]

I have studied the scriptures for over 40 years including biblical exegesis of the prophetic time line

Well hardly a stamp of approval, since the learned men of the temple were amazed by the wisdom of a twelve year old…

 

[snarflemike]

I’m coming to this thread very late, but I wanted to point out to the OP that the Catholic Mass, her highest form of worship, is totally centered around God, not Mary. For example, God is referred to more than 100 times, Mary 2 times.

One other point - Catholics always and everywhere deny that they worship Mary, and claim it would be a grave sin to worship her. If they DID worship Mary, why in the world would they deny it? Do you see Catholics denying that they worship God the Father, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? If we TRULY worshipped Mary, and TRULY believed we would go to hell for denying it (have you considered this aspect?), what could possibly cause us to deny it over and over and over?

 

[mymamamary]

I can’t find sola scriptura in the Bible. Which therfore undoes all Protestanistic arguements.

 

[Doxiemom]

I can’t find sola scriptura in the Bible. Which therfore undoes all Protestanistic arguements.

Sola Scripture isn’t in the bible. IT IS the Bible.

 

[snarflemike]

Sola Scripture isn’t in the bible. IT IS the Bible.

You don’t know what the bible is, from the bible.

 

[Church_Militant]

And I do not ignore any scripture of the Bible … not one, all of it is God breathed [inspired] … it is when one goes outside of the Bible and adds the traditions of men that generates error and confusion.

Which is precisely why your errant doctrine is wrong. You cannot supply a single passage of scripture that lays claim to the final and ultimate authority that you say belongs to the Bible because, quite simply, it’s not there. Not even if you search the Catholic Bible with all 73 of the original books.

Before you waste your time trying, you might examine these 3 threads where others have sought to provide your supposed proof texts.

• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)
• “If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”

As for the allegation of Mary worship…the church has not ever, does not now, nor will it ever teach such a thing. There are some anti-Catholics who like to preach that we do, but that’s just their wishful thinking and propaganda to bash our most holy faith. I defy anyone to provide an authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching document to show otherwise. If you cannot produce same…I suggest that you drop it and find a real issue with an authentic belief of the Catholic Church.

As Archbishop Fulton Sheen used to say:

“Few people in America hate the Catholic religion,
but there are many who hate
what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion
—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion,
Catholics would hate it too.”

 

[Church_Militant]

For me, my main concern and suspicion of the Catholic faith is the emphasis of Mary: praying to and worship of. Recently, I was at an event that was centered on prayer and one prayer to Mary included terms like “Queen of Heaven, free of original sin, Perpetual Virgin,” etc. Not to mention that the Rosary was prayed 10 times, about 15 sets.

None of which is Biblical but based on tradition.

Really? Let me suggest that you take the time to read the following articles from my blog.

• The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
• Reasons Why I Believe in The Blessed Virgin Mary’s Assumption

and then perhaps look at all these from Catholic Answers itself:

• Perpetual Virginity: Why is this important?
• Mary: Ever Virgin
• How do we know Mary was a perpetual virgin?
• Why should any doctrine not explicitly referred to in the Bible, be listened to?
• How do you respond to “Everything you need to know is in the Bible”?
• How can we know a doctrine is true if it’s not in the Bible?
• How do we know that the Protoevangelium of James is credible?
• Does Church Tradition exist only to interpret Scripture?
• Non-Canonical Writings…
• Oral Traditions not found in the Bible
• Immaculate Conception and Assumption

Yet, Jesus was not given this much attention.

That’s ridiculous. I suggest that you haul yourself to Mass and sit and pay careful attention to the prayers and preaching. You’ll come away feeling foolish for ever having made that statement.

See also:

• The Intercession of the Saints (Fathers*)
• Praying to the Saints
• Saint Worship?

Catholics defend they do not worship Mary but their actions, especially of the extravagant prayers I heard this weekend, speak otherwise.

Worship:

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

Since when does a dictionary definition adequately speak on religious terms.
There is a vast difference between the veneration (hyperdulia) we have for the Blessed Virgin and the adoration (latria) which is our worship of God alone.

As someone who was interested and attracted to the Catholic faith, the validity of it has been undermined by the worship (as seen in the definition) of Mary.

The only thing that’s been undermined is your own poor scholarship. See above…
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

There are other issues I have: confession to a priest, Mass, infant baptism, pope infallibility.

Again…these scattergun type allegations make it difficult to respond in a cohesive manner, but I suggest that you see the following links and if you have further issues, open a new thread on each topic as per the forum Rules.

Meanwhile, see:
Catholic Confession
Scriptures About Penance

Get a copy of A Biblical Walk Through the Mass by Dr. Edward Sri.

The Case For Infant Baptism

In what sense is the Pope Infallible?

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).

Then you have been deceived by people teaching you the error of Sola Scriptura, which, if you look at the post above this one, you’ll see has no bass in the Word of God and violates its own doctrinal premise.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I don’t think you can be “Catholic” and remain outside of this dogma

The Rosary requirement you are alluding to is not dogma.

I would suggest that you do not tell the Pope

I’m sure the Pope has other things to worry about than telling to me to practice something even his Holiness is not required… or did you not get that message?

I repeat: What makes you think Marian devotion is mandatory to Catholics?

it would seem to get less confusing- can’t one of the visionaries ask her?

Doesn’t change the fact that I’m not getting excommunicated for NOT caring.

Heck, you could walk right up to me claiming a message from the Virgin Mary and the best you’ll get is a free ride to the local bishop’s office.

 

[Godisgreat23]

Its not compulsary by the catholic church but why would you not pray it on a daily basis after all there are 15 promises of the Rosary

1 Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.
3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies
4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.
9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.
12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death
14. All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.
15. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

Padre Pio prayed the rosary entire 15 decades atleast 30 times a day… He bore the wounds of Christ what other proof do you want that the Rosary is a powerful weapon against the Evils of this earth

Padre pio body has remained incorrupt to this very day… Isn’t that Divine intervention.

 

[kaizen]

As a rededicated Christian, I have come to appreciate Catholicism through reading “Imitation of Christ,” by Kempis. I was not raised Catholic but in the Assembly of God, and I was familiar with the criticism of the Catholic faith.

As many of you have seen on this board, Catholicism is highly debated and rebuked in the Protestant churches and most Catholics simply do not “see” the justification of these rebukes.

For me, my main concern and suspicion of the Catholic faith is the emphasis of Mary: praying to and worship of. Recently, I was at an event that was centered on prayer and one prayer to Mary included terms like “Queen of Heaven, free of original sin, Perpetual Virgin,” etc. Not to mention that the Rosary was prayed 10 times, about 15 sets.

None of which is Biblical but based on tradition.

Yet, Jesus was not given this much attention.

Catholics defend they do not worship Mary but their actions, especially of the extravagant prayers I heard this weekend, speak otherwise.

Worship:

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

As someone who was interested and attracted to the Catholic faith, the validity of it has been undermined by the worship (as seen in the definition) of Mary. There are other issues I have: confession to a priest, Mass, infant baptism, pope infallibility.

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).

“Worship” means to acknowledge God as the supreme being, and to honor and serve him as such. We give God the supreme act of worship by offering him the greatest possible sacrifice we can give: Jesus himself (this is done through the Sacrifice of the Mass).

To “venerate” Mary means to acknowledge all the revealed truths about her (the source of divine revelation is Jesus, who sent the Apostles to teach everything he taught, and the Apostles carefully ordained successors to continue their teaching ministry until the end of time), to honor her based on those truths, to imitate her virtues, and to ask her to pray for us.

I understand your confusion because the “externals” of worship and veneration are similar: we pray to God, we pray to Mary; we kneel to God, we kneel to Mary; we offer something to God, we offer something to Mary. The distinction lies with the intention. For example, when I pray to God, it is simply because I acknowledge him as my Creator; but when I pray to Mary, it is because I believe she is far holier than me and when I ask her to pray for me, I can be sure that God will be more pleased (of course, when I committed a grave sin, I am not taught to go to Mary and pray the rosary, and stuffs like that … Instead I must go to confession, which is an act of humility not before Mary but before God who alone can forgive sins through a validly ordained priest.)

So the key is to see the whole picture – what does “Catholic spirituality” really consists of. Is it all about praying the rosary 24/7? Definitely not! I suggest you take time and effort reading the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Catholicism is not “obsessed” with Mary and is certainly not neglecting the Lord Jesus.

God bless you, and I will pray for you (I promise!)

 

[Literalist]

nuntym said:

:“OK, tell us from Scripture what these letters are, exactly”:

The early church had the complete set of NT letters [Epistles from Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude] and the Lord’s own admonition to the early church given in Revelation 1; 2; 3

The early church also has the entire OT including the visions of the Bible prophets

The Bible is one book … and it is totally integrated … all of it is the Word of God … totally inspired by God

 

[Literalist]

nuntym said:

“Oh, you mean you just picked up a Bible one day, not knowing it is the purported “Word of God”, without prior knowledge from other people?”

Actually I picked up a Bible as an agnostic for the purpose of attempting to disprove it … however, I discovered that it is in fact exactly what it claims to be … the very word of the Living God

“Quote:
Originally Posted by Literalist
Have you ever read them and made comparisons with the Bible and with recorded history?
Woah, I thought you want to look at Scripture only?”

Now you are playing a game with your words … I have and do read volumes of many of the writings of men for gaining knowledge [event those that I disagree with]

But when it comes to the knowledge of truth there is only one source … the word of the living God contained within the Bible

 

[Literalist]

Slaney asked:

"So why then did Jesus say, " Anything you ask from the Father in my name will be given to you “?”

Good point Slaney … and additionally…, anything according to His will be can given to you … if you ask for anything else, it will not be given to you

He will only give according to His will

He is the Lord and we are not