Mary's Intercession?

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pilgrimboy

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I’m a searching Protestant, but I’ve run across a teaching that I just don’t know if I can believe.

It is from this page of a list of dogmas: catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchdocuments/dogmas.cfm

If you know a more accurate or better list of dogmas, I would appreciate it. I want to know what I have to believe in order to join the Catholic church before doing it. I don’t want to be just a nominal Catholic or whatever else I might become. I want to believe in the teachings of the church I am a part of.

Here’s the teaching:
“Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)”

My questions are these:
  1. When we die, do we become omniscient and omnipresent? If yes, please explain. If not, then how does a saint who has passed to the other side have the time to intercede for everything? How do people who have passed to the other side hear (in the case of Mary) every prayer that is lifted up to them?
  2. Is this intercessory co-operation just in a generic sense? I mean that in the sense that she has prayed a generic prayer for all humanity to receive God’s grace rather than she specifically prays for every petition to God.
  3. Do I have to ask for Mary’s intercession in order for this intercession to happen? Can I just focus on praying through Jesus for my prayers to be answered?
  4. Would I need to pray to Mary to be a Catholic in good standing?
There might be more questions, but this is the general gist of why this dogma might prevent me from becoming Catholic. If you have any other insights that might be more of what I need to hear rather than a direct answer to these questions, please share.

Thanks,
Regan
 
👋 I reprinted the words that I think are troubling you?

**Mary’s Co-operation in the Work of the Redeemer **


  1. *]Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)
    *]Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)
    *]Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her co-operation in the Incarnation. (Mediatio in universali.)
    *]Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven. (Mediatio in speciali.)
    *]Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia. (Sent certa.)
    1. No. But through God’s grace, He allows them to hear our prayers. Time has no meaning for those who are with Christ.
    2. I tend to think of it as since Christ was born through Mary, all graces come because she said yes to God. There are some really great ways to get into this, but I tend to stick to the more simple. Mary was the New Eve. By her yes and perfect obeidience, she brought God incarnate into the world. When you look at Mary, you first need to look at the teachings of Christ. Mary can only be understood through the teachings of Christ because all Mary was was because of Christ.
    3. Yes you can just focus on Christ. However, if you ask Mary to pray for you, your focus will become Christ. Mary always points to her Son.
    4. No you would never need to ask Mary to pray for you and still be a Catholic in good standing. But sometime, Christ waits for you to ask for Mary’s prayers before saying yes. (Boy number three only came after I ask for Mary to pray for me to have another child, as a revert, I was not fully comfortable with asking Mary and the Saints to pray for me. I did not understand completely, and did not ask for prayers of the saints until such a time that I could understand with both my heart and my head.)
    Others will be much more eloquent, but this is a start.

    God Bless,
    Maria
 
Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia. (Sent certa.)
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Hyperdulia is not worship or adoration as god. It is the extremely high reverence and respect with which Catholics hold all those who have set us the great examples of faith of the saints and martyrs.

Have a look at Hebrews 12:1 in the context of chapter 11 and you begin to see who that great cloud of witnesses really is. Have you ever seen a “cloud of witnesses” here on earth at a race? They don’t just sit there stoically now do they? Why then would the saints that have already finished their race into the arms of Our Lord not cheer for us and intercede for us as we run our race? Especially a race that has such eternal consequences for other members of the Body of Christ?!!

The Blessed Virgin is no different in that respect, but if you prayerfully read through the Marian passages of the New Testament you begin to get a better idea of the total uniqueness of Mary in all of history. This is NOT (as I saw someone refer to her the other day!) “just another Jewish girl”. She was also the fullfillment of prophecy and much more.

People sometimes say “Why isn’t there more on Mary …or Why didn’t she write anything?” My answer is…She did…Where do ya think the apostles got all the info about Jesus’ birth and childhood in such detail, since they didn’t meet Him until He was 30? Who would have known what the angel said to her and what she treasured in her heart?
Pax tecum, 🙂
 
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pilgrimboy:
Here’s the teaching:
“Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)”
Click to expand...
Actually this is saying basically that Mary is Mediatrix of all graces.

This Dogma, called the fourth Marian Dogma is not defined (yet) however it was always believed in the Church that all graces from God flow through Mary the same as the Biblical story goes of the wedding feast at Cana.

We have hoped Pope John Paul II would have defined this but he did not. So it is not necessary at this time to believe that, however if the Pope should make it official by an infallible proclamation then you must believe it in order to be a Catholic.

The marian dogmas are as follows and you must believe them in order to be a Catholic. Much information exists on this website to further teach you on these issues:
  1. Mary is mother of God - Council of Ephesus 431 AD
  2. Mary was immaculately conceived without sin and remained sinless her entire life. - Pope Pius IX - 1854
  3. Mary, was assumed into heaven body and soul. - Pope Pius XII - 1950.
Ken
 
Regan, your approach is very admirable and God will reward you for it. 🙂

Regarding your questions about the Blessed Mother:

All that comes to us does come through Mary; the Incarnation is key to understanding this. Just as the Son was sent through Mary, now all graces (the life of God bestowed on man) likewise come through her as the Church is the continuation of the Incarnation.

It is because she is Mother of God that she is on a completely different plane from all the rest of the Saints. As Mother of a Divine Person she is in the Hypostatic order, i.e., on the order of having a person to Person relationship that is above the order of all subsequent graces to humans. Thus she is on a plane of intimacy with the Divine Persons simply not accessible to any or all of the other Saints. She has a personal influence with God the Son by reason of being His Mother, and with the Father Who ordained that for her in ordaining that His Son become Man, and to the Holy Spirit Who becomes her Spouse in bringing about the Incarnation of the Son from her flesh; these person to Person relationships no one else can have. She is on a plane above all other vocations (that’s why she is Queen of Apostles and Mother of Priests). This is why the Church teaches that we are to give her hyperdulia in honoring her, i.e, beyond the Saints, though below God (Latria).

This is why God willed that she cooperate for all (universally) at the same time and in union with her Son’s accomplishing our redemption.

Regarding the Saints’ ability to know our prayers, intercession while living on earth depends on being in Christ, in a state of grace which sanctifies the soul, thus allowing the person to ask God something for someone else. But in Heaven, the person has the Beatific Vision of God and is united to Him “face to face” and “knows as he is known” and in a greater position to ask for someone else (since he does not need anything for himself). Therefore, to ask in Christ one of the Blessed to intercede for us is simply communicated to that someone by Christ since there is no other way that person could know what is going on down here except by being shown by Christ.

So in the Beatific Vision Christ, within Whom the Blessed are more - not less - in union, shows the Blessed the petitions of the brethren on earth, as in God all things are seen since God is All in all. This is not difficult for God to do. Thus we can know with absolute certainty that the Saints know the petitions addressed to them in Christ, a fortiori the Blessed Mother, who is the Mother of the whole Christ, the Head, and spiritually of the Body of the Faithful. We know this from the activity of the Church asking the Holy Mother constantly to intercede.

I think one of the difficulties we have in attempting to share our appreciation of the Blessed Mother as our Mother (and of other doctrines of the Faith), is that we of necessity have to speak (and write) of things according to our linear-time understanding in trying to speak of God’s Presence (the Eternal Now). So all the talk of Mary approaching God in supplication at once puts some time-frame separation between God and Mary (and all who live now fully in His Presence) when, to the contrary, such is her union of intimacy with the Divine Trinity that there is no “space” between her prayer for us and God’s “awareness” of this.
 
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FCEGM:
I think one of the difficulties we have in attempting to share our appreciation of the Blessed Mother as our Mother (and of other doctrines of the Faith), is that we of necessity have to speak (and write) of things according to our linear-time understanding in trying to speak of God’s Presence (the Eternal Now). So all the talk of Mary approaching God in supplication at once puts some time-frame separation between God and Mary (and all who live now fully in His Presence) when, to the contrary, such is her union of intimacy with the Divine Trinity that there is no “space” between her prayer for us and God’s “awareness” of this.
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:clapping: Nicely said. I’ll have to remember this. I especially like the no “space” part along with the intimacy. An intimacy we can only catch glimpses of.

God Bless,
Maria
 
This is something that I to struggle with.
I was reading from Catholicism and Fundamentlism last night and this is the subject of which I was stumbling through.

I really have a hard time with not being able to receive grace from God without Mary.
I just dont get that.
I can see,and agree, that Mary is the new Eve.

That through Eve sin came into this world and that through Mary the savior came into this world.

Does this mean that Adam was the Earthly Father of us and Eve the Earthly mother?

Does it also mean, that we should revile them for chooseing to sin? Just as we adore Mary for chooseing not to?
Weren’t Adam and Eve special because God breathed on them?

I am trying to understand this, so I hope I am not being rude.
 
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allisonP:
I really have a hard time with not being able to receive grace from God without Mary.
I just dont get that.

I think it’s the perspective here that is the problem. We are certainly ABLE to recieve grace from God without Mary! To say otherwise is to limit God. He can do whatever he chooses. Now. . .having said that, God chose Mary from all eternity to fill with His grace to bring forth the source and summit of all grace, Jesus Christ. It is only through and because of God’s Almighty Providence and Perrogative that Mary has been given the gift of being the vessel through which all grace reaches us. She, unlike any other creature, examplifies and fulfills St. Peter’s observation that we are “generous distributors of God’s manifold grace. . .each in the measure he has recieved” (1 Peter 4:10). The understanding and teaching of the Church isn’t that God’s grace CAN NOT reach us apart from Mary, but rather that it DOES NOT. This is the tangent to our understanding of the Incarnation itself. It is not that God was not ABLE to come into this world without her, it is that God DID NOT come into the world without her.

Does this mean that Adam was the Earthly Father of us and Eve the Earthly mother?

In a way, you are absolutely correct. They are our first parents. It is through them that we recieve our fallen natures afflicted by Original Sin.

Does it also mean, that we should revile them for chooseing to sin?

We, as Christians, do not revile another human being for their sin. We revile the sin. We do not know the extent of God’s mercy. It is beyond our comprehension. And so, we no more look upon Adam and Eve with disdain than we would any other fallen creature.

Just as we adore Mary for chooseing not to?

To be clear, if one is to say that we “adore” Mary it is only in a very secondary sense to our Adoration of our God. It is not “wrong” to say that we adore her in the same way it is not “wrong” for me to say how much I “adore” my children, but there is some language confusion that I think must be clarified for the terminology to work.

NOW, we absolutley honor her for her choice to obey God’s will in a way that we do not honor Eve for her choice. And we constantly acknowledge and emphasize the abundance of God’s grace in Mary’s freely chosen cooperation in His saving mission. For we know, even in the case of the Blessed Mother (or perhaps, most evidently in her case), that “it is God who, in his good will towards [us], begets in [us] any measure of desire or achievement.” Mary is the very first to refect all the glory and honor given her directly to her Lord and Savior (Luke 1:46-55).

Weren’t Adam and Eve special because God breathed on them?

Oh, certainly! Adam and Eve are special for that very reason. They, like us, in spite of sin are made in the image and likeness of God!

I am trying to understand this, so I hope I am not being rude.
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Your questions are very good. . .no rudeness detected here! 😉
 
I really have a hard time with not being able to receive grace from God without Mary.
I just dont get that.
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Let me try an example. Say you see 10 needy families receive on Christmas a new house, health insurance for the entire family (and children to come) and an annual income of $200,000 per family member. Assuming you have no financial worries whatsoever (and you yourself were extremely generous) wouldn’t that make you feel good? Now, wouldn’t it make you feel even better if you yourself could give those needy families those things?

Now, I’m sure it makes Mary very happy to see her children receive grace and grow closer to God. However, she herself (although full of grace)is not the source of grace and cannot of herself give grace. So God, out of love for His mother channels grace through her to His people.

I hope you sort of get the idea. It’s hard to explain spiritual things using our limited senses. The basic answer of why God channels all graces through His mother seems to be this: Because He loves her. I think most Christians could agree on that point.
 
Hi pilgrimboy -

Welcome to the forums and may your spiritual journey take you to the truth,
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pilgrimboy:
I’m a searching Protestant, but I’ve run across a teaching that I just don’t know if I can believe.
Click to expand...
You have just run into the fundimental protestant paradox (Huh?) What you just said about Catholic beliefs that are hard to believe is why protestantism exist in the first place. It is good that you seek explanations.
If you know a more accurate or better list of dogmas, I would appreciate it. I want to know what I have to believe in order to join the Catholic church before doing it. I don’t want to be just a nominal Catholic or whatever else I might become. I want to believe in the teachings of the church I am a part of.
Click to expand...
Here is a complete list of Catholic dogmas…usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm
Here’s the teaching:
“Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)”
Click to expand...
Mary, the mother of all Christianity is the primary intercessor in heaven. The faith of this comes from faith in the Magesterium of the church which, by it’s turn, get’s it’s authority from Christ.

My questions are these:
  1. When we die, do we become omniscient and omnipresent? If yes, please explain. If not, then how does a saint who has passed to the other side have the time to intercede for everything? How do people who have passed to the other side hear (in the case of Mary) every prayer that is lifted up to them?
Click to expand...
Time as we know it is transcended. Saints don’t need the time because time for them does not exist as we know it. This is proven by the gospel’s account of Jesus after His rising. Jesus walked through doors, suddenly appeared in places, was at times in more than one place at the same time. During Holy Communion, Jesus body and blood exist in each host of bread and cup of wine -IN THIER ENTIRETY! This is known as bilocation. Each time we take Holy Communion we share in the sacrifice that Christ made for us on the cross. There is only one sacrifice and it happens only one time.
  1. Is this intercessory co-operation just in a generic sense? I mean that in the sense that she has prayed a generic prayer for all humanity to receive God’s grace rather than she specifically prays for every petition to God.
Click to expand...
Each petition is heard and responded to.
  1. Do I have to ask for Mary’s intercession in order for this intercession to happen? Can I just focus on praying through Jesus for my prayers to be answered?
Click to expand...
Each intercession must be asked for. But we need not ask only Mary. All saints in heaven can be petitioned. If you pray the “Hail Mary,” you will know this.
  1. Would I need to pray to Mary to be a Catholic in good standing?
Click to expand...
Yes. this practice has it’s origin with the Apostles, i believe John specifically.
There might be more questions, but this is the general gist of why this dogma might prevent me from becoming Catholic. If you have any other insights that might be more of what I need to hear rather than a direct answer to these questions, please share
Click to expand...
Something that you need to know about Mary is her relationship with Christ, her son. From the Catechism…
970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.” “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”
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Thanks,
Regan
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You’re welcome. And Merry Christmas to you and your family,
Subrosa
 
Subrosa,

Catholics are not required to ask Mary for prayer. We are encouraged but it is not a requirement to be a Catholic in good standing. We don’t have to ask anyone to pray for us, but we are encouraged to do so.

God Bless,

Maria
 
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