Mary's Assumption

[Kmon23]

He will come to judge the living and the dead.
CCC 1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/images/8/8b/Hagia_Sophia_Christ.jpg

Beautiful icon

 

[RyanBlack]

She didn’t require “Judgment” She was Immaculate from Conception to Assumption. What else are we going to throw at Our Blessed Mother?? Some already label her as an unwed Mother, which she WASN’T. God Bless, Memaw

But how in the world can you possibly say that she didn’t require judgment? There’s no infallible dogma that proclaims that the Theotokos didn’t undergo a particular judgment, is there? Since there’s no infallible teaching that she wasn’t judged , surely she was, along with everyone else, as the Catechism teaches.

 

[Memaw]

I get the impression that you are saying that calling her an unwed mother is such a wrong thing. This is very problematic since this is some of the language/imagery us Orthodox use in our hymns, but then **so would Eastern Catholics. **

Read Matt, 18-22. Joseph was already her husband or he wouldn’t have had the authority to “send her away quietly”. And the Angel said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary YOUR WIFE, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. So it is a “wrong thing” to call her unwed!! One must get familiar with the customs of those days ! God bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

But how in the world can you possibly say that she didn’t require judgment? There’s no infallible dogma that proclaims that the Theotokos didn’t undergo a particular judgment, is there? Since there’s no infallible teaching that she wasn’t judged , surely she was, along with everyone else, as the Catechism teaches.

I don’t believe there is any teaching of Mary needing a judgment at all, I’ve never read that in the CCC. Point it out to me please!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Mystrx]

Re: non-Catholic religions, the Eastern Orthodox also believe in the assumption. They tend to call it the dormition, and they tend to believe she died and was resurrected before being taken into heaven. Catholics are also allowed to believe that, but in the Catholic Church it is also common to believe that she did not die. Either belief is currently permitted as long as we believe she was taken body and soul into heaven.

Re: biblical support, here are a few of the basic passages that support Mary’s assumption:

Revelation 12:1 “And a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun.” Verse 5: “She brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.”

Psalms 45:9-10 “On your right stands the queen in gold of Ophir.” – This Psalm is a prophecy of Jesus according to Hebrews 1:8-9. And it says there will be a woman beside Him who will sit at His right hand.

“The New Eve” The early Christians compared Jesus to Adam and Mary to Eve because Adam and Eve were part of our fall while Jesus and Mary were part of our redemption. They were not subject to death because they were prepared by God to destroy death along with the sin of Adam and Eve which we inherit. Also, Adam and Eve would not have been subject to death if they had not disobeyed God. Jesus and Mary took the place of Adam and Eve in the New Covenant except they obeyed God’s will. They don’t inherit death because death is the result of the original sin.

“The New Ark” The early Christians also compared Mary to the Ark of the Covenant because the Ark of the Covenant carried the presence of God for the Israelites in the Old Testament, and Mary carried Jesus in the New Testament. 1 Kings 8:1-6 explains how the Ark was brought into Solomon’s Temple, and other Scriptures, including 2 Chronicles 6:41-42 and Psalms 132, say that this was a prophetic symbol of something the Messiah would do. Since Mary is the New Ark, this indicates that the Messiah was going to take His Mother into the New Temple – and that Temple is in heaven, Heb. 9:24, Heb. 8:5.

I was a bit curious on this subject myself. Well done.
Thanks.

 

[RyanBlack]

I don’t believe there is any teaching of Mary needing a judgment at all, I’ve never read that in the CCC. Point it out to me please!! God Bless, Memaw

But since all are judged, as the Church teaches, and there is no infallible dogma that states the Theotokos wasn’t judged as well, then how can you claim that she wasn’t? You know, kind of like you insist that, in spite of the overwhelming witness of tradition, I can’t claim that she died, since there is no infallible teaching that she died.

 

[babochka]

Originally Posted by Memaw forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
She didn’t suffer death…She was Assumed Body and Soul intact as stated in the Infallible Dogma. God Bless, Memaw

The dogma doesn’t mention anything about her body and soul being intact. You seem to be putting words into Pope Pius’ mouth, while ignoring his many statements that she did die.
*

Originally Posted by Memaw

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Because they keep insisting she died and I keep saying we do not know for sure. We don’t even know when her earthly time was over. I do believe in the Assumption of Mary because the Pope has defined that Infallibly. And that is done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. God Bless, Memaw

*Memaw, you can’t have it both ways. You object when anyone states that she did die, backing it up with the tradition of the Church, yet you have no problem saying that Mary did not die. Why are you allowed to state your belief as fact, but those of us who disagree with you are not?

 

[Memaw]

The dogma doesn’t mention anything about her body and soul being intact. You seem to be putting words into Pope Pius’ mouth, while ignoring his many statements that she did die.
*

*Memaw, you can’t have it both ways. You object when anyone states that she did die, backing it up with the tradition of the Church, yet you have no problem saying that Mary did not die. Why are you allowed to state your belief as fact, but those of us who disagree with you are not?

You have this whole thing backwards. They can think what they want, their the ones telling me I’m wrong even tho they admit it can be either or! And all I say is I believe the infallible statement made by the Pope. Her Assumption is her body and soul being assumed into Heaven intact!!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[spedteacherita]

To all that believe Mary didn’t die.

Who was the truth, in this case that she couldn’t die, revealed to and when? Obviously, generations, who lived closer to the event, believed otherwise.

And the concept, and reality, of the Trinity is found in scripture for anyone who can count.

We are told, in scripture, that there is only one God. So God =(1) Distinct Nature of God =(1), Jesus says that He and His father are one. God = (1) Distinct Nature of God (2) the Holy Spirit proceeds from Father and Son. God = (1) Distinct Nature of God = (3) So logically 1 God with 3 (tri) distinct natures = trinity.

The witness to Jesus’ words, the concept and teachings were always in evidence. The understanding may have become clearer and the explanation better, but, despite arguments about it, the core information about the Trinity was present in the gospels and was not changed.

That is quite different then what we are discussing here with the Assumption, because the scant core information we initially had about the Assumption led to the understanding that Mary died. Many hundreds of years later some people come along and claim that either:

A) the core information has changed, due to revelations of the Holy Spirit,so our understanding has changed. Or

B) our understanding has changed so we need to disregard the initial core information, since it doesn’t fit.

So, if it’s “A”, to whom and when was this revealed?

And if it is “B”, that is a dangerous practice for any religion that wants to maintain accuracy and preserve its teachings. IMO

:clapping:

Thank you for your explanation!

God bless,

Rita

 

[babochka]

She didn’t require “Judgment” She was Immaculate from Conception to Assumption. What else are we going to throw at Our Blessed Mother?? Some already label her as an unwed Mother, which she WASN’T. God Bless, Memaw

I’ve never heard her referred to in that way, but I wonder if you’re referring to the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, an ancient piece of liturgical poetry from the East. It does refer to Mary as the “unwedded bride” in beautiful, poetic language. The Byzantine Catholic Church uses a different translation, perhaps more acceptable to some ears: “Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden, ever pure”.

Since you have such a beautiful devotion to the Blessed Mother, you might enjoy reading the poem in it’s entirety, or better yet, visiting a Byzantine Rite Church when it is sung during Lent. (Come visit California and you will hear my parish sing it tomorrow night.) It will help give you a better idea of the way in which the term is used and how it in no way detracts from the esteem with which she is held in our church. In fact, it shows the love and esteem we have for her in its entirety.

freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1128727/posts

The link above has the hymn in its entirety; this is a small taste.

Illuminating Egypt with the light of Truth, You dispelled the darkness of sin and seduction, O Saviour. The idols of that land fell down, unable to withstand Your power and all who were delivered from them greeted the Mother of God:Rejoice, elation of mankind!
Rejoice, downfall of the demons!
Rejoice, for you crushed the power of deceit!
Rejoice, for you exposed the fraud of idols!
Rejoice, for like the Red Sea, you have drowned the Pharaoh of duplicity!
Rejoice, for like the rock, you have given drink to those who thirst for life!
Rejoice, Pillar of fire, guiding those in darkness!
Rejoice, Protection of the world, broader that the clouds!
Rejoice, O Successor to manna!
Rejoice, O Servant of the Banquet Divine!
Rejoice, O Promised Land!
Rejoice, Land of milk and honey!
Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!
** From the Heart**
When Simeon was soon to leave this deceitful world, You were brought to him as a Child. Taking You into his arms he recognized You as the true God, and marveling at Your ineffable wisdom, he cried out: Alleluia!

 

[GaryTaylor]

She didn’t require “Judgment” She was Immaculate from Conception to Assumption.

Now thats a new theory.

However, what I’m saying is not at conflict with the IC nor would it be with the East.

Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)

Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.)

The souls of the just which in the moment of death are free from all guilt of sin and punishment for sin, enter into Heaven. (De fide.) Dogmas of the Catholic Church-Ludwig

The original sin accounts for the IC in which Christs singular act of grace would have applied to her at the IC or the Annunciation-Incarnation. Which I don’t see an issue but she lived and as a human like all of us certainly would have been judged like all of us?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Since you have such a beautiful devotion to the Blessed Mother,

I agree babochka, I’m just trying to understand how all this fits into 2000 years of doctrine. In which I see no way around this…

Originally Posted by Vico View Post
He will come to judge the living and the dead.
CCC 1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.

To me I can’t see how we are not talking “immediately” in understanding life-death and her translation to Heaven.

 

[babochka]

Keeping a sense of humor is key, I think. It grounds us and helps us maintain a good perspective.

 

[Memaw]

Now thats a new theory.

However, what I’m saying is not at conflict with the IC nor would it be with the East.

The original sin accounts for the IC in which Christs singular act of grace would have applied to her at the IC or the Annunciation-Incarnation. Which I don’t see an issue but she lived and as a human like all of us certainly would have been judged like all of us?

That’s your opinion, NOT mine! Awhile back they tried to say that Jesus didn’t really know who HE was, just like us. And now your saying Mary was “just like us” No way, I don’t swallow that pill at all.
She was human like us but that’s where it ends. She was born Immaculate, never sinned and when Her time on earth was complete, she was Assumed into Heaven, body and soul together. NO JUDGMENT at all, NO resurrection! Absolutely NO reason for it. THAT"S MY opinion. God Bless, Memaw

 

[RyanBlack]

That’s your opinion, NOT mine! Awhile back they tried to say that Jesus didn’t really know who HE was, just like us. And now your saying Mary was “just like us” No way, I don’t swallow that pill at all.
She was human like us but that’s where it ends. She was born Immaculate, never sinned and when Her time on earth was complete, she was Assumed into Heaven, body and soul together. NO JUDGMENT at all, NO resurrection! Absolutely NO reason for it. THAT"S MY opinion. God Bless, Memaw

If she died, she was resurrected. Assumption does not preclude resurrection.

 

[RyanBlack]

If one does a word search of the text of Munificentissimus Deus for “death,” “raised,” and “risen,” it is clear that Pope Pius XII taught that the Theotokos died and was resurrected.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s your opinion, NOT mine! Awhile back they tried to say that Jesus didn’t really know who HE was, just like us. And now your saying Mary was “just like us” No way, I don’t swallow that pill at all.
She was human like us but that’s where it ends. She was born Immaculate, never sinned and when Her time on earth was complete, she was Assumed into Heaven, body and soul together. NO JUDGMENT at all, NO resurrection! Absolutely NO reason for it. THAT"S MY opinion. God Bless, Memaw

I would love to say death isn’t a factual reality but we have to in some definition die of this world to live eternally. Mary underwent some form of metaphysical change from here to heaven as I’m sure Elijah did too. I have no idea what happened in that moment of transition or translation.

But I think Mary is like us as far as human. I agree there is no other with the prerogative of a supernatural birth being specifically elected and nor do I disagree she indeed has a special vocation or office in relation to “kecharitomene”.

I don’t see where judgement eliminates any of this but is consistent with teaching of the Churches. Her being judged is in accord with consistent Church teaching, it doesn’t negate the fact she is assumed body and soul. It simply means we have no idea what indeed happens in that flashing moment. I mean you can believe as you wish but I don’t see a conflict. So dying is living so to speak. Its also a dogma though not infallible that she would have desired to die like her Son. I agree she would have been judged not guilty of anything in regard to sin etc, but there still imho has to be this moment. I mean in Luke 1:48 Mary indeed needed a savior as all of us.

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25)

That said I’m not familiar with any teaching Mary was not subjected to standing before the Throne of God in judgement. I think you added a new wrinkle in Christian theology

God Bless!

 

[JonNC]

You guys argue like a bunch of Lutherans.

Jon

 

[Blue_Horizon]

You have this whole thing backwards. They can think what they want, their the ones telling me I’m wrong even tho they admit it can be either or! And all I say is I believe the infallible statement made by the Pope. Her Assumption is her body and soul being assumed into Heaven intact!!! God Bless, Memaw

Memaw more than one of us has now challenged you to quote where in the Dogma the word “intact” is used please?

If you cannot rise to the challenge and either prove it (or accept you are mistaken)
what credibility do you have in anything you have to say here from this point on ?

 

[Vico]

Memaw more than one of us has now challenged you to quote where in the Dogma the word “intact” is used please?

If you cannot rise to the challenge and either prove it (or accept you are mistaken)
what credibility do you have in anything you have to say here from this point on ?

What is intact is body and soul corpore et anima], as given in MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS: “… we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma declaramus et definimus divinitus revelatum dogma esse]: that the Immaculate Mother of God Immaculatam Deiparam], the ever Virgin Mary semper Virginem Mariam], having completed the course of her earthly life expleto terrestris vitae cursu], was assumed fuisse assumptam] body and soul corpore et anima] into heavenly glory ad caelestem gloriam]”.