Mary's Assumption

[GaryTaylor]

Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)

The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)

I don’t know, still reading.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Further reading

Mary Compared with Eve
Hence, it is the clear and unanimous opinion of the Fathers that the most glorious Virgin, for whom “he who is mighty has done great things,” was resplendent with such an abundance of heavenly gifts, with such a fullness of grace and with such innocence, that she is an unspeakable miracle of God – indeed, the crown of all miracles and truly the Mother of God; that she approaches as near to God himself as is possible for a created being; and that she is above all men and angels in glory. Hence, to demonstrate the original innocence and sanctity of the Mother of God, not only did they frequently compare her to Eve while yet a virgin, while yet innocence, while yet incorrupt, while not yet deceived by the deadly snares of the most treacherous serpent; but they have also exalted her above Eve with a wonderful variety of expressions. Eve listened to the serpent with lamentable consequences; she fell from original innocence and became his slave. The most Blessed Virgin, on the contrary, ever increased her original gift, and not only never lent an ear to the serpent, but by divinely given power she utterly destroyed the force and dominion of the evil one.
Biblical Figures
Accordingly, the Fathers have never ceased to call the Mother of God the lily among thorns, the land entirely intact, the Virgin undefiled, immaculate, ever blessed, and free from all contagion of sin, she from whom was formed the new Adam, the flawless, brightest, and most beautiful paradise of innocence, immortality and delights planted by God himself and protected against all the snares of the poisonous serpent, the incorruptible wood that the worm of sin had never corrupted, the fountain ever clear and sealed with the power of the Holy Spirit, the most holy temple, the treasure of immortality, the one and only daughter of life – not of death – the plant not of anger but of grace, through the singular providence of God growing ever green contrary to the common law, coming as it does from a corrupted and tainted root.

papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him. But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world… (Wisdom 2:23-24 Douay-Rheims)

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I see that you did not follow that my posts were about dogma.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (p. 208) gives more on the subject of non-death that there were some early opinions. (St. Epiphanius was born about 310 A.D.):St. Epiphanius, who had already instituted researches into the dose of Mary’s life says: Nobody knows how she departed this world. He leaves undecided whether she died a natural death, or whether (according to Luke 2, 35) she died by violence, or whether she (cr. Apac. 12, 14) still lives on immortal in some place unknown to us (Haer 78, 1 I. 24). The unknown author of a sermon,'Which has come down to us under the name of the Presbyter Timotheus of Jerusalem (6th-8th cent.) is of the opinion that the virgin is up to now immortal (that is, did not die), as He “who (in her) lived, translated her into the place of reception (that is, into the Heavenly Paradise)” (Or. in Symeonem) For Mary, death, in consequence of her freedom [from original sin and from personal sin, was not a consequence of punishment of sin (cf. D 1073).

Denzinger quote is:

Denzinger, ST. PIUS V 1566-1572, Errors of Michael du Bay (BAII) *, [Condemned in the Bull “Ex omnibus afflictionibus,” Oct. 1, 1567] (excerpt):1073 73. No one except Christ is free from original sin; hence, the Blessed Virgin died because of sin contracted from Adam, and all of her afflictions in this life as well as those of other just persons were the punishments for actual sin, or for original sin.

 

[Vico]

Shrugs do not mean anything specific to me so there is nothing for me to answer.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I just think its a premature stance to explicitly state one is wrong or right in the overall evaluation of Marys Assumption. All the faithful on both sides of the fence believe what they believe in what they believe is sound reasoning. No different than here or on this link below.

However while one is convicted in their belief its clear also some of this is rooted in incorrect understanding. Take a look at the points in this link. Some was addressed here. No one would doubt for example this fellow in not a very good christian or have a legitimate concern in regards to our conversation. However , that doesn’t make the points or overall assessment right.

taylormarshall.com/2013/08/did-the-virgin-mary-die.html

What is death?

Death is the separation of the body from the soul. When the soul leaves the body, you are dead.

Imho we see much of this today and I’m not sure for good reason in specifics but perhaps great reasoning in resolving inter church conflict, thus the intentions are good. .

 

[Vico]

Right, so once we begin to place this in comprehensive understanding of the final resurrection with dogma, then the comparison to Mary becomes even greater understood as by dogma.

So of what difference was the temporal death of Mary than that of Eve and Adam, had E+A not sinned and remained in the presence of the tree of life?

Adam and Eve certainly died and had preternatural gifts (of Integrity – exemption from concupiscence, Immortality and Infused Knowledge) which were lost. These two, shown below from you quote, are* free opinions*, so are not a required belief.

• From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
• Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)

 

[GaryTaylor]

Adam and Eve certainly died and had preternatural gifts (of Integrity – exemption from concupiscence, Immortality and Infused Knowledge) which were lost. These two, shown below from you quote, are* free opinions*, so are not a required belief.

• From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
• Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)

so are not a required belief.

Sounds good to me, though I think it requires some speculation For example I think we can safely say these preternatural gifts lost were not lost to God or even all His elect today, its safe to say there are in general peoples in the Church who are gifted in this sense in various ways be it exorcism or mystics etc.

I also think further as with Eve and Adam had they not sinned, their position of a physical being soul and body still in some sense would be dying to the past and living in the future and in metaphysical sense of body. So in this sense Mary obtained what Eve would have had she not sinned.

In comparison whats the difference but terminology here of this moment in question of the two?

 

[Vico]

Sounds good to me, though I think it requires some speculation For example I think we can safely say these preternatural gifts lost were not lost to God or even all His elect today, its safe to say there are in general peoples in the Church who are gifted in this sense in various ways be it exorcism or mystics etc.

I also think further as with Eve and Adam had they not sinned, their position of a physical being soul and body still in some sense would be dying to the past and living in the future and in metaphysical sense of body. So in this sense Mary obtained what Eve would have had she not sinned.

In comparison whats the difference but terminology here of this moment in question of the two?

It is clear that after the fall of Adam and Eve (original sin) we do not receive the preternatural gifts at birth.

The APOSTOLIC PENITENTIARY

DECREE

Plenary Indulgences for the 15th World Day of the Sick

Since man fell in consequence of original sin which deprived him of both supernatural and preternatural gifts, God the Creator and Redeemer, in his infinite mercy, has closely united in a mysterious bond what justice demands and what forgiveness obtains; therefore, suffering that has a penal character becomes a favourable opportunity for expiating sin and for obtaining the growth of virtue, and hence, for attaining eternal salvation.

vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_doc_20070125_decreto-giornata-malato_en.html

 

[GaryTaylor]

It is clear that after the fall of Adam and Eve (original sin) we do not receive the preternatural gifts at birth.

The APOSTOLIC PENITENTIARY

DECREE

Plenary Indulgences for the 15th World Day of the Sick

Since man fell in consequence of original sin which deprived him of both supernatural and preternatural gifts, God the Creator and Redeemer, in his infinite mercy, has closely united in a mysterious bond what justice demands and what forgiveness obtains; therefore, suffering that has a penal character becomes a favourable opportunity for expiating sin and for obtaining the growth of virtue, and hence, for attaining eternal salvation.

vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_doc_20070125_decreto-giornata-malato_en.html

Ah, I see, here’s another decent thesis on this…

therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm

So they include three privileges to which human beings have no right via the fall, infused knowledge, integrity-absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality.

Which leads to here…

From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)

 

[Vico]

Ah, I see, here’s another decent thesis on this…

therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm

So they include three privileges to which human beings have no right via the fall, infused knowledge, integrity-absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality.

Which leads to here…

From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)

And so any time the effects of the fall are discussed, which effects are transmitted through original sin, it becomes a matter to determine more precisely about the Blessed Virgin Mary, due to her perpetual state of sinlessness. When Trent defined original sin it excluded the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception came much later.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Sounds good to me, though I think it requires some speculation For example I think we can safely say these preternatural gifts lost were not lost to God or even all His elect today, its safe to say there are in general peoples in the Church who are gifted in this sense in various ways be it exorcism or mystics etc.

I don’t think this is a safe view, at least wrt bodily immortality.

We need to better understand the nature of Adams immortality and how it was lost.

Both Augustine and Aquinas hold that his immortality was “weak” and quite extrinsically dependent.
Even in Eden they aged and their bodies would have worn out. The extrinsic remedy was to regularly eat from the Tree of Life.

However we have lost access to the Tree of Life not as a primary internal constitutional consequence of Original sin but as a conjoined external punishment by being driven from the Garden.

Mary suffers this conjoined secondary external punishment due to Original sin in solidarity with the whole human race…even though internally she suffers no stain or intrinsic constitutional effect due to original sin.
Hence she is heir to aging and sickness and pain and death like any other human exiled from Eden and the Tree of Life.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t think this is a safe view, at least wrt bodily immortality.

We need to better understand the nature of Adams immortality and how it was lost.

Both Augustine and Aquinas hold that his immortality was “weak” and quite extrinsically dependent.
Even in Eden they aged and their bodies would have worn out. The extrinsic remedy was to regularly eat from the Tree of Life.

However we have lost access to the Tree of Life not as a primary internal constitutional consequence of Original sin but as a conjoined external punishment by being driven from the Garden.

Mary suffers this conjoined secondary external punishment due to Original sin in solidarity with the whole human race…even though internally she suffers no stain or intrinsic constitutional effect due to original sin.
Hence she is heir to aging and sickness and pain and death like any other human exiled from Eden and the Tree of Life.

I would have to read what they said, where? As far as worn out I can’t relate as to how?

When Enoch was sixty-five years old, he begot Methuselah.
22
Enoch walked with God after he begot Methuselah for three hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters.
23
The whole lifetime of Enoch was three hundred and sixty-five years.
24
Enoch walked with God,* and he was no longer here, for God took him.d
25
When Methuselah was one hundred and eighty-seven years old, he begot Lamech.
26
Methuselah lived seven hundred and eighty-two years after he begot Lamech,

Thanks

 

[Peter_J]

The kinship is strong.

The son of Skywalker must not become a Jesuit.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We need to better understand the nature of Adams immortality and how it was lost.

We can conclude they didn’t persevere in the presence of the Tree of Life. God said they in choice of another would die, and the serpent said surely you will not die. And surely he lied.

The second chapter of Genesis seems to suggest that the tree of life, which was in the midst of the garden (Gen. 2:9), was the means by which Adam and Eve were to live forever. God had given them permission to eat from that tree, since he said they “may freely eat of every tree of the garden” (Gen. 2:16)—except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

By losing access to this tree through original sin, man lost the opportunity to live forever. In Genesis chapter three we read that God drove him out of the Garden of Eden, “lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” It then says that God placed “cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.”

So the moral of the story is to persevere with the tree of life in faith of God. Here…

Methuselah lived seven hundred and eighty-two years after he begot Lamech,

Same moral of the story be it this was a millennium was to persevere in faith.

Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)

The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)

I have no doubt there’s much written, I not sure in specifics what you mean though.

catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/was-there-death-before-the-fall

 

[Blue_Horizon]

We can conclude they didn’t persevere in the presence of the Tree of Life. God said they in choice of another would die, and the serpent said surely you will not die. And surely he lied.

So the moral of the story is to persevere with the tree of life in faith of God. Here…

Same moral of the story be it this was a millennium was to persevere in faith.

I have no doubt there’s much written, I not sure in specifics what you mean though.

catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/was-there-death-before-the-fall

I am not really interested in Adam.

Aquinas and Augustine would agree that Mary’s Immaculate Conception (which Aquinas probably denied) is irrelevant as a theological argument that she need not die.

Mary, as a member of the human race, is banished from the Garden of Eden like all of us.
Like us she is unable to eat from the Tree of Life and so avoid aging and death.
Therefore death is equally her natural fate as it is for us.

She does not possess the preternatural gift of immortality.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am not really interested in Adam…

Why mention this then…

We need to better understand the nature of Adams]

Aquinas and Augustine would agree that Mary’s Immaculate Conception (which Aquinas probably denied) is irrelevant as a theological argument that she need not die…

This is irrelevant with no reference as I previously asked and thought you would be so polite to provide as you mentioned both twice without reference…

I not sure in specifics what you mean though.

No reference as I said right above.

Mary, as a member of the human race, is banished from the Garden of Eden like all of us.
Like us she is unable to eat from the Tree of Life and so avoid aging and death.
Therefore death is equally her natural fate as it is for us.

Right we established this. We don’t know that she died nor how she died. We been over all this. Her death is not a fact.

She does not possess the preternatural gift of immortality.

Right, we covered this, JP-II I posted it.

Thanks Blue

 

[GaryTaylor]

Reference for the Tree of Life/Eucharist…

He could not have commanded anything more beneficial, for this sacrament is the fruit of the tree of life. Anyone who receives this sacrament with the devotion of sincere faith will never taste death. It is a tree of life for those who grasp it, and blessed is he who holds it fast. The man who feeds on me shall live on account of me.

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/994/Fruit_of_the_Tree_of_Life_Albert_the_Great.html

The general resurrection is mentioned on the thread also, the quick and dead will be raised…

1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Thanks

 

[Vico]

…

She does not possess the preternatural gift of immortality.

It is a free opinion, not a certain, or of faith dogma that:

• Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)

There has much debate about this since the dogma of the Assumption. Some theologians argue that immortality is a privilege bestowed by God.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

It is a free opinion, not a certain, or of faith dogma that:

• Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)

There has much debate about this since the dogma of the Assumption. Some theologians argue that immortality is a privilege bestowed by God.

That may be so.
But such a gift would mistakenly be called a preternatural one according to Aquinas.

We do have a Papal teaching that Mary died that does not yet have dogmatic status.

We do not yet have a teaching, dogmatic or not, that Mary was immortal.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well according to St Thomas…

The third possibility is that something is kept from corruption by an efficient cause maintaining it in its current state. It is this last possibility that applies to the immortality of humans in the Garden of Eden. By a special gift of grace the initial humans were kept from corruption so long as they remained subject to God.

Aquinas answers that the Tree of Life prevented the first humans from dying but that it was not a cause of immortality absolutely speaking. By this he means that the power that enables the body to stay in being is a power of the soul itself. What the fruit of the Tree of Life was able to do was to fortify the body in such a way that the power of the soul to conserve the body was not impeded. But each fruit from the Tree of Life was itself a material body and therefore its power to do this was finite and limited. It was not the case that a single bite from the fruit of the Tree of Life would confer immortality but rather that it had to be taken repeatedly as a food in order for the effect to continue.

Hence it is that St. Thomas insists on two things: (1) that the Mother of God was redeemed, and (2) that the grace of her sanctification was a grace of preservation. And, be it remarked in conclusion, these two points, so much insisted on by St. Thomas, are at the very basis of the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

readingthesumma.blogspot.com/2014/02/question-97-mans-physical-state-in.html

sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum477.htm

sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/

therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm