Mary's immaculate conception and history

[gazelam]

gazelam:

hrist alone is sinless

In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. Luke1 :5

How can a person be righteous and blameless in the sight of God if they sin?

That’s a good question and perhaps merits discussion in another thread. The quotes I posted were done so to refute the earlier statement “as far back as is known, the Church in the east and west has believed in the sinlessness of Mary”. The statement is clearly in error.

 

[tgGodsway]

She is the new Eve, created free from this sin, so that her flesh could be given for His flesh.

This belief is on the level of the Mormons. Nothing in scripture confirms and validates this view. Absolutely nothing. Unless the CC repents of this, those who invented it will have to stand at the judgment seat of Christ and receive a terrible rebuke.

 

[gazelam]

This belief is on the level of the Mormons.

What prey tell is that supposed to mean?!?!

 

[BartholomewB]

ritual purity is your invention. It doesn’t say ritual purity. It doesn’t imply ritual purity.

“The days of their purification according to the law of Moses”—It’s right there in the Gospel. Luke 2:22.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/2-22.htm

 

[tgGodsway]

What prey tell is that supposed to mean?!?!

All I mean is that your belief, much like the Mormons, has no biblical support. It is a huge blunder of theology in my view.

 

[tgGodsway]

Look, I am not out on a limb here. Even Augustine, who died in 430 ad and who was admittedly the greatest theologian of the ancient Church, contradicts the idea of immaculate conception, for he expressly declares that Mary’s flesh was “flesh of sin.” (De Peccatorum Meritis, ii, c24) He also said, “Mary springing from Adam, died because of sin; and the flesh of our Lord, derived from Mary, died to take away sin.”

He expressly attributed original sin to Mary in his sermon on Psalms 2. The doctrine was opposed by Chrysostom, Eusebius, Ambrose, Anselm, most of the great medieval schoolmen, including Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, Cardinal Cajetan (Luther’s opponent at Augsburg), and also by two of the greatest of the popes, Gregory the great and Innocent III.

 

[mcq72]

Look, I am not out on a limb here. Even Augustine, who died in 430 ad and who was admittedly the greatest theologian of the ancient Church, contradicts the idea of immaculate conception, for he expressly declares that Mary’s flesh was “flesh of sin.” (De Peccatorum Meritis, ii, c24) He also said, “Mary springing from Adam, died because of sin; and the flesh of our Lord, derived from Mary, died to take away sin.”

He expressly attributed original sin to Mary in his sermon on Psalms 2. The doctrine was opposed by Chrysostom, Eusebius, Ambrose, Anselm, most of the great medieval schoolmen, including Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, Cardinal Cajetan (Luther’s opponent at Augsburg), and also by two of the greatest of the popes, Gregory the great and Innocent III.

What, no unanimous consent of the fathers ? or rather, that somehow there still is unanimous consent on this.

 

[stpurl]

The Fathers are not infallible. And the Church never claimed they were. For pity’s sake, SOME of Origen’s works are solid in theology and some are really not. That doesn’t mean that we throw out everything Origen ever said because some of what he said at another point was ‘off’.

I mean, your own Martin Luther taught the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. By the beliefs of most protestants today who regard Luther as a bright and shining star, that embrace of a major Catholic teaching would have them burning the 95 Theses. . .if protestants held themselves to the same standards that they seem to expect CATHOLICS to hold regarding Catholic theologians.

Double standard much?

 

[tgGodsway]

I gave you solid biblical evidence, but it means nothing to you, so I thought I’d speak your own language, but even that is not enough. To me this is a spiritual bondage. Never mind.

 

[tgGodsway]

Last post was directed at guanophore. Sorry

 

[tgGodsway]

Maybe it was mcq72 I don’t know who. It’s late.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

1. Mary is revealed to be “full of grace” in Luke 1:28.
2. Mary is revealed to be the fulfillment of the prophetic “Daughter of Zion” of Zech. 2:10; Zeph. 3:14-16; Isaiah 12:1-6, etc.
3. Mary is revealed to be “the beginning of the new creation” in fufillment of the prophecy of Jer. 31:22.
4. Mary is revealed to possess a “blessed state” parallel with Christ’s in Luke 1:42.
5. Mary is not just called “blessed” among women, but “more blessed than all women” (including Eve) in Luke 1:42.

see here; The Immaculate Conception in Scripture | Catholic Answers

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

When is it believed that Mary’s immaculate conception was first known about by man?

Since the prophets inspired by God to write. It is not explicit unless you read sacred scripture as Jesus revealed the Word and St. Paul revealed typology of the Old Testament revealed in the New Testament.

Who was the first to be aware that her conception was different?

It was the Angel Gabriel who came down from heaven and Hailed Mary as Royalty and claimed her from heaven to be “full of Grace”. It is the fullness of Grace from God, that saved Mary in her Immaculate Conception in order for the Word of God to be conceived without sin.

How did they know? Is there a widely accepted answer by the Roman Catholic Church?

The short answer is “FAITH”

Our Lady of Lourdes confirmed the Immaculate Conception doctrine followed by signs and wonders from heaven.
Peace be with you

 

[guanophore]

Gorgias, what kind of debate is this?.. this is a poor argument. Paul’s doctrine was speaking not to specifics such as babies, but general in nature. You know that. Why skirt what the holy Spirit is saying to the Church?

It is a valid question. You are claiming that “all” means every single human being ever. Yet, you hypocritically state that children who have not yet reached the age of reason are “exempt” from “all” as Paul defines “all”.

You can’t have it both ways, tgG. Either “all” includes babies and children who have not yet reached the age of reason, or "all " does not really mean “all.”.

Why skirt what the holy Spirit is saying to the Church?

What the Holy Spirit has said to the Church is that we have all been made able, through the sacrifice of Christ, to live without sin. We are no longer slaves to sin, and can choose, by the grace of God, not to sin.

ritual purity is your invention

Really?!

Here is an evangelical source for you, since you are so suspicious of Catholic sources.

Clean, Unclean - Bible Meaning & Definition - Baker's Dictionary

Jesus obeyed the Law because He was righteous,

What does that mean? All the others who obeyed the Law were not?

the apostles, prior to their ministry obeyed the law because they were under it as Jews.

Yes, but what about AFTER their ministry? Do you think that James, the Bishop of Jerusalem, or Peter were not observant Jews? Why does Paul say he follows the Law? Surely you agree that he knows he need not, due to grace?

Mary called God her “savior” because she knew she needed to be saved.

Yes. She knew she needed to be saved, and she was saved from sin.

You try to argue from what Mary didn’t say!

Not really. We don’t expect every person called of God will enumerate their sins in detail! Even Paul, who calls himself a chief among sinners, does not make all his sins specific. Why would you expect every one in scripture to list out their sins? Mary acknowledged that she was saved from sin by God, as do the Apostles and saints.

 

[guanophore]

She didn’t say that she knew how from her conception she was sinless. She didn’t say she was living a sinless life on earth when her first son was born and then after.

Why would she do such a thing? It is contrary to humility to brag about one’s gifts from God. Even Paul, when he brags, acknowledges that he has gone overboard doing so.

The Holy Spirit inspired Mary to say:

5There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zachary, of the course of Abia; and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth. 6And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame. 7And they had no son, for that Elizabeth was barren, and they both were well advanced in years.

Perhaps you can explain how someone can be righteous and justified before God when they are “sinners”?

" and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. "

How is it that John was filled with the Holy Ghost “even from His mothers’ womb?”

"… in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

The Angel Gabriel greets Mary with the title κεχαριτωμένη , instead of her name. She who was filled with grace in the past, with continuing effects into the present.

Hereby we know that Mary was not sanctified by the visitation of the Angel, but before that time.

30And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

34And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

A young woman who is about to be married would not ask such a question. She would assume that the child would be the fruit of the marital embrace. But Mary asks this because she has taken a vow of chastity, and does not ever intend to “know a man”.

She intended to be “ever virgin” as she was espoused to God.

 

[guanophore]

5And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is the same language used in the OT to refer to the marital relationship. This is why we call Mary the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

39And Mary rising up in those days…41And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

46And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
50And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

The Fathers taught that Jesus baptized John while he was still in the womb, so that he also was born free from original sin.

 

[goodcatholic]

You think the Sola Scriptura Crowd would be happy with that? What might they object to, as contentious?

 

[guanophore]

Her peers didn’t agree that she was sinless.

First of all, Mary has no “peers”. She occupies a role in salvation history that was not, and will not, be occupied by anyone. Are you suggesting that the other Apostles ought to have accused her of sin?

27And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. 28But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.Luke 11

Jesus affirms that Mary, though she knew she would be called “blessed” in every generation by the privilege of bearing the Christ, was even more blessed because she heard the word of God, and kept it. Just as Jesus cleansed His Apostles by His Word, He cleansed His mother.

The Apostles didn’t say, they knew she was sinless

It is true that Luke was not an Apostle. His deliberate arrangement of the birth narrative to demonstrate that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant is usually lost on evangelicals. The early church understood that Mary was the new Eve.

You claim Mary is sinless without confirmation from the word of God.

I think you have not read about the meaning of κεχαριτωμένη

“kecharitomene.”

“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”

“charis” – Means “grace”

“charitoo” – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being “charis” or “grace,” “charitoo” means “to put into a state of "grace.”

“ke” – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of “charis,” or “grace,” as a result of past action.

“mene” – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of “charis,” or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the “other” is God.

Therefore, “chaire kecharitomene” means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.”

κεχαριτωμένη indicates that Mary was placed into a perfect state of grace (free from sin) prior to the visit of the Angel. Gabriel greeted her as κεχαριτωμένη, used as a title, rather than her name.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

This belief is on the level of the Mormons. Nothing in scripture confirms and validates this view. Absolutely nothing. Unless the CC repents of this, those who invented it will have to stand at the judgment seat of Christ and receive a terrible rebuke.

It was Jesus Himself who revealed and confirmed the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Woman of Genesis 3:15, when Jesus names her twice in scripture as “WOMAN” at Jesus first miracle at the Wedding feast at Cana and at the foot of the Cross, when Jesus gives us His Mother through John.

Yes, from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition Mary is the New Eve.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

The problem with the Sola Scripturalist, they all have different ways of interpreting the bible. In short, their take away from only scripture, has no backbone or support from antiquity. Where as to see the Immaculate Conception through sacred Scripture, one has to read it as Jesus revealed divine revelation through the scriptures fulfilled.

For example; Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
** between you and the woman,**
** and between your offspring[a] and hers;**
he will crush your head,
** and you will strike his heel.”**
The Title “Woman” or new Eve from Genesis, Jesus dignifies His Mother with the title “Woman” = Mother of all the living. When God Himself through His Word “put enmity” between Satan and Mary and between her Son Jesus. To conclude God has both the blessed Mother and her son Jesus delivering a deadly blow to Satan’s head.

What Christian can deny this?