Mary's assumption into Heaven and the Rapture

[Mintaka]

Um, guys? Remember the Bosom of Abraham?

You know, the thing that’s part of Sheol, but not a place of punishment?

We heard about it from some guy named Jesus Christ, Who is the Trustworthy Witness?

So that’s one place that Enoch and Elijah could have been bodily.

There’s also the idea that being taken up to Heaven is not at all the same as ascending to Heaven, which some have theorized. Moses is also supposed to have had his body taken up to heaven by St. Michael, after a tussle with the Devil. (St. Jude tells us about that one.)

Also, given God’s control of time, He could easily have plucked His people out of time and brought them into Heaven after Jesus’ Resurrection. Wouldn’t have prevented Him from sending Elijah and Moses back to the Transfiguration afterwards, either.

I don’t really see that it matters much to us either way, since it’s God’s business what He does with specific persons among His servants. If my name were Enoch, Elijah, or Moses, I would know for sure. Since it isn’t, I don’t have to know.

 

[PRmerger]

We read in John 3:13: “No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.”

Ah, yes.

I should have phrased my question differently: it is Catholic teaching that Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven without their bodies?

 

[Good_Fella]

While I mostly agree with what you are saying, I would question your statement: “The Jews believed Elijah was spared death and taken bodily into heaven.”

First of all, Heaven, as we know it today, is a Christian concept derived directly from Jesus Christ, who announced the Kingdom of Heaven. To Second Temple Jews, the afterlife was a field of speculation (hence the Saducees and Pharisees animosity.) However the Resurrection of the Body was believed by the Pharisaical Jews. But in the meantime, even in Our Lord’s parables, we hear of the Bosom of Abraham, not Christian Heaven. So it seems doubtful to me, that Elijah was believed to have been taken bodily there by Second Temple Jews. However, he was seemingly taken somewhere. But again, that is speculation, as to whether it was just another place here on earth, or some other unknown place.

What you say is correct, but I didn’t mean each and every Jew or religious segment, which I should have clarified. It appears that in the period after the destruction of the First Temple there were Jews who must have believed that the soul returns to God while the corpse remains in the earth. “The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:17). Enoch and Elijah were exceptions to the rule. We read in the OT that they did not experience death. We don’t know where Enoch went, but we read in Genesis 5:24 that “God took him” from the earth (Sirach 44:16, 44:19). In 2 Kings 2:11 and 1 Maccabees 2:58, we read that Elijah “went to heaven” and “was taken into heaven.” The Hebrew and Greek words for ‘heaven’ are shamayim and ouranos which indicate the transcendent realm where God is and the souls of the blessed enjoy oneness with Him. Thus some Jews, at least, may have believed that Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven bodily, whereas all the other righteous people existed there only in spirit. Anyway, all we can do is speculate. One thing is sure, only Jesus and Mary gloriously exist body and soul in heaven. Jesus is the first fruit of the resurrection.

PAX

:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

Ah, yes.

I should have phrased my question differently: it is Catholic teaching that Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven without their bodies?

There is no formal definitive teaching on what happened to Enoch and Elijah. Pope St. John Paul ll merely opined that they escaped death and were taken into heaven to be with God, but he did not go so far as to equate what happened to them with what happened to Mary. Some Church Fathers and Doctors believed that they bodily exist in a transcendent terrestrial paradise short of the fullness of heaven and the Beatific Vision. These are nothing but fallible theological opinions.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[PRmerger]

There is no formal definitive teaching on what happened to Enoch and Elijah. Pope St. John Paul ll merely opined that they escaped death and were taken into heaven to be with God, but he did not go so far as to equate what happened to them with what happened to Mary. Some Church Fathers and Doctors believed that they bodily exist in a transcendent terrestrial paradise short of the fullness of heaven and the Beatific Vision. These are nothing but fallible theological opinions.

PAX
:heaven:

Then, Ambrose, could you please 'splain what you meant here:

1. Elijah and Enoch did NOT ascend to the Kingdom of Heaven in their bodies, the way the BVM did. It is unbiblical and contrary to Catholic Church dogma regarding original sin and Redemption.

Specifically, what part about Elijah and Enoch ascending into the Kingdom of Heaven in their bodies the way the BVM did is unbiblical and contrary to Church dogma?

 

[Good_Fella]

A blessed Memorial of the Immaculate Heart of Mary to all!