Mary's Assumption

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IGotQuestions said:
The teaching of the Catholic Church that Mary was taken bodily up to heaven. What is the biblical support for this teaching? And to other Non-Catholic religions teach/believe this as well?
Thank you!
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I want to point out that even if there weren’t any biblical support for this teaching (whatever is meant by ‘support’), this is a historical question. There is no biblical support for the fact that John Chrysostom was the Patriarch of Constantinople. But that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t the Patriarch of Constantinople. And history tells us that after Mary had been interred in her grave, belief arose that she disappered, body and soul.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
That may be so.
But such a gift would mistakenly be called a preternatural one according to Aquinas.

We do have a Papal teaching that Mary died that does not yet have dogmatic status.

We do not yet have a teaching, dogmatic or not, that Mary was immortal.
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Right, the non-dogmatic teaching on death is free opinion. Immortality is also free opinion.
 
Immortality is also free opinion.
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I don’t see where this is contested by anyone in relation to the General Audience of JP-II and his thinking on immortality. Mary indeed achieved immortality just by the fact she was assumed body and soul.

I know of no-one who contends Mary walked around immortal which is somewhat in relation to the General Audience address. The point is death isn’t defined.
Anyone who receives this sacrament with the devotion of sincere faith will never taste death.
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It was not the case that a single bite from the fruit of the Tree of Life would confer immortality but rather that it had to be taken repeatedly as a food in order for the effect to continue.
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She gave birth to the Tree of Life and well as Alfred the Great states- will never taste death. Its true she passed from this earthly realm and from mortal to immortal. But its simply not true she died by any understanding we can qualify.
 
1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
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How do you define how those who are still alive and resurrected died? Its not a matter of they were mortal, no one disagrees, they are alive but resurrected thus immortal?

Then what do we mean by death in such a case? Should I wait for the answer? 😛
 
GaryTaylor said:
I don’t see where this is contested by anyone in relation to the General Audience of JP-II and his thinking on immortality. Mary indeed achieved immortality just by the fact she was assumed body and soul.

I know of no-one who contends Mary walked around immortal which is somewhat in relation to the General Audience address. The point is death isn’t defined.

She gave birth to the Tree of Life and well as Alfred the Great states- will never taste death. Its true she passed from this earthly realm and from mortal to immortal. But its simply not true she died by any understanding we can qualify.
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The bodily immortality of Mary has been discussed because death came through original sin and she was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her conception, and Adam and Eve had infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality (the preternatural gifts). So some have considered that she had bodily immortality, being not subject to death, even as the Son of God was not subject to death.
 
Vico said:
The bodily immortality of Mary has been discussed because death came through original sin and she was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her conception, and Adam and Eve had infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality (the preternatural gifts). So some have considered that she had bodily immortality, being not subject to death, even as the Son of God was not subject to death.
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I don’t see the thinking behind the assertion. Immortal in essence means that they could not die. As mentioned above they A+E were not initially given immortality. God created them to be eternal beings, not immortals. They had the opportunity to cooperate in free will with grace =Tree of Life and would have reached immortality. Had they been immortal then of what difference would they have been than the angels-demons condemned. They would have been condemned to a state they never existed in as mortal?
 
Thats what I’m saying about the garden, I think there are various theories that seem just not quite right. Had Adam and Eve been immortal then they would have been glorified in the sense we are talking imho the were given eternal life as morals with the free will to partake in the Tree of Life and at some point achieve immortality thus glorification. So in Catholic language they were still meriting an increase of grace, and an increase of glory towards heaven thus glorification.

Admittedly I think eternal and immortal are interjected as the same in terminology but I don’t quite see that. Its quite logical they were mortal living eternally but not yet immortal imho. At any rate its appears to be what St Thomas is saying.with the Tree of Life.
 
GaryTaylor said:
I don’t see the thinking behind the assertion. Immortal in essence means that they could not die. As mentioned above they A+E were not initially given immortality. God created them to be eternal beings, not immortals. They had the opportunity to cooperate in free will with grace =Tree of Life and would have reached immortality. Had they been immortal then of what difference would they have been than the angels-demons condemned. They would have been condemned to a state they never existed in as mortal?
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The Catechism give the clear teaching of the Church on the immortal soul, and bodily death for which man was not destined, but that entered the world through sin.

Catechism of the Catholic Church365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

234 Cf. Council of Vienne (1312): DS 902.
366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

235 Cf. Pius XII, Humani Generis: DS 3896; Paul VI, CPG § 8; Lateran Council V (1513): DS 1440.

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. 569 Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. 570 “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered. 571

569 0Cf. Gen 2:17; 3:3; 3:19; Wis 1:13; Rom 5:12; 6:23; DS 1511.
570 Cf. Wis 2:23-24.
571 GS 18 # 2; cf. 1 Cor 15:26.
 
Vico said:
The Catechism give the clear teaching of the Church on the immortal soul, and bodily death for which man was not destined, but that entered the world through sin.

Catechism of the Catholic Church365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

234 Cf. Council of Vienne (1312): DS 902.
366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

235 Cf. Pius XII, Humani Generis: DS 3896; Paul VI, CPG § 8; Lateran Council V (1513): DS 1440.

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. 569 Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. 570 “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered. 571

569 0Cf. Gen 2:17; 3:3; 3:19; Wis 1:13; Rom 5:12; 6:23; DS 1511.
570 Cf. Wis 2:23-24.
571 GS 18 # 2; cf. 1 Cor 15:26.
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Sounds right to me, so in regards to; “donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality.” This is what would have become had they not transgressed? I can’t find this actual teaching in any elaboration.
 
Vico said:
The Catechism give the clear teaching of the Church on the immortal soul, and bodily death for which man was not destined, but that entered the world through sin.

Catechism of the Catholic Church365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

234 Cf. Council of Vienne (1312): DS 902.
366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

235 Cf. Pius XII, Humani Generis: DS 3896; Paul VI, CPG § 8; Lateran Council V (1513): DS 1440.

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. 569 Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. 570 “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered. 571

569 0Cf. Gen 2:17; 3:3; 3:19; Wis 1:13; Rom 5:12; 6:23; DS 1511.
570 Cf. Wis 2:23-24.
571 GS 18 # 2; cf. 1 Cor 15:26.
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It’s interesting that death was not God’s plan for man, yet that does not mean intrinsic immortality was.
The Redemption signalled that this would be the case for good and evil men alike after the fall.

But if man had not fallen…who knows what further gifts God would have granted undying yet unglorified Adam. He had a natural bliss and a graced knowledge of God, but not the Beatific Vision.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Soul -psyche

Spirit - pneuma

newadvent.org/cathen/14220b.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

Could be a difference in spirit.
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Gary is English your first language?
Seriously, I sometimes wonder if your seemingly disconnected posts are a turing test for Forum members.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
It’s interesting that death was not God’s plan for man, yet that does not mean intrinsic immortality was.
The Redemption signalled that this would be the case for good and evil men alike after the fall.

But if man had not fallen…who knows what further gifts God would have granted undying yet unglorified Adam. He had a natural bliss and a graced knowledge of God, but not the Beatific Vision.
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Bodily immortality is not natural but a preternatural gift, so it is not intrinsic to the human nature.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
Gary is English your first language?
Seriously, I sometimes wonder if your seemingly disconnected posts are a turing test for Forum members.
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Very uncharitable Blue, and has not a thing to do with Marys Assumption. Basic ad hominem, lets attempt to stay on topic.

PS - If you can I would appreciate the origin of the Aquinas quotes I assume were paraphrased a few times and I asked for a few times also.

Thanks Blue.
 
In_His_Grace said:
I could be wrong but I think the point Todd977 was making is that the concept of Assumption is explicitly taught in scripture.

In His Grace
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Yes, i have to agree. The idea of Asumption body and soul is not contrary to scripture
 
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