Mary.

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freesoulhope

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I dont like to face issues like this because i lack the undestading, and it feeds on my doubts and insercruity when it comes to being a catholic. i feel that if sombody asks me this qeustion i have to have a reasonable anwser to back it up. i have been confronted with the issue about the sinless mary. I believe in all the church teachings, but this qeustion bugs me none the less. I haven’t been asked why i believe mary wasn’t a sinner, that would be an easier thing to answer. The question that bothers me is, why did god make mary sinless, and allow the rest of the human race to be born sinners. I need an anwsers, my enermys draw near and seeks to slay my brothers and sisters as a result of my weak use of god given wisdom and apolegetics. The best anwser, i can think of is, "god had mercy on us and saved mary from sin, so that we can be saved through jesus, This is the best i can think of, but i feel that maybe a weak anwser if sombody confronted me on the issue. I was scared to ask this qeustion, because i did not want to cause confusion to those who are new to catholisim or cause any doubt, please forgive, me if i do, ( maybe i worry to much ) :confused:
 
Dear Friend in Christ, Have you had a chance to look in the “Library” part of the Catholic Answers web page? On the left margin on the home page (in blue) is a column named “Library.” Look under the category of Mary and the Saints, and there’s an article about Mary’s Immaculate Conception. It clearly explains the basics of Catholic teaching on Our Blessed Mother’s sinlessness. The Library is also a great resourse for other questions you may have.

God the Father did not have to create Mary without sin - God could have made Jesus’ human body sinless even if He had been conceived in the womb of a sinner - it wasn’t necessary, but it was extremely fitting.

One way of looking at Mary’s sinlessness is this: all sin wounds Jesus. Giving Jesus a mother who would never wound Him by sinning was possibly the greatest gift God the Father could have given God the Son. God Bless you in your journey as you grow closer to Him.
 
  1. Mary the new Eve. It was fitting that the human race should be restored to grace in a manner similar to the manner in which it fell from grace. The human race fell from grace through the disobedience of a previously sinless man and woman, Adam and Eve, and the human race was restored to grace through the obedience of a sinless man and woman, Jesus and Mary.
  2. Mary the Ark of the New Covanant. It was fitting that she who would carry the holy Son of God in her womb for nine months and nurse Him at her breasts for three (?) years should herself be holy.
 
One other thing to remember is that Mary was full of grace. As such she was in perfect communion with God’s desires eventhough she was created human. You and I are far from being full of grace. Most days I think I only have about a quarter tank. 🙂 That being the case, it’s often difficult to comprehend a completely sinless human.
 
freesoulhope said:
I dont like to face issues like this because i lack the undestading, and it feeds on my doubts and insercruity when it comes to being a catholic. i feel that if sombody asks me this qeustion i have to have a reasonable anwser to back it up. i have been confronted with the issue about the sinless mary. I believe in all the church teachings, but this qeustion bugs me none the less. I haven’t been asked why i believe mary wasn’t a sinner, that would be an easier thing to answer. The question that bothers me is, why did god make mary sinless, and allow the rest of the human race to be born sinners. I need an anwsers, my enermys draw near and seeks to slay my brothers and sisters as a result of my weak use of god given wisdom and apolegetics. The best anwser, i can think of is, "god had mercy on us and saved mary from sin, so that we can be saved through jesus, This is the best i can think of, but i feel that maybe a weak anwser if sombody confronted me on the issue. I was scared to ask this qeustion, because i did not want to cause confusion to those who are new to catholisim or cause any doubt, please forgive, me if i do, ( maybe i worry to much ) :confused:

Didn’t I read in another thread you wanted to set up a website and be an apologetic. How will you be able to defend the faith if you feel weak and insecure as a Catholic?
Its one thing not knowing all the answers (none of us do) but that in itself should not make you weak in your faith. We have to believe and accept all the teachings of the Church even if we don’t fully understand them.
 
Peace be with you!

You know, a priest gave a great homily on New Years Day for the Feast of Mary the Mother of God. He concluded his homily by saying, “And if anyone ever asks you why, as a Catholic, you love Mary, say, ‘Because God does’. It’s that simple.” I think this really sums it up.

In Christ,
Rand
 
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freesoulhope:
The question that bothers me is, why did god make mary sinless, and allow the rest of the human race to be born sinners.
Rest assured, Mary is not the only one born sinless. Both the Prophet Jeremiah and John the Baptist were born sinless.

hurst
 
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hurst:
Rest assured, Mary is not the only one born sinless. Both the Prophet Jeremiah and John the Baptist were born sinless.

hurst
Peace be with you!

No, I don’t think that’s true. Where did you get that from?

In Christ,
Rand
 
The only passage in the Bible used by most anti-Catholics in denouncing Mary’s sinlessness is Romans 3:10-18. It’s as if they are saying that:
  • Mary is not righteous (Romans 3:10)
  • Mary has no understanding (Romans 3:11)
  • Mary does not seek God (Romans 3:11)
  • Mary had turned aside and has become worthless (Romans 3:12)
  • Mary does not show kindness (Romans 3:12)
  • Mary’s throat is like an open grave (Romans 3:13)
  • Mary use her tongue to deceive (Romans 3:13)
  • The venom of vipers is under Mary’s lips (Romans 3:13)
  • Mary’s mouth is full of cursing and bitterness (Romans 3:14)
  • Mary’s feet are swift to shed blood (Romans 3:15)
  • Ruin and misery is in Mary’s paths (Romans 3:16)
  • Mary does not know the way of peace (Romans 3:17)
  • Mary does not fear God (Romans 3:18)
The Bible doesn’t teach this things about Mary, but that is what anti-Catholics want us to believe. I don’t understand why they hate Mary so much… She is full of grace (Luke 1:28), she is blessed among women (Luke 1:42), and God has done GREAT THINGS FOR HER (Luke 1:49). What kind of proof do they need???
 
Good luck getting a good answer; I’ve asked repeatedly, and still get nothing. Also, to question the doctrines regarding Mary is not to hate her.
God the Father did not have to create Mary without sin - God could have made Jesus’ human body sinless even if He had been conceived in the womb of a sinner - it wasn’t necessary, but it was extremely fitting.
This is precisely why I cannot understand the “ark” nonsense. I can fully accept the Immaculate Conception under this understanding, but this is the first I have herd it pointed out as being merely “fitting” rather than an actual “requirement” as it is usually presented as, especially under the Ark of the New Covenant argument. The problem becomes, then, why is this a Dogma (ie, a Necessary article of Faith), if it was not necessary to begin with. Same thing for the Assumption, but I don’t want to digress too far.
  1. Mary the new Eve.
Yes, but as is always detailed, it is because she assented to God’s will when tested, in contradiction to Eve, who rejected the plan. As such, Mary does not need to be sinless prior to giving her assent, but that assent would, as it is detailed, istelf be the human element of repentance necessary to repair the rift of Sin on our, Human, part.
  1. Mary the Ark of the New Covanant.
Did the Ark of moses only bear the Seat of God for nine months, or any limited time? No. It is Jesus, the flesh, that, as Aquinas points out, whois the Ark of the New Covenant, the fleshly vessel which was quickened by the very soul of God (and had no other). At best, Mary was the shittim tree from which the wood was taken to make the OT Ark, just as it was from Mary’s body that the Christ was made manifest.
One other thing to remember is that Mary was full of grace.
And while a nice, and singular, passage, its context does not suggest that we can add the weight of force that has been heaped upon it to suggest that such greeting should mandate the necessity of Mary being both Immaculate and Impeccible, or even simply either/or. It is a stretch to add such late developments in the idea of Grace, and what it means to be “full of” it to a passage that is not repeated in such “strong” language in other Gospels that did record the incidient.

Once again, I’d sincerily like to know the answers as well, because the ones usually used fall far short of explaining this issue in a manner that re-inforces its role as an actual Dei Fide Dogma of the Church. The only argument so far that can stick is that it must be aquiesed to simply as a matter of Obedience to the Authority of the Pope; something which does not really establish the consistency of the marian Dogma as being, in itself, theologically necessary to one’s Salvation.

If someone could just tell me how the IC or the Assumption are matters of Theological Necessity that has weight on my own Salvation, then I would be more than happy to accept it. I pray with Mary, and I do get the sense that she understands my struggle, and is not perceiving it as an affront to her honor to seek out these answers (despite what others have said on other threads about these topics when Mary is questioned). Some of you may find this suprising, but I fully accept the Queen of Heaven reference. I am just having problems with why a popular devotion became binding upon my soul/Christianity, especially in light of the fact that the Church does express a limit as to what doctrines can actually become Dogma.

Thanks.
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Originally Posted by hurst
Rest assured, Mary is not the only one born sinless. Both the Prophet Jeremiah and John the Baptist were born sinless.
Peace be with you!

No, I don’t think that’s true. Where did you get that from?
From scripture.

Regarding Jeremiah,

Jeremias 1:1 The words of Jeremias the son of Helcias, of the priests that were in Anathoth, in the land of Benjamin. 2 The word of the Lord which came to him in the days of Josias the son of Amon king of Juda, in the thirteenth year of his reign. 3 And which came to him in the days of Joakim the son of Josias king of Juda, unto the end of the eleventh year of Sedecias the son of Josias king of Juda, even unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive, in the fifth month. 4 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 5 Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

As for John the Baptist,

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John: 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice in his nativity. 15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

Not only that, but the Church celebrates the Nativity of John the Baptist as well as his martyrdom. The only other nativities the Church officially celebrates (that I know of) are for Jesus and Mary. We don’t celebrate OT figures that I know of, perhaps since John the Baptist is the greatest of the Prophets. That is just another indication of his recognized holiness.

hurst
 
While the leaping infants don’t really add to the argument, you have just shown that John the B was also immaculately conceived, and in far stronger language than can be found for Mary.

Afterall, how can one be Full of the Holy Spirit, uness one is free from the stain of OS, and therefore full of Grace? If you want to go too far with it, you could point out that John’s state was superior, because he was full of the Holy Spirit, and his sanctity was such that Grace, itself, was not a necessary intermediary (as, really, why would you need Grace if you were truly (that is, inherently) free from sin? Is it not Grace which restores us, through Divine Mercy, to a “sinless” state, allowing us to be filled with the Holy Spirit? IF we (a hypothetical “we”) were sinless from our creation, then what does Grace grant over and above the fullness of the indwelling Holy Spirit? Grace is an attribute/gift of God, but the Holy Spirit is God himself.).
😉

Note, however, Jeremiah was Sanctified after his creation (even if prior to birth), so he does not share in the same “gift” of inherent sinlessness apparently afforded John the B and Mary. Further, it does not address (or rather, limit) the possibility of Jeremiah having committed a sin after birth.
 
But, regardless of weather jeremiah or John were truly inherently sinless, as is argued for Mary; none of these things are items of theology that have any bearing on my soul as a follower of Christ.

A “unique” grace afforded to another does not merit my own condition anything except to reinforce my own sinfulness and separation from God in a manner that removes Hope. John’s sinlessness does not affect on any level my own state in life, and has no role to play in my salvation. John’s (and Mary’s) IC does not in any way define a point of theology that defines God or Christ in a manner that makes it a significant point of Faith to adhere to.

Contrast this with Mary’s virginal conception of Christ. Such a belief in Mary is a theological requirement due to its identifying, through fulfillment of prophesy, that Jesus is indeed the Christ. Rejecting this point would be to deny that Jesus was the Chrsit, and therefore one’s Creedal faith is undermined by a rejection of the incarnation of God, which necessarily has bearing on your Faith in who and what God is, the most basic and fundamental element of a faith in God.

Neither the IC or Assumption has a theological element necessary to it character to have this impact on holding a correct faith. The sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to establish a belief in the generosity and mercy of God, therefore the usual arguments (“well, God just loved her sooooooo much…”) have no theological weight to anyone’s faith as a matter of necessity for the correct belief of Christianity to the point of salvation.

Perhaps I am expecting too much of them in holding them, as “Dogma” to being on par in importance with the Creedal Dogmas that are truly universally held, rather than suborning them to some lesser level. Even still, as a principle, they should have some theological character inherent within them, as doctrines, in order to be eligible to be established as Dogma; I just cannot find it.
 
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BJRumph:
While the leaping infants don’t really add to the argument, you have just shown that John the B was also immaculately conceived, and in far stronger language than can be found for Mary.
Not that he was immaculately “conceived”, but rather “born”. He was sanctified in the womb and born without original sin, but that does not make his conception immaculate.

That Mary was conceived immaculately brings her parents into the picture. St. Anne and St. Joachim must have been very holy and also been given a great grace.
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BJRumph:
Afterall, how can one be Full of the Holy Spirit, uness one is free from the stain of OS, and therefore full of Grace?
He was made free of OS after conception but before birth.
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BJRumph:
If you want to go too far with it, you could point out that John’s state was superior, because he was full of the Holy Spirit, and his sanctity was such that Grace, itself, was not a necessary intermediary (as, really, why would you need Grace if you were truly (that is, inherently) free from sin?
Interesting point, but note that he was filled upon Mary greeting Elizabeth. He did not fill himself, nor was he inherently sinless. He had to be sanctified first. Perhaps the act of God filling him with the Holy Spirit caused his sanctification, too.
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BJRumph:
Is it not Grace which restores us, through Divine Mercy, to a “sinless” state, allowing us to be filled with the Holy Spirit?
Sounds correct.
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BJRumph:
IF we (a hypothetical “we”) were sinless from our creation, then what does Grace grant over and above the fullness of the indwelling Holy Spirit? Grace is an attribute/gift of God, but the Holy Spirit is God himself.).
😉
Sounds good. Thus, Adam and Eve were in the state of original grace and justice, but were not “filled” with the Holy Spirit.

By the way, grace has multiple meanings, and various aspects.
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BJRumph:
Note, however, Jeremiah was Sanctified after his creation (even if prior to birth), so he does not share in the same “gift” of inherent sinlessness apparently afforded John the B and Mary. Further, it does not address (or rather, limit) the possibility of Jeremiah having committed a sin after birth.
Agreed

hurst
 
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BJRumph:
But, regardless of weather jeremiah or John were truly inherently sinless, as is argued for Mary; none of these things are items of theology that have any bearing on my soul as a follower of Christ.
How about cause for gratitude and praise to God for what He did in those saints for the working of salvation? How about the increased regard we can have for Jesus Christ, given that such a holy prophet considers himself the doorman for the one we follow?
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BJRumph:
A “unique” grace afforded to another does not merit my own condition anything except to reinforce my own sinfulness and separation from God in a manner that removes Hope.
Removes hope? Do you envy them? Is your chance of becoming sinless lessened by their having it?

Actually, our hope for being made sinless is increased by what God did in them, and thus our hope is increased. For they ushered in the Savior who takes away our sins!

The only thing lost is our ability to brag that we didn’t need to be saved from sin. But Jeremiah, John, and Mary were saved and/or preserved from sin by God and not by their own doing. We can however give them credit for cooperating with God in the plan He had for their lives. They truly had to give up their own will and live for God.
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BJRumph:
John’s sinlessness does not affect on any level my own state in life, and has no role to play in my salvation.
John’s (and Mary’s) IC does not in any way define a point of theology that defines God or Christ in a manner that makes it a significant point of Faith to adhere to.
I don’t believe John was immaculately conceived, but only that he was born without OS and led a sinless life.

But John’s sinlessness is not a major doctrinal point anyway. Mary’s is. But both of them are suitable and fitting as pointers to the messiah. Afterall, if some sinless and holy person, who was without precedent says they are the handmaid or the doorman of another, then what does that tell you of the other? It is part of the gospel that Jesus is God made man. It does form a point of faith, faith in the truth that Jesus is the promised one sent of God.
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BJRumph:
Contrast this with Mary’s virginal conception of Christ. Such a belief in Mary is a theological requirement due to its identifying, through fulfillment of prophesy, that Jesus is indeed the Christ. Rejecting this point would be to deny that Jesus was the Chrsit, and therefore one’s Creedal faith is undermined by a rejection of the incarnation of God, which necessarily has bearing on your Faith in who and what God is, the most basic and fundamental element of a faith in God.
It is more important that Mary be immaculately conceived because of the sharing of the flesh, than that John be immaculately conceived. But it is important that they both be sinless.
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BJRumph:
Neither the IC or Assumption has a theological element necessary to it character to have this impact on holding a correct faith.
Well, the Church has judged it to be necessary, so we don’t need to worry about it anymore. It is a matter of faith, and not something that can be “proved” by reason, though it doesn’t go counter to reason.
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BJRumph:
The sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to establish a belief in the generosity and mercy of God, …
You are mistaken. Christ did not need to suffer at all in order to establish belief in God’s generosity. In fact, He preached the gospel before He suffered. What we are called to believe is that Jesus is the Son of God, sent by the Father to reconcile the world to Himself. He establishes this by fulfilling the scriptures, which includes dying and rising again. But each thing He fulfills is important. The sacrifice on the cross is the high point of our redemption. His teaching, curing, rebuking, delivering, and feeding show His role as Prophet and Shepherd. His establishing the Church shows His role as King and Shepherd and Priest. I could go on.

He makes His Kingdom as it pleases Him. He wanted His precursor to be the greatest of the Prophets, and that makes sense. He wanted His mother to be blessed among all women. And that makes sense. That He made them sinless etc., adds to His renown and glory. Afterall, we are going to be part of this Kingdom forever.

But perhaps your point is that you don’t see why we have to believe that now, as opposed to later…

(continued)
 
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BJRumph:
Perhaps I am expecting too much of them in holding them, as “Dogma” to being on par in importance with the Creedal Dogmas that are truly universally held, rather than suborning them to some lesser level. Even still, as a principle, they should have some theological character inherent within them, as doctrines, in order to be eligible to be established as Dogma; I just cannot find it.
How about for the preservation of the Faith? Many things cannot be described in few or many words. Just look at the different sects who use the Bible yet are locked into a false understanding of the Gospel. Things of faith that seem obvious to those practising it are not obvious to those who have never heard it. It helps to get more data points plotted to understand what shape it takes. Three points are sufficient to make a circle, but to the unlearned, it looks like it should be a triangle. Every Catholic dogma is a definitive point of the Faith, and the more we have the better idea we will have of what the eternal Faith really looks like. Every now and then, the Church will make some teaching into a dogma, meaning it is unchangeable. This helps those who have humble trust in the authority of the Church but who have no obvious culture of faith to otherwise recognize it as a distinguishing factor of the faith.

hurst
 
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freesoulhope:
I dont like to face issues like this because i lack the undestading, and it feeds on my doubts and insercruity when it comes to being a catholic. i feel that if sombody asks me this qeustion i have to have a reasonable answer to back it up. i have been confronted with the issue about the sinless mary. I
you have heard this suggestion before but it bears repeating. you will enjoy using this site a lot more and get a lot more benefit from it if you first do your homework on the CA homepage with the library articles, tracts, and This Rock archives on basic topics such as Saints, Mary, Salvation, etc. Then come here to discuss or enlarge on specific questions.

by all means undertake this self-study before you even think of setting up an apologetics web-site.
 
Dear freesoulhope - how are you? You got an awful lot thrown at you for asking a legitimate question. Did you have a chance to read the info in the Libary section about Mary? What did you think?
 
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x4us:
Dear freesoulhope - how are you? You got an awful lot thrown at you for asking a legitimate question. Did you have a chance to read the info in the Libary section about Mary? What did you think?
The advice that various posters are giving him is for his own good. He joined the forums only 3 days ago and has started 32 threads with lots of questions most of which could have been answered by doing research and reading beforehand.
 
I concur with most of what has been offered in the posts above and especially the suggestion that you make use of the C A Ma(name removed by moderator)age Library before posting a gazillion questions all over the place on the forums. Not that any of us mind answering you, but that it’s faster to get very concise answers when there are articles on your specific topics already there.

I also would suggest that you avail yourself of this excellent FREE course http://www.amm.org/chss/images/chss9.gif from The Catholic Home Study Service. Having completed all that they offer I can assure you that they are some of the finest Catholic materials around.

One reason that I personally believe that the Blessed Virgin was pre-emptively preserved from sin is the comparison to the purity and holiness of the Ark of the Covenant to Mary as the ark of the New Covenant. The first was so holy that to touch it without being a consecrated priest was to die, and held only tablets of stone. How much more would the precious human Ark that was to carry and nurture the Divine New Covenant of Christ Himself?

To me, the Blessed Virgin was the first Christian, (St. Joseph being the second), and when one considers the holiness of those saints who live out their “personal relationship with Jesus” ( :rolleyes: ) I can only imagine what the lives of the two people who actually lived that relationship out with Our Lord from His birth, and in the case of Our Lady, to the cross and the resurrection as well.

I believe that there are a lot of specifics that we do not know from the Word of God verbatim, but I also believe that that is one reason that God has blessed us with what is (arguably) called “common sense” so that we can think things like this through.

None of the “all have sinned” type passages of the Bible are negated by my beliefs, they are simply dealt with uniquely because one has to realize that Mary existed right in the very cusp of both the Old and New Testaments, and, second only to Christ Himself is arguably the most unique person in the history of mankind, considering the events that overtook her and her place in them.

One of the most critical things that I think one has to remember is that in Revelation 13:8 St. John refers to Our Lord as “the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.”, and as such I think that offers us some insight in the way in which God has applied the saving graces of Christ to Our Lady.

Just some things to think about.
Pax tecum,
 
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