Mary's assumption

[Blue_Horizon]

Please, I would certainly appreciate it if you DIDN’T put words in my mouth. You’ve got it all wrong. The Church has NEVER officially said that Mary did die. The Church doesn’t teach that because to put it simply, the Church just doesn’t know for sure what took place at the moment of her Assumption. God Bless, Memaw

What is your definition of “officially” in the Catholic Church Memaw?

What is your definition of a “teaching” in the Catholic Church?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

If the “judgments” you make are on something I have said, that would be different. You can disagree with me all you want! I have NEVER said that I consider “only” dogmatic declarations. You are assuming again. Why does it bother you so if I don’t believe it was necessary for Mary to die as we know it, separation of body and soul, before she was Assumed into Heaven. Only God knows and HE didn’t see fit to reveal that to us at the time of the Infallible Dogma of the Assumption. HE could have, you know, if it would have been HIS Will. Like I said before, I will wait for the Church. Guess you’ll just have to “tolerate” my thoughts. God Bless, Memaw

Memaw the reason why we keep attempting to politely engage you is because of your mistaken understanding that the death of Mary is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.

You have indicated this many times, the latest one being “The Church has NEVER officially said that Mary did die. The Church doesn’t [officially] teach that…”

Yes, you have newly added the word “officially” to your view but it doesn’t make much of a difference.

You appear to hold the view that the only type of “official” Church teaching is a Dogmatic definition. Ambrose and I for very good reasons hold that you are mistaken in this somewhat all-or-nothing understanding of “official”.

 

[adrift]

Memaw the reason why we keep attempting to politely engage you is because of your mistaken understanding that the death of Mary is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.

You have indicated this many times, the latest one being “The Church has NEVER officially said that Mary did die. The Church doesn’t [officially] teach that…”

Yes, you have newly added the word “officially” to your view but it doesn’t make much of a difference.

You appear to hold the view that the only type of “official” Church teaching is a Dogmatic definition. Ambrose and I for very good reasons hold that you are mistaken in this somewhat all-or-nothing understanding of “official”.

Does the Catechism state that she died?

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son’s Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

The Church has used the phrase “when the course of her earthly life was completed” is deliberate as not to make it official teaching either way.
My personal belief is in line with what the Church teaches as is others who have posted on both sides. You are free to believe that she died or she didn’t. It is neither a dogma or a teaching either way.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

adrift:

The Church has used the phrase “when the course of her earthly life was completed” is deliberate as not to make it official teaching either way.
My personal belief is in line with what the Church teaches as is others who have posted on both sides. You are free to believe that she died or she didn’t. It is neither a dogma or a teaching either way.

Sadly, you are cherry picking quotes and building an entire platform of “church teaching” around it. Read the entire document of Munificentissimus Deus. It speaks often of the death of the Virgin Mary. It summarizes ancient Church teaching on her death and Assumption. How the Divine Liturgy and early Popes taught this truth.

You ARE free to believe that she died or didn’t right now. However, you are incorrect to say that the Church has not always taught that the Virgin Mary died.

So it IS a Church teaching, although it is NOT a dogma. You are free to believe as you wish. But IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE with the mind of the Church, then you will believe that she died before her Assumption.

Apparently there are Catholics (and very many at that) who believe the Church only teaches what is has dogmatically declared. But that’s not true. The Church dogmatically declares only what was ALWAYS TAUGHT, but due to the infidelity of the age, it became necessary to formally declare it as a dogmatic definition.

The Church NEVER dogmatically declares something that was never taught, NEVER!

 

[Memaw]

Sadly, you are cherry picking quotes and building an entire platform of “church teaching” around it. Read the entire document of Munificentissimus Deus. It speaks often of the death of the Virgin Mary. It summarizes ancient Church teaching on her death and Assumption. How the Divine Liturgy and early Popes taught this truth.

You ARE free to believe that she died or didn’t right now. However, you are incorrect to say that the Church has not always taught that the Virgin Mary died.

So it IS a Church teaching, although it is NOT a dogma. You are free to believe as you wish. But IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE with the mind of the Church, then you will believe that she died before her Assumption.

Apparently there are Catholics (and very many at that) who believe the Church only teaches what is has dogmatically declared. But that’s not true. The Church dogmatically declares only what was ALWAYS TAUGHT, but due to the infidelity of the age, it became necessary to formally declare it as a dogmatic definition.

The Church NEVER dogmatically declares something that was never taught, NEVER!

Strange, you say we are “free” to believe either way and yet you insist on telling us we are wrong in following what the Church “”"“OFFICIALLY”""" teaches. Can’t have it both ways. God Bless, Memaw

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Strange, you say we are “free” to believe either way and yet you insist on telling us we are wrong in following what the Church “”"“OFFICIALLY”""" teaches. Can’t have it both ways. God Bless, Memaw

Please show me where the Church OFFICIALLY teaches that the Virgin Mary NEVER died.

 

[Memaw]

Please show me where the Church OFFICIALLY teaches that the Virgin Mary NEVER died.

If the Dogma of the Assumption isn’t “official” enough, I don’t know what to tell you. Please show me where the Church “officially” teaches she died. Don’t you think we’ve gone on far enough with this??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I didn’t think the Church officially taught either one, that she died or that she didn’t die. I just thought the Church officially taught that she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, and I do believe that. Personally, I believe she died and then was assumed, but I’m not going to try to force that belief on anyone else.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I didn’t think the Church officially taught either one, that she died or that she didn’t die. I just thought the Church officially taught that she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, and I do believe that. Personally, I believe she died and then was assumed, but I’m not going to try to force that belief on anyone else.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I agree Lily. But the DISTINCTION we are arguing is whether the Church can teach something even though it is NOT dogmatically declared.

So, for example, if you read Munificentissimus Deus in its entirety, you will see that it summarizes the Church’s long held belief in not only the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, but in her death as well. It was so firmly believed for so many ages, that it wasn’t even questioned until recent times.

But St. Pope John Paul II has stated plainly and clearly exactly how we are to understand the phrase in Munificentissimus Deus “having completed the course of her earthly life”

IOW, for all intents and purposes the Church DOES teach OFFICIALLY that the Virgin Mary DID Die.

Because there is not a forceful statement to the effect that the Virgin Mary died, and because a Euphemism for death is used instead, many have incorrectly assumed that the Church is being INTENTIONALLY vague, either because the Church doesn’t know or because it is somehow up for grabs.

But Saint Pope John Paul II HAS ASSURED US, that that is NOT the case at all. IOW, the Blessed Pope JPII says that the Dogmatic definition on the Assumption did not want to be overburdened with other issues AT THAT TIME.

But the adversaries are quick to jump on the fact that there is NOT a dogmatic definition on the death of the Virgin Mary, and therefore the Church DOES NOT teach us she died, when IN FACT, the Church HAS ALWAYS taught that the Virgin Mary died.

Furthermore, these same adversaries, are not only willing to brush off the words of our own Holy Saint and Pope, and the text of Munificentissimus Deus, but they likewise brush off the everlasting teaching of the entire Eastern Church as well!!

I have often said that IF they want to know the mind of the Church, (as expressed in Munificentissimus Deus) then they will believe that the Virgin Mary did die.

I have not said that they MUST believe it. It is their choice, because it is not currently De Fide, like a dogmatic definition.

 

[Memaw]

I agree Lily. But the DISTINCTION we are arguing is whether the Church can teach something even though it is NOT dogmatically declared.

So, for example, if you read Munificentissimus Deus in its entirety, you will see that it summarizes the Church’s long held belief in not only the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, but in her death as well. It was so firmly believed for so many ages, that it wasn’t even questioned until recent times.

But St. Pope John Paul II has stated plainly and clearly exactly how we are to understand the phrase in Munificentissimus Deus “having completed the course of her earthly life”

IOW, for all intents and purposes the Church DOES teach OFFICIALLY that the Virgin Mary DID Die.

Because there is not a forceful statement to the effect that the Virgin Mary died, and because a Euphemism for death is used instead, many have incorrectly assumed that the Church is being INTENTIONALLY vague, either because the Church doesn’t know or because it is somehow up for grabs.

But Saint Pope John Paul II HAS ASSURED US, that that is NOT the case at all. IOW, the Blessed Pope JPII says that the Dogmatic definition on the Assumption did not want to be overburdened with other issues AT THAT TIME.

But the adversaries are quick to jump on the fact that there is NOT a dogmatic definition on the death of the Virgin Mary, and therefore the Church DOES NOT teach us she died, when IN FACT, the Church HAS ALWAYS taught that the Virgin Mary died.

Furthermore, these same adversaries, are not only willing to brush off the words of our own Holy Saint and Pope, and the text of Munificentissimus Deus, but they likewise brush off the everlasting teaching of the entire Eastern Church as well!!

I have often said that IF they want to know the mind of the Church, (as expressed in Munificentissimus Deus) then they will believe that the Virgin Mary did die.

I have not said that they MUST believe it. It is their choice, because it is not currently De Fide, like a dogmatic definition.

That’s your opinion, I never once said that. You do have a way of putting words in my mouth. I DID say that if the Church wanted to define it infallibly, she could have done so when she, (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I might add) defined the dogma of Assumption. BUT the Church did NOT do that. I go with the Church. I AM with the mind of the Church!! I am NOT brushing off anything! You make rude claims, where do you find that in Church teaching??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[francisca]

I have difficulty in reconciling the doctrine “Mary is free from original sin since conception and thus sinless throughout her life” (Immaculate Conception),

and the fact that death is only for sinners.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I have difficulty in reconciling the doctrine “Mary is free from original sin since conception and thus sinless throughout her life” (Immaculate Conception),

and the fact that death is only for sinners.

Do you believe Jesus was a sinner?

 

[Memaw]

Do you believe Jesus was a sinner?

How silly a question. If you don’t know the difference between Jesus and us sinners, I sure don’t know what to tell you!!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Does the Catechism state that she died?

The Church has used the phrase “when the course of her earthly life was completed” is deliberate as not to make it official teaching either way.
My personal belief is in line with what the Church teaches as is others who have posted on both sides. You are free to believe that she died or she didn’t. It is neither a dogma or a teaching either way.

Adrift I don’t think you are quite up to speed on the discussion with Memaw .

 

[francisca]

Do you believe Jesus was a sinner?

Jesus died bearing our sins.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

If the Dogma of the Assumption isn’t “official” enough, I don’t know what to tell you. Please show me where the Church “officially” teaches she died. Don’t you think we’ve gone on far enough with this??? God Bless, Memaw

The dogma does not Teach Mary did not die Memaw.

I am still interested to hear your understanding of what constitutes official Church teaching - and why you seem to think Encyclicals do not qualify?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I have difficulty in reconciling the doctrine “Mary is free from original sin since conception and thus sinless throughout her life” (Immaculate Conception),

and the fact that death is only for sinners.

Death is not only for sinners Francisca.
Jesus is our prime example of that.
His mother is not more privileged than he.

Scripture never stated that things other than sin could not bring about
death did it?

Solidarity with fallen humanity is why the Father wills those he made innocent suffer and die. Somehow it is the only way sinners may be reconciled back to God.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

That’s your opinion, I never once said that. You do have a way of putting words in my mouth. I DID say that if the Church wanted to define it infallibly, she could have done so when she, (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I might add) defined the dogma of Assumption. BUT the Church did NOT do that. I go with the Church. I AM with the mind of the Church!! I am NOT brushing off anything! You make rude claims, where do you find that in Church teaching??? God Bless, Memaw

Your logic is still flawed due to your underlying mistaken assumption Memaw.
We agree that Mary’s death was not mentioned in the brief formal and dogmatic phrase used in the Encyclical to define Mary’s rising to heaven body and soul. Neither was her alleged freedom from death ever asserted there either.

So at a dogmatic level nothing was said whether body and soul were separated or joined before she Rose.

However, the rest of the Encyclical, which certainly is official also, clearly teaches her body and soul were separate, that is, she died.
As tradition has always taught from year dot in its iconography, liturgy and the teachings of the Pope’s.

Why do you not see this as also official - though not binding yet?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Jesus died bearing our sins.

Jesus died bearing the wounds of our sins; he died as sinless as he always was. There is a great difference.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I agree Lily. But the DISTINCTION we are arguing is whether the Church can teach something even though it is NOT dogmatically declared.

So, for example, if you read Munificentissimus Deus in its entirety, you will see that it summarizes the Church’s long held belief in not only the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, but in her death as well. It was so firmly believed for so many ages, that it wasn’t even questioned until recent times.

But St. Pope John Paul II has stated plainly and clearly exactly how we are to understand the phrase in Munificentissimus Deus “having completed the course of her earthly life”

IOW, for all intents and purposes the Church DOES teach OFFICIALLY that the Virgin Mary DID Die.

Because there is not a forceful statement to the effect that the Virgin Mary died, and because a Euphemism for death is used instead, many have incorrectly assumed that the Church is being INTENTIONALLY vague, either because the Church doesn’t know or because it is somehow up for grabs.

But Saint Pope John Paul II HAS ASSURED US, that that is NOT the case at all. IOW, the Blessed Pope JPII says that the Dogmatic definition on the Assumption did not want to be overburdened with other issues AT THAT TIME.

But the adversaries are quick to jump on the fact that there is NOT a dogmatic definition on the death of the Virgin Mary, and therefore the Church DOES NOT teach us she died, when IN FACT, the Church HAS ALWAYS taught that the Virgin Mary died.

Furthermore, these same adversaries, are not only willing to brush off the words of our own Holy Saint and Pope, and the text of Munificentissimus Deus, but they likewise brush off the everlasting teaching of the entire Eastern Church as well!!

I have often said that IF they want to know the mind of the Church, (as expressed in Munificentissimus Deus) then they will believe that the Virgin Mary did die.

I have not said that they MUST believe it. It is their choice, because it is not currently De Fide, like a dogmatic definition.

Thank you for writing this. I appreciate the time you took with it. Of course I agree with everything you wrote, and I, too, believe the Virgin Mary died. I also believe that the Church teaches much that is not dogma. (If she didn’t, she wouldn’t be teaching nearly as much.)

I was actually trying to be diplomatic and not offend posters who do not believe she died, but that didn’t seem to work out for me. You said it a lot better than I would have anyway. I’m glad to have your interpretation and explanation. Again, thank you.