Mary's Assumption

[Gorgias]

That doesn’t remove the nature of the verse that specifically that all men are appointed once to die.

Actually, you’re inserting the language of “all” men here – the Greek simply says τοῖς ἀνθρώποις (“to humans”). Just as we say that the reference in Romans 3 (“all have sinned”) does not apply to Mary, it is likewise unreasonable to assert that the Hebrews 9:27 reference must be imposed onto Mary.

Otherwise it would read “Just as Christ was appointed once to die”. It doesn’t.

No, it doesn’t say that – because Paul doesn’t want to say that this “nature” wasn’t unique to Jesus, but rather, part of his human nature; his argument here is that the analogy of human life applies in a sense to Jesus. Of course, this is just used loosely – if you require that all men must die and be judged, don’t you have to require that Jesus (who is fully human) must die and be judged?

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings Gorgias,

I do not feel like posting my reply to you on this because 1) it would seem that you are not open to anything that is in conflict with your position.

Bmullins has demonstrated that he understands where I am coming from.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Gorgias]

Greetings Gorgias,

I do not feel like posting my reply to you on this because 1) it would seem that you are not open to anything that is in conflict with your position.

No… I just don’t feel that you’ve demonstrated that it’s valid to use the Hebrews quote in order to refer to Mary. I’ve shown that Mary is a special case, such that, as Catholics, we don’t necessarily say that Scriptural uses of “all” apply to her without exception.

When you attempted to substantiate your claim that Mary died, you relied on the Fathers. I’m simply asking that, if you feel it’s reasonable to use that Scripture in the way that you do, that you provide a citation from the Fathers backing up your case.

Bmullins has demonstrated that he understands where I am coming from.

In general on this question, but not with respect to your use of Hebrews 9:27. In fact, when I referenced his participation in this, he hastily distanced himself from it, saying that he had simply provided the Scriptural citation to the quote you referenced.

I think that, if you want to use the Scripture in the way that you are using it, you should be willing to substantiate your assertion. “I don’t feel like it” and “someone else understands what I said” don’t really substantiate your assertion…

 

[bmullins]

Actually, you’re inserting the language of “all” men here – the Greek simply says τοῖς ἀνθρώποις (“to humans”). Just as we say that the reference in Romans 3 (“all have sinned”) does not apply to Mary, it is likewise unreasonable to assert that the Hebrews 9:27 reference must be imposed onto Mary.

Humans… men… splitting straws. No one is saying it must be imposed onto Mary, just that it’s logical that it could be applied to Mary.

Peace be with you Gorgias.

I didn’t distance myself from his application of the scripture, I pointed out that you were saying I was doing something when I clearly had done no such thing. I think his application could be viable, but not necessarily. It is only viable if Mary died before being assumed (which I personally believe she did.) But we don’t know for sure. So we’ll find out in the life after this one.

 

[Ubenedictus]

No… I just don’t feel that you’ve demonstrated that it’s valid to use the Hebrews quote in order to refer to Mary. I’ve shown that Mary is a special case, such that, as Catholics, we don’t necessarily say that Scriptural uses of “all” apply to her without exception.

When you attempted to substantiate your claim that Mary died, you relied on the Fathers. I’m simply asking that, if you feel it’s reasonable to use that Scripture in the way that you do, that you provide a citation from the Fathers backing up your case.

In general on this question, but not with respect to your use of Hebrews 9:27. In fact, when I referenced his participation in this, he hastily distanced himself from it, saying that he had simply provided the Scriptural citation to the quote you referenced.

I think that, if you want to use the Scripture in the way that you are using it, you should be willing to substantiate your assertion. “I don’t feel like it” and “someone else understands what I said” don’t really substantiate your assertion…

i think i get your point. Marys’ death cannot be proven explicitly from scripture, it easier using the writtings of the church fathers. I do believe she died in imitation of her son but i dont think it is impossible she was assumed without temporal death. I recommend you look the fathers position.
Ubenedictus

 

[Nate13]

Actually, you’re inserting the language of “all” men here – the Greek simply says τοῖς ἀνθρώποις (“to humans”). Just as we say that the reference in Romans 3 (“all have sinned”) does not apply to Mary, it is likewise unreasonable to assert that the Hebrews 9:27 reference must be imposed onto Mary.

I have to agree. I do not believe Hebrews 9:27 adds anything to the debate. I think it could actually do harm to the significance of Early Church Father’s comments if they were based on that verse in any significant way.

 

[Gorgias]

Humans… men… splitting straws. No one is saying it must be imposed onto Mary, just that it’s logical that it could be applied to Mary.

Right – that’s my perspective. (Oh – and the ‘human’ thing is just so that no one might think that my claim was that it didn’t fit Mary because the word meant “male person”.) It appeared to me that Anathema was saying that it was necessarily the case that it applies to Mary, though.

I didn’t distance myself from his application of the scripture, I pointed out that you were saying I was doing something when I clearly had done no such thing.

OK… sorry 'bout that. When you objected, it seemed to me that you were distancing yourself from the assertion. Thanks for keeping me on my toes…