Mary's other Children !?

[twinc]

If,as suggested by some,Mary had other children then it seems shr had not told them about or convinced them that unlike them Jesus was special.They thought He was insane and tried to restrain Him.In attempting to do this they were presumably older than Him so HE would not be the first born - any comments - twinc

 

[thistle]

If,as suggested by some,Mary had other children then it seems shr had not told them about or convinced them that unlike them Jesus was special.They thought He was insane and tried to restrain Him.In attempting to do this they were presumably older than Him so HE would not be the first born - any comments - twinc

Mary did NOT have any children apart from Jesus. She was ever virgin which is a teaching of the Church which you are bound to believe otherwise it would be a grave sin.
ALL Catholics must believe this so I don’t understand why a Catholic would ask such a question.

 

[twinc]

Mary did NOT have any children apart from Jesus. She was ever virgin which is a teaching of the Church which you are bound to believe otherwise it would be a grave sin.
ALL Catholics must believe this so I don’t understand why a Catholic would ask such a question.

well then supposedly her sister Mary didnt know or had not told and explained it to her children - twinc

 

[Don9of11]

As was stated by the other poster, Mary, Our Blessed Mother did not have any other children except for Jesus. As to Mary’s sister (or sister-in-law?) - Mary wife of Clopas she was the mother of James the Less and Joseph (Joses). Mark 15:40;

 

[twinc]

As was stated by the other poster, Mary, Our Blessed Mother did not have any other children except for Jesus. As to Mary’s sister (or sister-in-law?) - Mary wife of Clopas she was the mother of James the Less and Joseph (Joses). Mark 15:40;

There were four Mary’s stood by the cross and one was BVM’s sister[Jn.19:25] - twinc

 

[Danno2281]

There were four Mary’s stood by the cross and one was BVM’s sister[Jn.19:25] - twinc

Speculation about these relationships is just that - speculation. We do not know and we do not need to know. We know that Mary described herself as God’s slave girl (Gr: doule) and if we look at Exodus 21: 7ff we will see why the angel assuires Mary that her Master finds her favorable. She remains the slave girl whose reproductive faculties are in the hands of her Master, and she does not intend to “know man” when she has God for her Master.

 

[grace_singh]

well… it is true that the Catholic Church does teach the perpetual virginity of Mary, but there are references in the Scripture to Jesus’ brothers and sisters, some of whom travel with Mary to visit Jesus during His ministry (Matthew 12:46, Mark 6:3, John 2:12)

it can be argued that these brothers and sisters were actually cousins, or children of Joseph from a previous marriage. while Mary was certainly a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, there is no Scriptural indication that she remained a virgin for the rest of her life, though this is taught as doctrinally and historically the case by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

 

[adriancombe]

well… it is true that the Catholic Church does teach the perpetual virginity of Mary, but there are references in the Scripture to Jesus’ brothers and sisters, some of whom travel with Mary to visit Jesus during His ministry (Matthew 12:46, Mark 6:3, John 2:12)

it can be argued that these brothers and sisters were actually cousins, or children of Joseph from a previous marriage. while Mary was certainly a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, there is no Scriptural indication that she remained a virgin for the rest of her life, though this is taught as doctrinally and historically the case by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Randy Carson has posted a succinct yet ironclad analysis of the relevant Scripture passages proving that these brothers were not Blessed Mary’s biological children. It can be found here.

 

[thistle]

There were four Mary’s stood by the cross and one was BVM’s sister[Jn.19:25] - twinc

There were THREE Mary’s. “his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas” is one Mary. It is saying that Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of Jesus’ mother.

You still haven’t answered my earlier question. You state you are Catholic. If that is true then you know you are bound to accept the perpetual viginity of Mary otherwise that is heresy and would mean you are in a state of mortal sin. I ask again. Why are you, a Catholic, asking such a question.

 

[JP_Marat]

Mary did NOT have any children apart from Jesus. She was ever virgin which is a teaching of the Church which you are bound to believe otherwise it would be a grave sin.
ALL **Catholics must believe this **so I don’t understand why a Catholic would ask such a question.

RESPONSE:

Maybe its because she had other children? Several versions of Matthew 1:25:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“…but kept her a **virgin until **she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”

New American Bible
“He had **no relations with her until **she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.”

New Revised Standard Version
“… but had **no marital relations with her until *she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.”

But then Joseph and Mary, as observant Jews, could be expected to fulfill the scriptural command given in Genesis to increase and multiply.

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary* and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?’” (NRSV)

 

[JP_Marat]

There were THREE Mary’s. “his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas” is one Mary. It is saying that Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of Jesus’ mother.

You still haven’t answered my earlier question. You state you are Catholic. If that is true then you know you are bound to accept the perpetual viginity of Mary otherwise that is heresy and would mean you are in a state of mortal sin. I ask again. Why are you, a Catholic, asking such a question.

RESPONSE:

Because the clear preponderance of the evidence shows that Jesus was not an only child.

As I answered earlier. If Mary the wife of Clopas is Mary’s sister, that would mean there were two daughters named Mary in the same family. No, if Mary had a sister, it’s much more reasonable that she is the Salmone mentioned in similar passages.

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary* and **brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters **here with us?’” (NRSV)

It is not a “mortal sin” to reject errors in the Church’s interpretation of scripture. Such as:

“…by command of His Holiness and of the Most Eminent Lords Cardinals of this supreme and universal Inquisition, the two propositions of the stability of the Sun and the motion of the Earth were by the theological Qualifiers qualified as follows:”

"The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture. "

"The proposition that **the Earth **is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith. "

Do you belief that?

However, the “mortal sin if you don’t believe” ploy keeps many gullible Catholics gullible.

And you haven’t answered, when do we first find the claim of the “perpetual virginity of Mary”? Can you find it earlier than the 4th century?

Before that Jesus had brothers and sisters. But then Jerome, using very poor arguments, changed them into cousins because he didn’t like sex.

 

[panevino]

RESPONSE:

Because the clear preponderance of the evidence shows that Jesus was not an only child.

As I answered earlier. If Mary the wife of Clopas is Mary’s sister, that would mean there were two daughters named Mary in the same family. No, if Mary had a sister, it’s much more reasonable that she is the Salmone mentioned in similar passages…

not saying this solves it but I did notice that in matthew and luke
the two mary’s have a subtle difference in name

Matthrew - MOJ (Mariam)13:55 , other Mary (Maria)27:56
Luke - MOJ( Mariam) 1:27, other Mary (Maria) 24:10

anyone know more about greek. - is there a grammatical reason for the difference or are these examples of different names.

beside above I also saw someone write that mary wife of clopas could be a sister inlaw of BVM which may also remove concern about same name… need to dig more

…Before that Jesus had brothers and sisters. But then Jerome, using very poor arguments, changed them into cousins because he didn’t like sex.

come on, thats a bit much ‘didn’t like sex’… do u have something to back that up.

my opinion is that perpetual virginity has nothing to do with "EVIL sex’ but a parrallel with the holy of holies of the OT and only high priest/god allowed within.

once I learnt about this and learned that Joseph knew about the pregancy being of god, i thought it completely reasonable that there is no way a humble jewish man would contemplate the thought of going anyware near the womb.
and then theres the whole idea of a humble jewish man sleeping with a woman that was made pregnant by God… to me… i dont see it happening… particularly when you consider how devout these particular two people were.
nothing to do with evil sex - but all to do with divinity of god & the implications of this on the relationship of joseph & mary

 

[Danno2281]

RESPONSE:

Because the clear preponderance of the evidence shows that Jesus was not an only child.

As I answered earlier. If Mary the wife of Clopas is Mary’s sister, that would mean there were two daughters named Mary in the same family. No, if Mary had a sister, it’s much more reasonable that she is the Salmone mentioned in similar passages.

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary* and **brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters **here with us?’” (NRSV)

It is not a “mortal sin” to reject errors in the Church’s interpretation of scripture. Such as:

“…by command of His Holiness and of the Most Eminent Lords Cardinals of this supreme and universal Inquisition, the two propositions of the stability of the Sun and the motion of the Earth were by the theological Qualifiers qualified as follows:”

"The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture. "

"The proposition that **the Earth **is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith. "

Do you belief that?

However, the “mortal sin if you don’t believe” ploy keeps many gullible Catholics gullible.

And you haven’t answered, when do we first find the claim of the “perpetual virginity of Mary”? Can you find it earlier than the 4th century?

Before that Jesus had brothers and sisters. But then Jerome, using very poor arguments, changed them into cousins because he didn’t like sex.

First of all, there is no scripture that says that Mary was the mother of anyone other than Jesus. Mary herself makes it clear that she had no intention to have sexual relations even tho’ betrothed, or else her statement to the angel makes no sense. Why would a woman, about to be married, be surprised a the news that she was going to have a child unless something else precluded that from happening. “Yes, lots of them, God willing,” would be a far more understandable response, unless her “I do not know man” encompassed a lifestyle, much like “I do not smoke.”
If Mary had other children, Jesus could not have given her to the care of St. John from the cross - it would have been both the duty and privelege of those other children to care for her by virtue of the commandment to honor father and mother, a commandment that Jesus defended against the practice of declaring support for aging parent corban. He would not Himself have tried to circumvent that commandmant.
The Hebrews writing Greek appear to have used Greek terms with a Hebrew mindset, so in the Greek Septuagint the word adelphos has a wider meaning than in native Greek because it is a translation of the other tongue; specifically, Abraham refers to Lot, his brother’s son, as his brother, when they were in fact uncle and nephew (Gen.13:8). Hope this helps…

 

[twinc]

Mary did NOT have any children apart from Jesus. She was ever virgin which is a teaching of the Church which you are bound to believe otherwise it would be a grave sin.
ALL Catholics must believe this so I don’t understand why a Catholic would ask such a question.

Thistle - you must read my questions and answers more carefully and prayerfully before coming to false conclusions - the question is followed by an exclamation and question mark and states "if as suggested by some[not by me]then…twinc

 

[JP_Marat]

Panevino posted:

…Before that Jesus had brothers and sisters. But then Jerome, using very poor arguments, changed them into cousins because he didn’t like sex.

come on, thats a bit much ‘didn’t like sex’… do u have something to back that up.<<

RESPONSE:

Sure. Perhaps you should read his writings. For example, St Jerome (c. 320-420):
On Marriage and Virginity, From Letter XXII to Eustochium and from the treatise Against Jovinian

“Some one may say, “Do you dare detract from wedlock, which is a state blessed by God?” I do not detract from wedlock when I set virginity before it. No one compares a bad thing with a good. Wedded women may congratulate themselves that they come next to virgins……I praise wedlock, I praise marriage, but it is** because they give me [more]virgins**….But I say to the Unmarried and to widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I……If it is good not to touch a woman, it is bad to touch one: for there is no opposite to goodness but badness.”

my opinion is that perpetual virginity has nothing to do with "EVIL sex’ but a parrallel with the holy of holies of the OT and only high priest/god allowed within.<<

once I learnt about this and learned that Joseph knew about the pregancy being of god, i thought it completely reasonable that there is no way a humble jewish man would contemplate the thought of going anyware near the womb.

and then theres the whole idea of a humble jewish man sleeping with a woman that was made pregnant by God… to me… i dont see it happening… particularly when you consider how devout these particular two people were.
nothing to do with evil sex - but all to do with divinity of god & the implications of this on the relationship of joseph & mary<<

RESPONSE:

NASB Matt 1:25 “.but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.”

Jesus was the firstborn (thus the first child of Mary ).

Douay Rheims Bible Gen 9:7 “But increase you and multiply, and go upon the earth, and fill it.” And observant Jews like Joseph and Mary would be expected to do just that.

 

[JP_Marat]

Danno 2281 posted:

First of all, there is no scripture that says that Mary was the mother of anyone other than Jesus.<<

RESPONSE:

Are you serious?

Mark 3:32 “A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.”

Mark 6:3 “Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.”

And if it be claimed that these were only “cousins,” look how ridiculous this becomes:

Mark 3:32-35
A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your cousins are outside asking for you.” But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and my cousins?” And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and cousins. For whoever does the will of God is my cousin and mother.”

 

[mangy_dog]

It never ceases to amaze me how unknown Mary is to so many pseudo-catholics; seared with the brand of the new-age.

The Immaculate, Perpetual Virgin, Mother of God is the Ark of the New Covenant.

Was the original Ark of the Covenant used for dirty laundry after it was used for the place where God met His people.???

Why would God prepare Mary’s virginal womb by preserving her from the stain, effects and consequences of original sin to later offer her womb to…I can’t even finish this sentence.

All I can do is pray for all you poor, miserable souls obssessed with the carnality of your thoughts.

 

[JP_Marat]

Danno 2281 posted:

If Mary had other children, Jesus could not have given her to the care of St. John from the cross<<

RESPONSE:

This is a very old argument originating – you guessed it – with St. Jerome too. Against Helvidius, 14“…when the Lord upon the cross commended her, as His mother and now a widow, to the care of John.”

Lets take a closer look at what really is really being said here:

John 19:26-27:
“When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (Greek: “idia”)

So:

1. First of all, the original passage refers to the disciple that Jesus loved. Nowhere does it say “John.” Lazarus has been suggested as a strong possibility.
2. Matthew 26:56 “Then all the disciples left him and fled.” This would have included John.

3 The **“into his home” is a mistranslation **of the Greek term “idia” From the Greek original, we find that “idia (idios) doesn’t mean “his home.” It means instead “pertaining to one’s self, one’s own, belonging to one’s self”. So, Jesus is taking the “disciple” into his family. A nice gesture.

1. John’s “home” was** in Galilee, not Jerusalem**. Since Galilee was a 2 -3 day journey from Jerusalem, the “from that hour” (ie from that time) part cannot refer to John’s “home.”

But some people as still sticking with this argument, Jerome’s “proof” , that Mary didn’t have other children besides Jesus.

 

[JP_Marat]

It never ceases to amaze me how unknown Mary is to so many pseudo-catholics; seared with the brand of the new-age.

The Immaculate, Perpetual Virgin, Mother of God is the Ark of the New Covenant.

Was the original Ark of the Covenant used for dirty laundry after it was used for the place where God met His people.???

Why would God prepare Mary’s virginal womb by preserving her from the stain, effects and consequences of original sin to later offer her womb to…I can’t even finish this sentence.

All I can do is pray for all you poor, miserable souls obssessed with the carnality of your thoughts.

RESPONSE:

Some of us are reality oriented.

1. “Immaculate” This presupposes (1) the existence of original sin, but (2) Mary not having “the stain” of original sin.
2. “Perpetual Virgin” Not if Mary had other children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus as the Gospels, Epistles, Acts of the Apostles, and Josephus (Jewish historian of this period) tell us.
3. Sex isn’t “dirty.” That’s only an Old Catholic view.
4. Again, the Jewish people were told by God to increase and multiply. If Joseph and Mary **refused to produce more children “after” Jesus, they were violating **that command.
5. “many pseudo-catholics; seared with the brand of the new-age.” Yep. Some of us don’t believe in Santa Claus either.

 

[mangy_dog]

RESPONSE:

Some of us are reality oriented.

1. “Immaculate” This presupposes (1) the existence of original sin, but (2) Mary not having “the stain” of original sin.
2. “Perpetual Virgin” Not if Mary had other children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus as the Gospels, Epistles, Acts of the Apostles, and Josephus (Jewish historian of this period) tell us.
3. Sex isn’t “dirty.” That’s only an Old Catholic view.
4. Again, the Jewish people were told by God to increase and multiply. If Joseph and Mary **refused to produce more children “after” Jesus, they were violating **that command.
5. “many pseudo-catholics; seared with the brand of the new-age.” Yep. Some of us don’t believe in Santa Claus either.

…"[pearls to the pigs…] [sacred things to the dogs…] not from me.

Keep your “reality orientation”…