Mary?

[RonWI]

mrS4ntA:

She does. it’s precisely by her unique role in the economy of salvation and the redemption of Man that she is hailed as coredemptrix and mediatrix.

1 Timothy 2:

5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…

How can the contradiction be any more clear? Paul says there is one: Jesus. mrS4ntA says there is more than one: Jesus and Mary.

It is one thing to add to the Bible. It is another entirely to flatly contradict it.

 

[yochumjy]

RonWI:

Verse 38 does not answer my original question: At what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? Gabriel’s statement “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is not a question. It is a statement of fact.

The quote “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is an ANSWER to Mary who says,

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

You notice Mary did not say no at any point. She asks how that could be with her keeping her oath. She is open to God’s suggestion at all times, but she wishes to retain her oath. She is never told what to do, just HOW it could be done. Then she formally accepts.

 

[justaccord]

It’s easy when you throw out the Bible, call yourself “infallible” and make whatever rules you want. The only thing is you have to admit that catechism #969 and 1 Tim 2.5 are in direct and irreconciliable conflict. I for one will cast my lot with God and His Word in preference to the words of men. There are many religions in the world based on the words of men. They are worthless in terms of eternal value. There is only one faith based on the revelation of the true God. And you sacrifice it so you can worship a mortal human. Mary is entiteld to great respect. She is not divine and has no place as a mediator or redeemer.

 

[yochumjy]

1 Timothy 2:

5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…

How can the contradiction be any more clear? Paul says there is one: Jesus. mrS4ntA says there is more than one: Jesus and Mary.

It is one thing to add to the Bible. It is another entirely to flatly contradict it.

Mary is actually a mediator to Christ, not God. There is no contradiction. No one contends that Mary replaces Christ as a mediator to the Father.

 

[yochumjy]

justaccord:

It’s easy when you throw out the Bible, call yourself “infallible” and make whatever rules you want. The only thing is you have to admit that catechism #969 and 1 Tim 2.5 are in direct and irreconciliable conflict. I for one will cast my lot with God and His Word in preference to the words of men. There are many religions in the world based on the words of men. They are worthless in terms of eternal value. There is only one faith based on the revelation of the true God. And you sacrifice it so you can worship a mortal human. Mary is entiteld to great respect. She is not divine and has no place as a mediator or redeemer.

They are not in direct conflict at all. They complement each other.

Please say exactly what you think is in conflict.

 

[RonWI]

yochumjy:

The quote “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is an ANSWER to Mary who says,

You notice Mary did not say no at any point. She asks how that could be with her keeping her oath. She is open to God’s suggestion at all times, but she wishes to retain her oath. She is never told what to do, just HOW it could be done. Then she formally accepts.

*Again, at what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? Gabriel’s statement “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is not a question. It is a statement of fact. Yes, Mary asked a question, and Gabriel answered it. But Gabriel did not ask Mary anything. He told her – not how it COULD be done – but what WAS to happen. He said “the Holy Spirit will…”, not “if you accept, the Holy Spirit could…”. *

 

[Genesis315]

*Again, at what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? Gabriel’s statement “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is not a question. It is a statement of fact. Yes, Mary asked a question, and Gabriel answered it. But Gabriel did not ask Mary anything. He told her – not how it COULD be done – but what WAS to happen. He said “the Holy Spirit will…”, not “if you accept, the Holy Spirit could…”. *

Are you saying Mary did not consent? Are you saying the Holy Spirit would have raped Mary if she did not consent? God doesn’t force us to do anything.

 

[Milliardo]

1 Timothy 2:

5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…

How can the contradiction be any more clear? Paul says there is one: Jesus. mrS4ntA says there is more than one: Jesus and Mary.

It is one thing to add to the Bible. It is another entirely to flatly contradict it.

If we pray for one another, we act as co-mediators with Christ. So now does that mean we must not pray for one another, as only Christ is the mediator?

 

[RonWI]

yochumjy:

Mary is actually a mediator to Christ, not God. There is no contradiction. No one contends that Mary replaces Christ as a mediator to the Father.

I agree that no one contends that Mary replaces Christ. The contention I see is that Mary is added to the population of mediators, which , according to Paul, is a population of 1.

Why do we need a mediator to Christ? Christ said “let the little children come to me.” Take him at his word.

 

[Milliardo]

*Again, at what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? Gabriel’s statement “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is not a question. It is a statement of fact. Yes, Mary asked a question, and Gabriel answered it. But Gabriel did not ask Mary anything. He told her – not how it COULD be done – but what WAS to happen. He said “the Holy Spirit will…”, not “if you accept, the Holy Spirit could…”. *

You have to understand that Gabriel’s announcement doesn’t have to be a question, right? But that’s not the real point. The point is that Mary could have rejected it, but she didn’t.

 

[RonWI]

Genesis315:

Are you saying Mary did not consent? Are you saying the Holy Spirit would have raped Mary if she did not consent? God doesn’t force us to do anything.

What on earth is your definition of rape? The Holy Spirit did not take bodily form and have sex with Mary. As we all agree, Mary was a virgin AFTER the Holy Spirit came upon her.

This is a mystery. There was no intercourse. There was no rape.

 

[yochumjy]

*Again, at what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? Gabriel’s statement “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is not a question. It is a statement of fact. Yes, Mary asked a question, and Gabriel answered it. But Gabriel did not ask Mary anything. He told her – not how it COULD be done – but what WAS to happen. He said “the Holy Spirit will…”, not “if you accept, the Holy Spirit could…”. *

Sorry, that is incorrect. You are now propossing that while Gabriel answered Mary’s question he also imposed God’s will on her. Which is it, is Gabriel answering a question or forcing Mary? You have agreed that Gabriel was answering a question. The answer to Mary’s question of “How can this be” is “The Holy Spirit will come upon you…” Note that either Gabriel is answering the question OR ignoring it. Which is it?

Second, this can be seen as a proposition. Gabriel can be seen as proposing this to Mary. Mary DOES formally accept. If Mary is accepting then there is either an implied question or an acknowledgment of force. So, is God the God of Love, who allows us to freely choose, or is he a God forcing us to do his will. If God does not force us, then Mary had a choice and she chose to be the Hand Maiden of the Lord.

 

[yochumjy]

RonWI:

I agree that no one contends that Mary replaces Christ. The contention I see is that Mary is added to the population of mediators, which , according to Paul, is a population of 1.

Why do we need a mediator to Christ? Christ said “let the little children come to me.” Take him at his word.

I do take him at his word. And Paul also says that we should pray for each other. If you can pray for me, then Mary, who is close to Jesus in Heaven can also pray for me. Paul believes in more than a population of one mediator, otherwise, he would not let anyone pray for him. Oh, and which verse are you talking about, could you please quote it for me. I’m curious as the context. For indeed, Christ is the ONLY mediator to the Father. I don’t believe that he ever says anything about no need for any prayers to Christ but through yourself.

 

[yochumjy]

RonWI:

What on earth is your definition of rape? The Holy Spirit did not take bodily form and have sex with Mary. As we all agree, Mary was a virgin AFTER the Holy Spirit came upon her.

This is a mystery. There was no intercourse. There was no rape.

You are assuming that sex is only physical. That rape is only a crime of flesh and not spirit. That is incorrect. The reason rape is so heinous is that it is a crime on a physical, mental and spiritual level. God made sex a creative union. The creation of a new soul is what God intended for sex. For God to force a new soul into Mary without consent would imply a mental and spiritual rape. God does not force his will upon us. We always have to consent to do his will. Neither you, nor I and in this case Mary is a puppet on a string.

Look at it this way, why did Gabriel even talk to Mary BEFORE the pregnancy? Why are there words of acceptance in the Bible from Mary? God could have just impregnated her and told her to keep the child in a dream. Why the visitation from an angel?

 

[RonWI]

Milliardo:

The point is that Mary could have rejected it, but she didn’t.

Gabriel: The Holy Spirit will come upon you.

Mary: Noooooooo he won’t.

Gabriel: Yes. He will.

Mary: No… He will not.

Gabriel: It is part of God’s plan. You have to let him.

Mary: I don’t care. It’s not gonna happen.

Gabriel: Alright. But he is NOT going to be happy.

Seriously folks. Consider Mary’s encounter with Gabriel in light of the Word of God (Ephesians 2):

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Mary, like all who are saved, was God’s workmanship. Any response that she had (see verse 38) was itself a gift of God. That gift is not something that SHE can take credit for.

 

[Milliardo]

RonWI:

Mary, like all who are saved, was God’s workmanship. Any response that she had (see verse 38) was itself a gift of God. That gift is not something that SHE can take credit for.

Mary has free will, yes? She is free to either accept or reject Gabriel’s announcement. God is not someone who will force Himself on us, and that would include Mary. That her response is a gift of God is undeniable, but that still doesn’t mean she doesn’t have free will. She has a choice, and she chose God.

 

[yochumjy]

RonWI:

Mary, like all who are saved, was God’s workmanship. Any response that she had (see verse 38) was itself a gift of God. That gift is not something that SHE can take credit for.

So, you believe that nothing good that you choose to do is a choice. You are forced/predestined by God to do everything you do. Which means that us praying to Mary is fine. It also means that you typing on this forum is useless.

EIther that, or we can not take credit for Gifts from God, but we can accept God into our life or reject him. If we have a choice then so did Mary. God Loves each and every one of us. To those of us that listen, grace will result. To those of us that don’t, God will continue to call. You’re little conversation that I deleted was ignorant of God’s Love for us and his desire for our free will.

 

[RonWI]

yochumjy:

You are assuming that sex is only physical. That rape is only a crime of flesh and not spirit. That is incorrect. The reason rape is so heinous is that it is a crime on a physical, mental and spiritual level. God made sex a creative union. The creation of a new soul is what God intended for sex. For God to force a new soul into Mary without consent would imply a mental and spiritual rape. God does not force his will upon us. We always have to consent to do his will. Neither you, nor I and in this case Mary is a puppet on a string.

Yes, sex is physical. Consent or not, Mary did not have sex with the Holy Spirit. She remained a virgin. I have never heard the Catholic Church teach that Mary had mental sex with the Holy Spirit.

 

[LostThenFound]

RonWI:

Verse 38 does not answer my original question: At what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? Gabriel’s statement “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is not a question. It is a statement of fact.

RonWI,
It makes no difference whether Gabriel “asked” Mary anything. There are many times when God Himself TOLD (not asked) people what to do. But did they cooperate? No. Remember Adam and Eve, Moses, Jonah, etc. Mary could have been in this list, but she is not.

 

[RonWI]

yochumjy:

So, you believe that nothing good that you choose to do is a choice. You are forced/predestined by God to do everything you do. Which means that us praying to Mary is fine. It also means that you typing on this forum is useless.

EIther that, or we can not take credit for Gifts from God, but we can accept God into our life or reject him. If we have a choice then so did Mary. God Loves each and every one of us. To those of us that listen, grace will result. To those of us that don’t, God will continue to call. You’re little conversation that I deleted was ignorant of God’s Love for us and his desire for our free will.

Imagine that you are going to a fancy dinner. You are a poor student. Your wardrobe reflects this. A nice man comes to your door and gives you a tuxedo. an hour before the dinner.

Yes, you can choose to wear the ragged blue jeans and T-Shirt. But you choose the tux instead. You go to the dinner and everyone says “nice outfit”. Who gets credit: you or the nice man?

Or imagine this. You are running a marathon. Half way through, someone offers you a ride in the back of their convertible. You choose to get in and ride in style across the finish line. Who gets credit for the victory?

Now I realize that all analogies break down at some level, but I hope these make my point. Nothing was imposed on Mary because she did not resist God’s will. But just like we have faith, not because we choose it but because it is given to us (although we can choose to reject it), Mary’s choice, while a choice, was a gift.