Mary's immaculate conception and history

[kainosktisis]

I tend to view it more from the perspective of Jesus honoring His Father & His Blessed Mother. The Scriptures are clear that it’s both parents that are to be honored. It makes no limitations/exceptions on one parent being created. Jesus honored both parents in fulfillment of the Scriptures. I don’t think that citing favoritism towards anyone applies in her case as she was His first disciple. She could’ve told Gabriel no since she could very well have mistakenly been taken as having gotten pregnant out of wedlock & stoned by her people. It was a HUGE risk - but her obedience to God mattered more than anything else.

 

[Benadam]

that you agree with the Jews who say " we know his father and mother…How can he be the messiah? They would think it impossible the ark of the covenant to be anything but the messiah. Not being able to separate the vessel from what is within it as two persons. That was because the Incarnation could only be revealed by heaven.

 

[Benadam]

Our Blessed Mother is the highest accomplishment of the Jewish people. The Incarnation is the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Benadam]

He is not a respecter of persons, but is also the best at determining and giving honor where honor is due. Jesus demonstrated this when she came seeking Jesus and Jesus did not leave with her, but said, “my mother and brother and sister is he who does the will of the Father”.

He is a respecter of persons when it is a divine command. “Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father and Mother” Jesus came to fulfill that Law too. Jesus did that fully. Full of Grace.

“my mother and brother and sister is he who does the will of the Father”.

Right before He said that in the Scriptures he warned us to be careful how we hear. That statement can be heard as an affirmation or an accusation. Don’t want to be an accuser of the brethren.

 

[Benadam]

As a side note, it is not a woman, man thing, an adam or eve(new) thing , for in heaven we are not as given in marriage, but as the angels…Jesus is true end for all men and women.

Your logic is flawed. This is an original thing. Original sin thing. So, it’s an original Man and Woman thing. It follows that it is a New Man and New Woman thing as well. it being a man thing without a woman isn’t consistent with the history of sin and salvation as a whole.

Edit to add: That Jesus and Mary live their earthly lives as not given to carnal reproduction is consistent with the reason why those worthy of eternal life in heaven are like the angels and aren’t given in marriage. We reproduce our kind because our earthly lives end. That they end in death makes sexual reproduction necessary.

 

[mcq72]

ur Blessed Mother is the highest accomplishment of the Jewish people. The Incarnation is the work of the Holy Spirit

Well, Christ is the highest or crown jewel of Judaism…all the work of the triune God, even our faith, even Mary’s faith.

 

[mcq72]

t follows that it is a New Man and New Woman thing as well. it being a man thing without a woman isn’t consistent with the history of sin and salvation as a whole.

I would think a spirit is neither female nor male…but yes the flesh now needs both sexes…one sex Male seems to save both sexes, even any humanity that comes to believe

 

[mcq72]

The whole contents of the Ark is a prefigurement of Christ.

Agree to the wonderful prefigurements of the contents to Christ, but the ark itself, made of earthly elements, where Gods presence chose to manifest itself on, can also be a prefigurement of the earthly elements of His flesh that He chose to manifest himself on/in

 

[guanophore]

Agree to the wonderful prefigurements of the contents to Christ, but the ark itself, made of earthly elements, where Gods presence chose to manifest itself on, can also be a prefigurement of the earthly elements of His flesh that He chose to manifest himself on/in

Yes. Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, contained Him and He drew His flesh from hers.

 

[Benadam]

Well, Christ is the highest or crown jewel of Judaism…all the work of the triune God, even our faith, even Mary’s faith.

Ok. The Incarnation is the crowning work of the Jews. God asked them for help. Have it your. Way.

 

[Benadam]

would think a spirit is neither female nor male…

Have no idea what you are referring to

 

[mcq72]

Have no idea what you are referring to

I know…Im dizzy from goin round n round…lol

 

[mcq72]

I think you will agree with me that Augustine is not on the level of Sacred Scripture, who calls the Virgin kecharitomene. The angel greets Mary with the Title of "she who has been previously filled with grace’.

Yes, but it shows that P’s are not bringing anything new to the table on this issue.

As to Mary, I would hope the young Jewish virgin maiden was filled with grace and faith in the Promises from a youth, enough to say, “yes Lord”. She was not a pagan, a Roman or Philistine but justified and sanctified Jewess, like Elizabeth, and many others. That she was "fuller’’ as some might add, and if there is such a thing, is due to her specific calling ,even the highest, first to bear a child, secondly that it be the Messiah. Not sure that she herself was any more justified, holier, than say Elizabeth, but her calling yes.

 

[kainosktisis]

Ok, it appears we have variations on the matter of Church Fathers & the Immaculate Conception in regards to Aquinas:

http://jimmyakin.com/aquinas-on-the-immaculate-conception

"…here is what Aquinas said (Summa Theologiae III:27:4):

“I answer that, God so prepares and endows those, whom He chooses for some particular office, that they are rendered capable of fulfilling it, according to 2 Cor. 3:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available): ‘(Who) hath made us fit ministers of the New Testament.’ Now the Blessed Virgin was chosen by God to be His Mother. Therefore there can be no doubt that God, by His grace, made her worthy of that office, according to the words spoken to her by the angel (Lk. 1:30Open in Logos Bible Software (if available),31Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)): ‘Thou hast found grace with God: behold thou shalt conceive,’ etc. But she would not have been worthy to be the Mother of God, if she had ever sinned. First, because the honor of the parents reflects on the child, according to Prov. 17:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available): ‘The glory of children are their fathers’: and consequently, on the other hand, the Mother’s shame would have reflected on her Son. Secondly, because of the singular affinity between her and Christ, who took flesh from her: and it is written (2 Cor. 6:15Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)): ‘What concord hath Christ with Belial?’ Thirdly, because of the singular manner in which the Son of God, who is the ‘Divine Wisdom’ (1 Cor. 1:24Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) dwelt in her, not only in her soul but in her womb. And it is written (Wis. 1:4Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)): ‘Wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.’

“We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) is fulfilled: ‘Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee,’ etc. “

And here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

This is very lengthy so it’s up to you to read it in full…or not…

 

[mcq72]

Perhaps, but as it is, what we have in Scripture is the Queen Mother asking favor from her Son, just as Mary asks favor from Him at the Wedding in Cana.

OK yet I wonder, if it not be like the best picture we might have of some of the operations of the “other side”. That perhaps Jesus, like Abraham, may tell Mary, like Abraham told the rich ruler in gehenna, that no special meddling will be given, save that which is already in place on the earth, for He has always known what we need and will request.

Look, even lol, it is enough for me to believe that He hears my petitions, and that of all saints (earth bound still) that have mentioned my need specifically, or those of my ancestors that have thought of me/you (we have been prayed for futuristically in quite a few places in Writ), and would even say those in heaven pray for us and even specifically by name (relatives etc) , but not as if they heard our prayers specifically (much like I can pray for my future offspring in a general sense, that they spiritually blessed and obedient etc etc).

So like the writ mentioned above (Rich Man and Lazarus), we have enough to busy ourselves, interacting with the participants of the race at hand, on this side of eternity, much less petitioning those on the other side, save the Godhead.

 

[Athanasiy]

I’m under the impression of a book about what was the role of Eros in the history of the Jews.
Some ancient rabbis taught that the procreative relations with his wife should be with prayer.
and by the way this opinion and have many spiritual Catholics, who argue that even the act of copulation must be with prayer.
Its interesting that sexuality was a central issue in Israel’s self-conception , with adultery and fidelity the dominant metaphors both for Israel’s relationship to God and for national identity.
As opposed to many medieval Chistian writers who believed that the Holy Spirit could not be present while human beings were engaged in carnal intercourse, the Kabbalistic - and medieval Judaism in general - held the very opposite: intercourse between man and wife brings the Shekinah, the divine presence, into conjugal bed.

 

[mcq72]

I’m under the impression of a book about what was the role of Eros in the history of the Jews.

Some ancient rabbis taught that the procreative relations with his wife should be with prayer.

and by the way this opinion and have many spiritual Catholics, who argue that even the act of copulation must be with prayer.

Its interesting that sexuality was a central issue in Israel’s self-conception , with adultery and fidelity the dominant metaphors both for Israel’s relationship to God and for national identity.

As opposed to many medieval Chistian writers who believed that the Holy Spirit could not be present while human beings were engaged in carnal intercourse, the Kabbalistic - and medieval Judaism in general - held the very opposite: intercourse between man and wife brings the Shekinah, the divine presence, into conjugal bed.

a little bit of leaven spoileth the whole lump

 

[susanlo]

Ok, it appears we have variations on the matter of Church Fathers & the Immaculate Conception in regards to Aquinas:

Aquinas on the Immaculate Conception – Jimmy Akin

Thomas Aquinas lived in the 13th century after the patristic period. I am learning since starting this thread that it was a little before his time when the immaculate conception was first believed. In your post #24 we see that Aquinas, Bernard, Bonaventure, etc. disagreed with John Scottus. John Scottus believed in the immaculate conception while Thomas Aquinas believed that she had contracted original sin at her conception, but was cleansed from it before her birth. He believed that this happened to Jeremiah and John the Baptist as well.
Aquinas:

I answer that, Nothing is handed down in the canonical Scriptures concerning the sanctification of the Blessed Mary as to her being sanctified in the womb; indeed, they do not even mention her birth. But as Augustine, in his tractate on the Assumption of the Virgin, argues with reason, since her body was assumed into heaven, and yet Scripture does not relate this; so it may be reasonably argued that she was sanctified in the womb. For it is reasonable to believe that she, who brought forth “the Only-Begotten of the Father full of grace and truth,” received greater privileges of grace than all others: hence we read (Luke 1:28) that the angel addressed her in the words: “Hail full of grace!”

Moreover, it is to be observed that it was granted, by way of privilege, to others, to be sanctified in the womb; for instance, to Jeremias, to whom it was said (Jeremiah 1:5): “Before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee”; and again, to John the Baptist, of whom it is written (Luke 1:15): “He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother’s womb.” It is therefore with reason that we believe the Blessed Virgin to have been sanctified before her birth from the womb.

Article 1 - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4027.htm

(I am not familiar with the writing from Augustine on the Assumption of Mary that he cites in this. I see in the Catholic Encyclopedia that there was a spurious sermon on the Assumption attributed to Augustine. I imagine it was this spurious writing that Aquinas is citing.)

So Thomas Aquinas did not believe that Mary had an immaculate conception. I don’t know why Jimmy Akin calls this a “half-truth.” However his and his peers’ beliefs were far from what was taught in the 3rd century by Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian who wrote that only Jesus was sinless; and even different from the 4th and 5th century when Ambrose and Augustine taught that Mary was given graces so she would not have personal sins, but that only Jesus was free of original sin.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, but it shows that P’s are not bringing anything new to the table on this issue.

You are right. From the beginning, there have been those who do not accept the Apostolic teaching.

That she was "fuller’’ as some might add, and if there is such a thing, is due to her specific calling ,even the highest, first to bear a child, secondly that it be the Messiah. Not sure that she herself was any more justified, holier, than say Elizabeth, but her calling yes.

Yes, she had a unique and unrepeatable role in God’s plan of salvation.

As to Mary, I would hope the young Jewish virgin maiden was filled with grace and faith in the Promises from a youth, enough to say, “yes Lord”.

I think this goes beyond “hope”! She was filled with grace, as the scripture indicates. The Angel Gabriel greets her with the Title Kecharitomene - she who is filled with grace from a time in the past, continuing into the present. Even the Angels knew of the special role in salvation history Mary would play.

but not as if they heard our prayers specifically

Those who have gone on before us hear whatever God allows them to hear. God allowed Samuel to hear and respond to Saul, even though Saul sought a forbidden method.

God allowed Moses and Elijah to hear Jesus, and to be aware of events that were occurring in this life. God hears the prayers of the saints and martrys under His altar in Heaven, praying for those still on earth.

we have enough to busy ourselves, interacting with the participants of the race at hand, on this side of eternity, much less petitioning those on the other side, save the Godhead.

You can certainly limit the power of your prayers if you desire. But Catholics believe that those who are righteous (completed in heaven) have effectual and fervent prayers that avail much. If you think that Jesus should not have interacted with Moses and Elijah, that is your call.

 

[Athanasiy]

No, I was just trying to understand whether at least some subtext in ancient Jewish thought about the topic which is discussed here.