Mary's Immaculate conception

[blessedrosary]

I fail to understand why most Protestants have a problem believing that Mary was sinnless. If Jesus is God, which ALL Christians believe, then why is it so bad to believe that our Lord and Savior deserves to be born of someone somewhat-worthy to be his mother.
Also, if I could create my own mother, which Jesus could have done, then why WOULDN’T he make her perfect?
Also, Protestants act like it is an offense against Jesus by venerating his mother. I think most people take great honor in hearing complements of our own biological mother. Woudn’t you agree?
Please explain your beliefs on this issue to me. Thanks and God bless.

 

[mark_a]

blessedrosary:

I fail to understand why most Protestants have a problem believing that Mary was sinnless.

Because this is a biggie for Catholics, and they must differentiate themselves. I get the feeling that many wouldn’t even have given Mary’s sinlessness a single thought, except that it’s a Catholic teaching.

Also, Protestants act like it is an offense against Jesus by venerating his mother.

Or any other Saint. . . . .

 

[BrianH]

Because Blessedrosary, the Catholic Encyclopedia sums it up for us;
"No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. "
It then goes on to give some texts, that COULD, strengthen this view but are not convincing to us. It then shifts to defending this
by looking at tradition…and you are aware I am sure how unconvincing that is to us.
Thanks
BrianH

 

[MusicMan]

The Immaculate Conception presents us with a doctrinal paradox. Mary was born sinless to bear the sinless one whose cross and resurrection would free us from our sin.

Here’s the paradox: If God could create Mary without sin, then why can’t He create the rest of us without sin? If he could do it for one of us, why can’t he do it for all?

 

[blessedrosary]

MusicMan:

Here’s the paradox: If God could create Mary without sin, then why can’t He create the rest of us without sin? If he could do it for one of us, why can’t he do it for all?

Actually God can create us without sin, and if you disagree with that you are putting God down, not Mary. Because of our lack of faith, we sin, not because of our lack of God’s grace. Through our babtism in Christ we are cleansed of original sin. Adam and Eve sinned and weren’t born of original sin. Therefore we still need our Savior, Jesus Christ, to save us after we fall. But in answer to your question, I would imagine God would have more graces on the humanly mother himself, considering she’s actually part of our salvation.
And I also do have Scripture to prove the immaculate conception. In Genesis 3:15 God is speaking to Satan. “I will put emnity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”
This passage is great way to prove salvation through Jesus Christ. However, God our Father even says that there is emnity between Satan and MARY. God doesn’t say that he will put emnity between only Satan and the Child of the Woman (Mary). He includes Mary and that is strong Scriptual proof of the immaculate conception.

 

[banjo]

MusicMan:

Here’s the paradox: If God could create Mary without sin, then why can’t He create the rest of us without sin? If he could do it for one of us, why can’t he do it for all?

“O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” Rm 11:33
God certainly could have done the same for everyone for nothing is impossible for Him.

 

[BrianH]

Blessedrosary let me get this straight,
you believe that 3:15 refers to Mary…
is that only 3:15 or what about the next verse when he specifically adresses the woman?

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee "

If you do not think that 3:16 also refers to Mary…why?

Thanks,
BrianH

 

[blessedrosary]

BrianH:

Blessedrosary let me get this straight,
you believe that 3:15 refers to Mary…
is that only 3:15 or what about the next verse when he specifically adresses the woman?

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee "

If you do not think that 3:16 also refers to Mary…why?

Thanks,
BrianH

    The answer is simple.  God is speaking directly to the woman in 3:16.  And as we know, Mary wasn't in existence during the creation of the earth.   Anyway, if you believe that the woman in 3:15 is the same woman as in 3:16 then what emnity was put between Satan and Eve?  And what child of Eve's crushed the head of Satan?
 I think the answer is not only simple, it is quite obvious too.

 

[Church_Militant]

BR, I think that many people fail to recognize the really awesome power of Jesus’ sacrifice.

What does St. John call him in Revelation13:8? “And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.” (Emphasis mine)

So if that sacrifice was a done deal even then, then we can begin to understand how Old Testament saints were saved by it…and even more wonderful is how that same saving sacrifice could (and was!) applied to the Blessed Virgin to purify the Ark of the New Covenant within which would be carried the Son of the Most High God. We must never forget that the sacrifice of the cross flows in both directions in time in ways that only God could have planned.

We are really terribly silly in our reasoning and understanding sometimes when it comes to the things that God chooses to do? What do we know??
Pax tecum,

 

[Gnosis]

Actually God can create us without sin, and if you disagree with that you are putting God down, not Mary. Because of our lack of faith, we sin, not because of our lack of God’s grace

If Mary was sinless, and she was sinless because of her faith, then she did not enter heaven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, she did so by her own merit…for she never sinned. And it is sin which prevents us from being with God. A sinless being does not need a sacrifice for sins.

 

[BrianH]

Blessedrosary,
I never said I thought it was referrring just to Eve.
I do think it is referring to women and the human race.
I see nothing that says it points out Mary specifically in verse 15 and women in general in verse 16. I see no reason to make that
distinction.

“I think the answer is not only simple, it is quite obvious too”

and on that very very condescending note…I realize that Blessedrosary is not a person I will converse with. Stick to the facts and do not editoralize about the simplicity or lack of simplicity of an argument
BrianH

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Actually God can create us without sin, and if you disagree with that you are putting God down, not Mary. Because of our lack of faith, we sin, not because of our lack of God’s grace

If Mary was sinless, and she was sinless because of her faith, then she did not enter heaven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, she did so by her own merit…for she never sinned. And it is sin which prevents us from being with God. A sinless being does not need a sacrifice for sins.

As Church Militant indirectly allude to, the merits of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice were applied to her in advance. So Mary did in fact need a savior. And in fact it is the same salvation all the faithful receive–it is simply that the timing of that salvation was unique.

 

[VociMike]

MusicMan:

Here’s the paradox: If God could create Mary without sin, then why can’t He create the rest of us without sin? If he could do it for one of us, why can’t he do it for all?

But surely you acknowledge that God could create any and/or all of us without sin if He chose, don’t you? So I don’t see where the paradox comes in. Now it’s a different matter to ask why God chooses to have us all (Mary excepted) born into sin, but I just don’t see any paradox in this whole issue.

 

[MusicMan]

VociMike:

But surely you acknowledge that God could create any and/or all of us without sin if He chose, don’t you? So I don’t see where the paradox comes in. Now it’s a different matter to ask why God chooses to have us all (Mary excepted) born into sin, but I just don’t see any paradox in this whole issue.

That’s the paradox. If He can create a person without sin, why doesn’t He? If He can make Mary without sin, He didn’t need to sacrifice His son, He just needed to create man sinless. If He can do it for Mary, He can do it for all of us.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

MusicMan:

That’s the paradox. If He can create a person without sin, why doesn’t He? If He can make Mary without sin, He didn’t need to sacrifice His son, He just needed to create man sinless. If He can do it for Mary, He can do it for all of us.

Is it possible that you guys have different ideas of what a paradox is? For me it is something that is contradictory, or at least seems contradictory. We agree that God could have made all of us sinless and not just Mary, but because God did make Mary born without original sin does not require (logically or otherwise) Him to make everyone born without it. It is a special and unique gift. I can certainly conceive of someone asking why He did that, but I don’t see how there is a contradiction.

 

[MusicMan]

Scott Waddell:

Is it possible that you guys have different ideas of what a paradox is? For me it is something that is contradictory, or at least seems contradictory. We agree that God could have made all of us sinless and not just Mary, but because God did make Mary born without original sin does not require (logically or otherwise) Him to make everyone born without it. It is a special and unique gift. I can certainly conceive of someone asking why He did that, but I don’t see how there is a contradiction.

Now we’re on the path to explaining our beliefs to the Protestants who attack them and demand and explaination.

Continue coming up with good justification, folks!

 

[Gnosis]

If God was able to give the merit of salvation to a person in advance, then wouldn’t it make sense that he would do that for everyone before the time of Jesus?

Why create the Law? The Kingdom of Israel? Why offer this very difficult means of salvation, when it was perfectly possible to give everyone the gift of Christ’s salvation before he performed the redeeming act?

 

[blessedrosary]

Actually God can create us without sin, and if you disagree with that you are putting God down, not Mary. Because of our lack of faith, we sin, not because of our lack of God’s grace

If Mary was sinless, and she was sinless because of her faith, then she did not enter heaven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, she did so by her own merit…for she never sinned. And it is sin which prevents us from being with God. A sinless being does not need a sacrifice for sins.

What Protestants fail to realize, is that we Catholics look as the immaculate conception as a GRACE given by God. By no merit of her own did Mary recieve this grace. Of course her faith helped her along the way, the grace of God and his protection to her against Satan is what kept her from sin. Thus she still needed the Savior because it was HIS grace (Jesus Christ). We believe that we need his grace of saving us and makin us pure after we fall. But the grace given to Mary was one that prevented her from falling in the first place. Jesus could have given us all the grace to be pure before we even fall, but he chose to give us a different grace and it is just as powerful and he put just as much love into our grace that he did his Mother’s.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Gnosis:

If God was able to give the merit of salvation to a person in advance, then wouldn’t it make sense that he would do that for everyone before the time of Jesus?

Why create the Law? The Kingdom of Israel? Why offer this very difficult means of salvation, when it was perfectly possible to give everyone the gift of Christ’s salvation before he performed the redeeming act?

Why indeed? One could have taken the original post as suggesting that the IC teaching is easy. But I don’t think that is what he/she meant. (I don’t know the o.p’s gender, sorry) I think it is a hard teaching myself, but nothing so far from the opposition has made me think that it was either impossible, or inherently self-contradictory, or that somehow the rest of us got screwed because Mary got a special gift. (One of the purposes of which to be a worthy vessel for the Incarnation by the way. )

 

[MonicaC]

Gnosis:

If God was able to give the merit of salvation to a person in advance, then wouldn’t it make sense that he would do that for everyone before the time of Jesus?

Why create the Law? The Kingdom of Israel? Why offer this very difficult means of salvation, when it was perfectly possible to give everyone the gift of Christ’s salvation before he performed the redeeming act?

I think that you are forgetting that God did give this merit of salvation to a person inadvance actually a couple of people in advance and they still choose to sin.

Our Lady’s IM conception was not without the grace of free will, she still had that choice but she chose to do only God’s will not her own. Unlike of our first parents.

Our Lady’s IM conception gave us a chance to have eternal salvation as much as it give her the same chance.

And let us not forget that her IM conception is an example of what we were suppose to be like if we ( Our fist parents) had not fallen.