Mary's immaculate conception and history

[gazelam]

When is it believed that Mary’s immaculate conception was first known about by man? Who was the first to be aware that her conception was different? How did they know? Is there a widely accepted answer by the Roman Catholic Church?

I just came across this “revelation” from Mary to St. Bridget of Sweden which states that God did not want all men to know of the Immaculate Conception initially.

“Know that my Conception has not been known to all, for God so willed it, that as the natural law and the voluntary election of good and evil preceded the written law, and afterwards came the written law, which restrained every inordinate emotion; so has it pleased God that even my friends should have pious doubts concerning my Conception, and that each should display his zeal, until at the preordained time the truth shall shine forth” (Book vi, 55). (William Bernard Ullathorne, The Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God [Westminster, UK: Art and Book Company, 1904], 157)

 

[Truth4]

God in human form and God in his fullness is not same. Human have to die and not God. Jesus was human with the power of God.To die for us he took human form. If he is fully God, death cannot prevail in him. As a human he need parents in this world and he took Mary and Joseph.why we say "Mother of Jesus pray for me "and not order or command your son to bless me. Bcz after his resurrection he is Fully God for ever.Mary knew it will so after the cann marriage she didnt request anything bcz she come between Father and son and so Jesus in an unpleasant manner replied. But in accordance with the comantment “Honour ur father and mother” he did miracle for her.
JESUS after his resurrection visited everyone but not his mother of this world. Jesus told women not to touch him but to appostle he ask them to touch him. God have no relationship and no relation especially to women.There is no women in God presence they cannot go near to him.
Why there is no women priest?
Its Gods discretion and God always walk with man only

 

[susanlo]

I just came across this “revelation” from Mary to St. Bridget of Sweden which states that God did not want all men to know of the Immaculate Conception initially.

“Know that my Conception has not been known to all, for God so willed it, that as the natural law and the voluntary election of good and evil preceded the written law, and afterwards came the written law, which restrained every inordinate emotion; so has it pleased God that even my friends should have pious doubts concerning my Conception, and that each should display his zeal, until at the preordained time the truth shall shine forth” (Book vi, 55). (William Bernard Ullathorne, The Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God [Westminster, UK: Art and Book Company, 1904], 157)

Thanks for sharing this. So Bridget of Sweden lived during the 14th century. This was the century following Thomas Aquinas when John Scottus believed in the immaculate conception and disagreed with Aquinas and his peers from his region about that. So the idea was winning acceptance during this time when the “revelation” occurred. Maybe it was already widely accepted by the 14th century. I wonder if John Scottus in the 13th century was the first to teach explicitly of the immaculate conception.

 

[guanophore]

God in human form and God in his fullness is not same.

Certainly not. Human form is too finite for the fullness of God. However, God has manifested the fullness of Christ in the Catholic Church, which has aspects in this physical, temporal world as well as the next life.

why we say "Mother of Jesus pray for me

Is there no one in your life that you love and respect enough to ask for their prayers? You never asked your mother to pray for you?

Mary knew it will so after the cann marriage she didnt request anything bcz she come between Father and son and so Jesus in an unpleasant manner replied.

I think you are mistakenly reading your own modern bias into this story. Jesus calls Mary “Woman”, indicating that she is the New Eve. He later affirms that she is blessed because she heard the word of God and kept it, unlike Eve, who disobeyed.

He then allows his Mother to choose the time for him to begin His public ministry. She knows that, from this day forward, it will be straight march to the cross, but He allows her to give her consent to it. She chooses the time that He will reveal Himself in the miracle he does for her.

But in accordance with the comantment “Honour ur father and mother” he did miracle for her.

Yes, but not because he was not fully willing. He was not bound by the Law, as the Maker of the Law. He did it because of His respect for her, and because she needed to relinquish Him to his ministry and subsequent death. Who knows how many miracles He had already done for her of this kind? She was so confident when she told them “do whatever He tells you”, as though she had a lifetime of experience!

 

[guanophore]

JESUS after his resurrection visited everyone but not his mother of this world.

What makes you think that? Do you think that everything Jesus said and did was written?

On the contrary, the reason that Mary was not in the upper room cringing in fear with the Apostles is that she already knew what was going to happen.

esus told women not to touch him but to appostle he ask them to touch him.

I am sorry, I think I am missing your point? He told Mary of Magdala not to cling to Him. She wanted to hold to his corporeal being, and He needed to ascend to the father.

God have no relationship and no relation especially to women.

LOL. Sorry, I just find such a position to be so hard to defend in the face of all the evidence. I guess you are saying He did not have a relationship with His mother? Do you suppose they never did anything together for the first 30 years of HIs life? Or when the Scripture says Jesus was obedient to his parents, it only meant Joseph?

There is no women in God presence they cannot go near to him.

Maybe you can explain this. I am especially interested in Mary bathing His feet with oil, and Mary the sister of Lazarus sitting at His feet. Oh and maybe you could also include the Samaritan woman?

Why there is no women priest?

Its Gods discretion and God always walk with man only

And the twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Mag′dalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, 3 and Jo-an′na, the wife of Chu′za, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them[a] out of their means. Luke 8

Honestly, you need to get away from whoever it is that is spoon feeding you this drivel!

 

[Truth4]

In my above all conversation, I am talking about God in heaven and in his presence and not in this world as Jesus.
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.
Bcz, Jesus is now the God, and he is holy of holy. Women are always considered unclean.(hope u all know). This is the reason why women are not anointed as priest in church too. In heaven and in Gods presence there are no woman. All apostles with Jesus are men. yes.as Jesus women touched him, clean his feet but after resurrection no way.
God created woman for man to this world.after resurrection man and women are like angels, even though stay far away in heaven from Gods utmost Glory. He is surrounded by cherubim and archangels, elders, fire and so and so.

 

[guanophore]

In my above all conversation, I am talking about God in heaven and in his presence and not in this world as Jesus.

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.

Bcz, Jesus is now the God, and he is holy of holy.

Do you believe that Jesus ceased to be God while He was in the flesh?

Women are always considered unclean.(hope u all know).

No, I did not know that. Does the Bible teach this?

This is the reason why women are not anointed as priest in church too.

The Apostles taught that the priest acts in the persona of Christ. That being the case, the priest takes the “male” role as did Jesus. He is espoused to His One Body, the Church. The Church does not choose women for priests because Jesus did not. But I am curious to hear what it was that Jesus said that indicated all women are unclean.

In heaven and in Gods presence there are no woman.

Oh! Well, this will be news to Mary and all the women who have gone before us in the faith. It will also be news to St. John, who seemed to believe that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, and was taken up by the Holy Spirit.

yes.as Jesus women touched him, clean his feet but after resurrection no way.

OIC. Is this because He was really not fully God when He was in the flesh?

God created woman for man to this world.after resurrection man and women are like angels, even though stay far away in heaven from Gods utmost Glory. He is surrounded by cherubim and archangels, elders, fire and so and so.

Wait, the men have to stay far away from Gods utmost Glory also? Or maybe just not as far away as the women?

I am curious about your Church affiliation. I was unaware that these doctrines were taught by any non-Catholic group.

 

[Truth4]

I too believe she is the Ark of the Covenant but Where it said by St.John.
Please quote for my better understanding

 

[Truth4]

“no” in truth not. This is all my questions I ask God. I don’t ask to any church or priest or Pastor for direction but to the holy-spirit, through fasting, and the revelation is not under the banner of any church.My body is my Jesus temple (Church), he is the corner stone, where St.Peter laid his first stone of faith and I laid my stone too. It is the truth, I will not get an entry to Gods kingdom on the basis of any Church but on my faith, love and my deeds.
Understanding.
1)Jesus not created any church but the scriptures are collected and ordered by Roman Church
2)Who ever believe in Father and Son and obey his commandments through love have eternal life.
3)Jesus is the one and only mediator, advocate between Father and his creations. ( If you have the love to Jesus, and you believe that you are his child, everyone have the right to ask and you receive it at his time and will). For me: Me to Jesus and Jesus to Father and I often have had received everything I asked for according to his will and on his time.

1. If you ask to saints then Saints to Jesus and Jesus to Father… that is the order. Bcz they cant give a blessing if God didn’t grand it.
2. Salvation and resurrection is through Jesus only and nobody can take part in it bcz he sacrificed himself for us
3. Death is actually rest from all worldly affairs and waiting for masters call to resurrection.
   Revelation 22:12-15. And behold, I — Jesus Christ; come quickly — To judge the world. And my reward — Both of (grace) and (vengeance); is with me — The reward which I shall assign, both to the righteous and the wicked, shall be conferred (at my coming); to give to (every) man according as his( work) — His spirit and (conduct), his (whole inward) and (outward behavior), shall be.
4. women is unclean bcz of their menstruation and they cant judge the time correctly at all the time.If a women decided to be holy but her body nature make her unclean. Its not the case of men, if a man decided to be holy, he is holy. If a women is granted priestly-hood and she fall unclean,her service is unholy to God.
   Yes. there is an order in the presence of God. A persons deed and reward that make the gap in heaven too. eg. where Apostle John stand,how could we stand there. Where cherubim and archangels stand How could we stand there.
   Rev 14:4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.(Jesus is not coming with any women or mother Mary but with men of utmost purity.

Finally and the truth, when I ask Father through Jesus the holy spirit is pouring everything to me.
People look from the side of their Church and saints but I look from the side of Jesus my Lord and savior.

 

[Aulef]

Our Lady did what had to be done, according to the old Law, which was still the Word of God she had to obey.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yes, I agree, she was under the law just like the rest of us.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t ask to any church or priest or Pastor for direction but to the holy-spirit, through fasting, and the revelation is not under the banner of any church.

This is very curious. Do you think that Jesus was wasting His time establishing a Church, training His Apostles to lead the Church, and expecting that all believers would be united in this One Church?

he is the corner stone, where St.Peter laid his first stone of faith and I laid my stone too.

I think not, Truth4. If your stone was laid next to that of St. Peter, then you would be obedient to what he taught.

It is the truth, I will not get an entry to Gods kingdom on the basis of any Church but on my faith, love and my deeds.

Understanding.

This is very Catholic of you to say!

Jesus not created any church but the scriptures are collected and ordered by Roman Church

Interesting. So do you believe that when He said “upon this Rock I will build my Church” it is a misrepresentation? Did a Roman Catholic put that in the Bible?

Do you believe the reference in the New Testament to the Catholic Church is a mistake? The Holy Spirit did not inspire this part, but it just snuck into the text?

When did the “Roman Church” get founded? Who started it?

2)Who ever believe in Father and Son and obey his commandments through love have eternal life.

I agree, but there is a great deal connected to “believe”. Jesus told the Apostles to “teach all that I have commanded you”, which would include the Church He founded. He also taught that “unless you eat of the flesh of the son of man, and drink His blood, you will have not life in you”. How does one do that?

3)Jesus is the one and only mediator, advocate between Father and his creations

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

 

[susanlo]

On the contrary, the reason that Mary was not in the upper room cringing in fear with the Apostles is that she already knew what was going to happen.

What source reveals this?

The Apostles taught that the priest acts in the persona of Christ.

What is your source for this? In persona Christi is a Latin term. What term did the Apostles use?

It will also be news to St. John, who seemed to believe that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, and was taken up by the Holy Spirit.

Are you basing this on the Book of Revelation? Are you referring to the assumption of Mary? How do you find that?

women is unclean bcz of their menstruation and they cant judge the time correctly at all the time.If a women decided to be holy but her body nature make her unclean. Its not the case of men, if a man decided to be holy, he is holy. If a women is granted priestly-hood and she fall unclean,her service is unholy to God.

What about post-menopausal women? Would you say that they are also unholy?

 

[Agathon]

What source reveals this?

Simeon told her as much.

 

[guanophore]

What source reveals this?

She did not go to the tomb to anoint the body because she already knew He was no longer in it.

What is your source for this? In persona Christi is a Latin term. What term did the Apostles use?

I Cor. 5 “When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus…”

2 Corinthians 2:10 What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11 to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs.”

the Greek text says that St Paul forgave sins “en prosopo Christou”.

“Prosopon” in Greek literally means “face” (translated persona into Latin}

In English translations, both the Douay-Rheims and the King James Bible translate “en prosopo Christou” as “in the person of Christ.”

Are you basing this on the Book of Revelation?

The first chapter of Luke, actually, but it is reinforced in Revelation.

What about post-menopausal women? Would you say that they are also unholy?

Honestly, the whole theory just sounds nutsy koo koo!

 

[Truth4]

Romans 16:5 says “… greet the church that is in their house.” Paul refers to the church in their house—not a church building, but a body of believers.

The church is the body of Christ, of which He is the head. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

[Truth4]

Romans 16:5 says “… greet the church that is in their house.” Paul refers to the church in their house—not a church building, but a body of believers.

The church is the body of Christ, of which He is the head. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Wrong concept that Jesus is the founder of Catholic Church

 

[Truth4]

Believe in Jesus means, One have to do everything that Jesus ask to do

 

[guanophore]

Romans 16:5 says “… greet the church that is in their house.” Paul refers to the church in their house—not a church building, but a body of believers.

ARe you under some misapprehension that Catholics believe otherwise?

Truth4, the New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Paul is a Catholic Apostle who is writing to the Catholic Church in Rome.

The church is the body of Christ, of which He is the head. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Wrong concept that Jesus is the founder of Catholic Church

You did not answer my question, Truth4. I asked you when the CC was founded, and who founded it.

Believe in Jesus means, One have to do everything that Jesus ask to do

I am glad we are in agreement about this. I am curious why it is that you have not followed the commandments in the New Testament. Are you saying that you know the New Testament is a collection of Catholic books, and you did not follow what it says because you don’t want to be Catholic?

 

[guanophore]

Yes, I agree, she was under the law just like the rest of us.

No, not like the rest of us (unless you are a Jew).