Mary's Parents

[SouthernSister]

I need help handling an objection!

If Mary was Immaculately conceived in order to provide a perfect Ark in which to carry Jesus, then why not her own mother?

I look forward to your replies!

Thanks. SouthernSister

 

[Franciscan]

I think you’re asking why was Mary’s mother not considered an Ark. Right?

Well, Mary’s mother, tradition tells us, was a Saint (St. Anne). but unlike Mary she was not Immaculately Conceived.

Mary was “An Ark” because of what she contained in her womb. She like the Ark of Old held the Living Manna, The true High Priest, and the actual Word of God Incarnate- similar to what the Ark contained-jar of manna, staff of high priest, and the Ten Commandments (word of God).

 

[LilyM]

I think she’s asking why Mary’s mother wasn’t Immaculately Conceived as well.

That would be because Mary’s mother wasn’t chosen among all women to bear and raise God made Man is why

 

[SouthernSister]

I think she’s asking why Mary’s mother wasn’t Immaculately Conceived as well.

That would be because Mary’s mother wasn’t chosen among all women to bear and raise God made Man is why

Yes, this is what I’m asking and I understand that Anne wasn’t chosen but Mary was.

But the objection that I’m hearing is that in order for Mary to be Immaculately Conceived, wouldn’t SHE need to have been born from someone who was sin-free as well?

SouthernSister

 

[SMHW]

If Mary was Immaculately conceived in order to provide a perfect Ark in which to carry Jesus, then why not her own mother?

The simple response would be because there was no reason for Mary’s mother to be immaculately conceived. God allowed Mary to experience the redemptive power of Christ’s death and resurrection at the time of her conception and that was sufficient.

If there was such a reason then we really shouldn’t stop at Mary’s mother. We’d expect her father, maternal grandmother, maternal grandfather, paternal grandmother, paternal grandfather, etc, etc.to be immaculately conceived.

 

[SouthernSister]

Yes, this is what I’m asking and I understand that Anne wasn’t chosen but Mary was.

But the objection that I’m hearing is that in order for Mary to be Immaculately Conceived, wouldn’t SHE need to have been born from someone who was sin-free as well?

SouthernSister

Just another comment/question:

Jesus received His humanity from Mary, right? How could He not receive Original Sin from her – unless she was Immaculate.

But the problem I’m running into with this is – if that’s the case, then how could Mary have not received Original Sin, if she was born of a sinful Mother, Anne?

I hope this is making the nature of the objection more clear!

SouthernSister

 

[SMHW]

Jesus received His humanity from Mary, right? How could He not receive Original Sin from her – unless she was Immaculate.

I don’t know that this is the case. It was fitting that Mary be an unstained ark. And since she was conceived without original sin her fiat was not subject to the effects of sin.

But the problem I’m running into with this is – if that’s the case, then how could Mary have not received Original Sin, if she was born of a sinful Mother, Anne?

The point is that God had to step in somewhere or else ALL of Jesus’ ancestors would have to be immaculately conceived.

 

[Fidelis]

But the problem I’m running into with this is – if that’s the case, then how could Mary have not received Original Sin, if she was born of a sinful Mother, Anne?

It may help to read the wording from the official text by the Pope who defined this doctrine:

“Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, *ancient indeed *is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul’s infusion into the body, was, by a special grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer of the human race, preserved free from all stain of original sin. And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the Conception.”

In fact, it may help you to read the whole document which discusses the history, biblical and thological background, and rationale:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

 

[SouthernSister]

It may help to read the wording from the official text by the Pope who defined this doctrine:
In fact, it may help you to read the whole document which discusses the history, biblical and thological background, and rationale:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

thanks! This WILL be helpful!

SouthernSister

 

[Zooey]

Yes, this is what I’m asking and I understand that Anne wasn’t chosen but Mary was.

But the objection that I’m hearing is that in order for Mary to be Immaculately Conceived, wouldn’t SHE need to have been born from someone who was sin-free as well?

SouthernSister

I think that from what I understand…(much of which I have learned here!), that Mary didn’t** have** to be Immaculately Conceived, but that it was** appropriate** that she should be Immaculately Conceived.
As someone said, God had to step in at some point; this is the way He did it.
That makes sense to me. I hope it does the same for someone else!

 

[lak611]

I think that from what I understand…(much of which I have learned here!), that Mary didn’t** have to be Immaculately Conceived, but that it was appropriate** that she should be Immaculately Conceived.
As someone said, God had to step in at some point; this is the way He did it.
That makes sense to me. I hope it does the same for someone else!

Yes, this does make sense! :clapping:

 

[SouthernSister]

I think that from what I understand…(much of which I have learned here!), that Mary didn’t** have to be Immaculately Conceived, but that it was appropriate** that she should be Immaculately Conceived.
As someone said, God had to step in at some point; this is the way He did it.
That makes sense to me. I hope it does the same for someone else!

Thanks so much! But I have another question!

Didn’t Mary HAVE to be Immaculately Conceived in order for the Jews to understand and accept her as the Ark of the New Covenenant?

SouthernSister

 

[SouthernSister]

It may help to read the wording from the official text by the Pope who defined this doctrine:
In fact, it may help you to read the whole document which discusses the history, biblical and thological background, and rationale:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

I have a new question! Can anyone tell me what was happening historically in the Church that would cause the Pope to publish this Encyclical on the Immaculate Conception at this time in history?

Thanks in advance,

SouthernSister

 

[mercygate]

I think that from what I understand…(much of which I have learned here!), that Mary didn’t** have to be Immaculately Conceived, but that it was appropriate** that she should be Immaculately Conceived.
As someone said, God had to step in at some point; this is the way He did it.
That makes sense to me. I hope it does the same for someone else!

There ya go! One of those know-it-all Protestants correctly explicating Catholic teaching to the natives!

Good work (as always, Zooey). You remind me of myself before I came into the Catholic Church – always explaining Catholic dogma to the disgruntled Catholics. Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Confession, transubstantiation, contraception, abortion . . . .

Keep it up!

 

[Fidelis]

Didn’t Mary HAVE to be Immaculately Conceived in order for the Jews to understand and accept her as the Ark of the New Covenenant?

I don’t think that the Jews themselves would have been interested in the comparison, but, based on the scriptural evidence (the parallels between 2 Samuel 6/Luke 1, and Revelation 11-12), it was certainly important for the early Jewish Christians!

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5sb1.asp

 

[Fidelis]

I have a new question! Can anyone tell me what was happening historically in the Church that would cause the Pope to publish this Encyclical on the Immaculate Conception at this time in history?

Thanks in advance,

SouthernSister

Here is a brief explanation:

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. **The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her. **
catholic.com/library/immaculate_conception_and_assum.asp

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I hope this helps

…
If Mary was Immaculately conceived in order to provide a perfect Ark in which to carry Jesus, then why not her own mother?..

There was no need for such

…But the objection that I’m hearing is that in order for Mary to be Immaculately Conceived, wouldn’t SHE need to have been born from someone who was sin-free as well?..

This is not correct. God could make anyone free of sin

…But the problem I’m running into with this is – if that’s the case, then how could Mary have not received Original Sin, if she was born of a sinful Mother, Anne?..

The church teaches the Holy Spirit cleansed Mary’s soul before Mary recieved a soul

…
Didn’t Mary HAVE to be Immaculately Conceived in order for the Jews to understand and accept her as the Ark of the New Covenenant?..

No, most Jews did not believe in the IC, or Mary as the Ark until after Jesus’ death at which point it did not matter

I have a new question! Can anyone tell me what was happening historically in the Church that would cause the Pope to publish this Encyclical on the Immaculate Conception at this time in history?..

see below

Mary did not have to be born in a state of grace yet she was. Had she not been born in a state of grace God would have cleansed her egg before Jesus was formed. So no affect on Jesus. But the difference on Mary would have been dramatic, see Mary had to endure:

• an unwed pregnancy-
• a marriage absence of normal relations with Joseph
• fleeing for her life in the middle of the night
• watching the Pharisees oppose and attempt entrap her son
• watching her son handed over by his follower, arrested, tried, convicted, denied by his followers, denied pardon from the crowd, and crucified
• abandoned with no family
  I think God cleansed Mary to reduce her suffering. As a person in a state of grace, the normal obsessing, stress, self pity, etc would not have been present in Mary. I think that is why Mary was cleansed.

Part #2
from year 30-1500 all Christian teaching was reasonable uniform on Mary. From years 1500- 1700 Protestant growth was minor and not significantly different from fundamental Catholism, as Protestantism grow and separated especially on Mary the Popes intervened to clearify for Catholics.