Mary's Assumption

[JP_Marat]

If you listen to Jesus, you would listen to the Church He established and sent the Holy Spirit to protect.

RESPONSE:

Actually, Jesus never founded a Church. He expected to return within that generations’ lifetime. When he didn’t, and the Jerusalem community of his original followers was crushed, it was Paul who founded a church.

 

[JP_Marat]

According to who? You?
You don’t actually expect anyone here to think that you are a better judge of what is part of the deposit of faith than Holy Mother Church is, do you?

The Successor of Peter, in his authority speaking from the Chair of Peter, has said it is so. It is so.

RESPONSE:

And a supposed Successor of Peter told us we could buy indulgences to bypass purgatory. Can we still do that?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Its a matter of history.

Do I need the Bible to tell me George Washington was the first American President? No, because its a matter of history.

History tells us Peter was in Rome. Very simple

The Bible gives an indication Peter was in Rome; so what is the point? It doesn’t make him a pope does it? Paul, Luke and Mark were also in Rome, so what - are they popes as well? Why not? What is a pope anyway and how does that effect my own salvation and justification before God?

 

[JP_Marat]

Would it also make sense to listen to those who listened personally to the Apostles?

Otherwise, you are relying on the words of mere Protestant men and not of the leaders of the Church that Jesus founded upon Peter the rock.

Right? :yup:

And since I quoted from 1 Peter to support the fact that Peter was in Rome, it is obvious that I have listened to the Word of God.

Apparently, you were not listening to me.

RESPONSE:

I apparently didn’t see your original message. But you must be refering to that old Bablyon as a code word for Rome fiction.

Let’s take a look at that.

"The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son. "

Problems with this.

(1) From the New American Bible introduction to Peter 1 “Yet it is **unlikely that Peter **addressed a letter to the Gentile churches of Asia Minor while Paul was still alive.”

(2) The use of the term Babylon to refer to either Rome or Jerusalem comes from Revelation written long after Peter’s death.

(3) Is it seriously to be believed that using a “code word” while being in Rome fooled the Roman army?

(4) The logical conclusion is that if Peter actually wrote this, he was in fact in Babylon on the Euphrates, a major Jewish center, where one would expect the Apostles to the Circumcised to be, not Rome a Gentile city. That would have been left to Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

From a Jewish history Website:

aish.com/jl/h/48949881.html

"While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life.

Seventy years later, when the Babylonians fell to the Persians and the Jews were permitted to return, only a small number did. Of what was probably a million Jews living in the Persian Empire, only 42,000 went back, meaning that the vast majority stayed in Babylon under Persia domination.

During the** Second Temple period, up until its destruction in 70 CE**, the** Jewish community in Babylon** – far from the eye of the storm that raged in the Land of Israel – continued to flourish.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

If you listen to Jesus, you would listen to the Church He established and sent the Holy Spirit to protect.

Show me in Scripture where Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to an institution and not each believer, then I will convert.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

RESPONSE:

And a supposed Successor of Peter told us we could buy indulgences to bypass purgatory. Can we still do that?

There were people that Paul and Peter commissioned to preach that turned into complete disappointments. Those that were charged to appoint others were disrupting what the apostles had established; look at the Corinthians, the Galatians and the Revelations chapters 2 & 3 and see how many of those churches Jesus threatened still exist. I stick with what i know to be true which is the Protestant Bible and stay away from all else on matters of history unless it accords with Scripture.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Would it also make sense to listen to those who listened personally to the Apostles?

Otherwise, you are relying on the words of mere Protestant men and not of the leaders of the Church that Jesus founded upon Peter the rock.

Right? :yup:

And since I quoted from 1 Peter to support the fact that Peter was in Rome, it is obvious that I have listened to the Word of God.

Apparently, you were not listening to me.

Your distaste for Protestants is very apparent, but your premise is false; since we know that men were assigned to preach the gospel that turned their backs on the gospel; therefore just because an apostle may have spoken directly to someone does not mean we should rely on what they said as being “divine” as you seem to imply. Judas Iscariot was the the most famous of these.

 

[adrift]

RESPONSE:

So if a lot of people want a dogma proclaimed, that’s what the pope does? As he did in this case.

Until about 1700 the universal ordinary magisterium claimed that the sun revolved around the earth and the earth didn’t move because this was evidenced by scripture. Does that make it so? Until 1964, the universal ordinary magisterium taught that slave ownership was morally licit via scripture and the natural law. Does that make it so? Until 1750 loaning anything for interest was a sin requiring restitution. Does that make it so? Etc.

provide some evidence of contemporary writings objecting to the “pious” novelty. <<
What pious novelty would that be?

This is off topic. Start another thread and I will be happy to discuss how you twisted the above.

 

[adrift]

RESPONSE:

Actually, Jesus never founded a Church. He expected to return within that generations’ lifetime. When he didn’t, and the Jerusalem community of his original followers was crushed, it was Paul who founded a church.

off Topic start another thread. Yes I know I answered an off topic remark.

 

[adrift]

RESPONSE:

And a supposed Successor of Peter told us we could buy indulgences to bypass purgatory. Can we still do that?

Off topic and twisting of history. There is already threads on this.

 

[adrift]

The Bible gives an indication Peter was in Rome; so what is the point? It doesn’t make him a pope does it? Paul, Luke and Mark were also in Rome, so what - are they popes as well? Why not? What is a pope anyway and how does that effect my own salvation and justification before God?

Off topic start another thread.

 

[adrift]

Show me in Scripture where Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to an institution and not each believer, then I will convert.

Off topic do a search or start another thread.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

The Bible gives an indication Peter was in Rome; so what is the point? It doesn’t make him a pope does it?..

Yes, it does. While he was in Rome, he was the Bishop (Greek “overseer”) of Rome. And since he died there, he died being the Bishop of Rome.

In English, we call the Bishops of Rome “Pope”. So, he was Pope.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Yes, it does. While he was in Rome, he was the Bishop (Greek “overseer”) of Rome. And since he died there, he died being the Bishop of Rome.

In English, we call the Bishops of Rome “Pope”. So, he was Pope.

Was Paul his co-bishop?

 

[adrift]

Was Paul his co-bishop?

This is an interesting question. Paul as far as I know was never a bishop.

 

[Rightlydivide]

This is an interesting question. Paul as far as I know was never a bishop.

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

1. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles,

 

[adrift]

Rightlydivide:
What are you quoting?

Paul is counted as an apostle. He calls himself an apostle. He is considered the apostle to the gentiles but that is not the same as a bishop. Apostle means one sent on a mission. We usually associate this with the 12 Jesus chose.
according to the Catholic Encyclopedia

Bishop is the title of an ecclesiastical dignitary who possesses the fullness of the priesthood to rule a diocese as its chief pastor, in due submission to the primacy of the pope.

I don’t think that Paul ever held the position of a bishop. Apostle-yes bishop no.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Yes, it does. While he was in Rome, he was the Bishop (Greek “overseer”) of Rome. And since he died there, he died being the Bishop of Rome.

In English, we call the Bishops of Rome “Pope”. So, he was Pope.

The bible doesn’t say that Peter was bishop of Rome, so that information must come from man. He was actually outside of Rome when He died according to men, the Bible does not say explicitly.

Oh Adrift, sorry - off topic - I’ll respond to those that responded to me, then I will leave, so as not to be “off topic”

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Bible gives an indication Peter was in Rome; so what is the point? It doesn’t make him a pope does it? Paul, Luke and Mark were also in Rome, so what - are they popes as well? Why not? What is a pope anyway and how does that effect my own salvation and justification before God?

It’s simple, really.

1. To be saved it is necessary to be a Christian.
2. To be a Christian it is necessary to be a member of Christ’s Church.
3. To be a member of Christ’s Church it is necessary to be a member of the Catholic Church.
4. To be a member of the Catholic Church it is necessary to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
5. Therefore, it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

That’s how it affects your salvation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Show me in Scripture where Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to an institution and not each believer, then I will convert.

Wow. This is easy.

John 20:19-23
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1. The doors were locked.
2. Only the eleven were present.
3. Jesus commissioned the eleven and gave them the same authority that the Father had given Him. This authority was not conveyed to others in the Book of Acts.
4. Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them them the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not breath on the other people who received the Spirit in the Book of Acts. This sending of the Spirit was different.
5. The Apostles were the leaders of the Church which later became known as the Catholic Church.

One other minor point…we know that only the eleven were present (without Mary and the other women) because Jesus told them to forgive sins. Only priests can forgive sins and only men can be priests.

See you at mass this Sunday?