Mary's perpertual Viriginity, why does it matter?

[mark_a]

I wonder if they were not big on Mary having other children because then the brothers and sisters would share a common mother with Jesus.

Therefore, those siblings could claim they are half brothers and sisters of Christ.

And do I hear all the conspiricy theorists sit up

Or thats the reason they were called cousins, and anyway they rejected Jesus anyhow so even so, they were not thrilled to have Him as family. So, if they didnt want Him then, the descendents cant have Him now.

or is this talking about the elephant in the room??

The Orthodox, Muslims, original reformers, and Catholics all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. What reason could be good enough to change this tradition?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

The Orthodox, Muslims, original reformers, and Catholics all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. What reason could be good enough to change this tradition?

If the news announces each day that Oprah is our new spiritual leader and all the stations agree. Are you going to believe it?

Why do they believe it? and you also avoid my question.

It probably is the elephant in the room.

 

[First_Love]

Note: I am anwering because I saw a question to non-catholics. I just wanted to tell you my view. I’m not trying to offend or argue, just tell what I believe.

Romans 3:22-24 says “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

I believe that it is important that Mary WAS a sinner. The verse above states that ALL have sinned…it doesn’t say “except for Mary.” All humans have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. God chose a woman who had been born into sin as everyone in the world has. Yes, she was righteous and obedient to God and should be honored, but I don’t believe that she never sinned in her life.

As far as being a virgin, she definitely was a virgin before Jesus was born. I don’t believe that this would be necessary afterwards. The Bible says that Joseph did not sleep with her “until” Jesus was born…I know the Catholic view on this verse, but this is just my belief (I’m not Catholic so I thought I’d answer).

Since God is all powerful, couldn’t he work through a young woman born into sin who was obedinent to is plan???

 

[Delphinus85]

I believe that it is important that Mary WAS a sinner. The verse above states that ALL have sinned…it doesn’t say “except for Mary.”

It also doesn’t say “except for christ”

 

[Delphinus85]

Suppose the Church had taught from the beginning that Mary did have other children, would it matter if some Johnny-come-lately taught she were a perpetual virgin?

Since the church who originally taught on this doctrine were the apostles, we’d take what they said. And since they said she was a Virgin, it’s their opinion we will trust.

 

[uglygal]

I don’t think its matters. Mary is just as holy and pure whether she had relations or not. To have relations within marriage is not sinful, impure or dirty - it isn’t. But I think she did remain a virgin forever - if I found out I was going to give birth and have for a son the very Son of God, I wouldn’t have nor want other kids after Him. I think its a very beautiful belief to believe Mary was ever a virgin - and even if she wasn’t, her heart and soul was ever virginal and pure thus she is the blessed virgin forever. I don’t think her virginity or lack of either adds nor detracts to how blessed she is. Personally I think its a filthy load of ‘gossip’ that only those with dirty minds would ponder or raise - such relations between a husband and wife are personal and no-one else’s business. That’s my opinion.

 

[FCEGM]

I don’t think its matters. Mary is just as holy and pure whether she had relations or not. To have relations within marriage is not sinful, impure or dirty - it isn’t. But I think she did remain a virgin forever - if I found out I was going to give birth and have for a son the very Son of God, I wouldn’t have nor want other kids after Him. I think its a very beautiful belief to believe Mary was ever a virgin - and even if she wasn’t, her heart and soul was ever virginal and pure thus she is the blessed virgin forever. I don’t think her virginity or lack of either adds nor detracts to how blessed she is. Personally I think its a filthy load of ‘gossip’ that only those with dirty minds would ponder or raise - such relations between a husband and wife are personal and no-one else’s business. That’s my opinion.

Gal, this article gives some good insight:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a82.htm

. . .the virginal birth of Christ points to a miraculous conception (that His Father by Nature is God, not man) by the Holy Spirit (indicating the Trinity of Divine Persons); that Mary had no more children is just one indication that Christ Jesus is different in some essential way from all other humans. If she had had other children there would be absolutely no reason to think Jesus was any different from those siblings in His origin, i.e., that He was God the Son become Man. Thus the Perpetual Virginity safeguards the specialness of Jesus as born miraculously, which safeguards His special conception, which manifests His Eternal Pre-Existence. So there IS a “logic” to the Incarnation of God as Man.

So, it’s more about Jesus than Mary.

 

[mark_a]

If the news announces each day that Oprah is our new spiritual leader and all the stations agree. Are you going to believe it?

There was a time when maybe I would have.

and you also avoid my question.

It probably is the elephant in the room.

I didn’t avoid it, I just didn’t understand it.

 

[SIA]

Okay, so I know the thread title seems heretical, but it’s not, I promise!!

I was following a discussion on another thread about Mary’s perpetual viriginity, and like everything else on here, it got pretty heated.

At any rate, I posed a question no one really answered. It was posed at non-catholics, but I’d lik to hear the catholic answer…

“Why does it matter if Mary was ever-virgin or not? What difference does it make if she had other kids or not? What does this change about how you love and serve God?”

IMHO It doesn’t. The only thing vital to a catholic faith (in my eyes) is that we maintain Mary was SINLESS, and it’s entirely possible that Mary was sinless, yet conceived kids by Joseph. Now, I personally believe Mary was sinless and an ever virgin. The fact that she remained a virgin seems to be backed scripturally as well as through the church. I accept the teaching and find a great beauty in it.

Catholics: What does this teaching mean to you? What do you get out of it?

Protestants: Why does it matter to you SO much that she did have sex? What does this change? Forgive my accusation, but it rather seems it’s rejected so vehemently simply because you don’t want to agree with anything the RCC says…

It doesn’t matter to me if Mary was sinless or not. I don’t believe that she was.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

It also doesn’t say “except for christ”

doesnt need to since Hes the one inspiring the words. all scripture is inspired by Him.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I didn’t avoid it, I just didn’t understand it.

sorry, it is a way of describing a issue no one wants to discuss

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_in_the_room



about the cousins, brothers, being half siblings of Jesus. I think it probably goes in hand with what FCEGM posted.

Jesus was special.

Now, I had never given it another thought about Jesus having half brothers because if He did, they were not from God in the same way Jesus was. And never could be BECAUSE they were not a virgin birth.

ps you go u girl

 

[Mannyfit75]

It doesn’t matter to me if Mary was sinless or not. I don’t believe that she was.

I can easily say that Jesus did not guide the Church and had not promised that he will be with us forever, and that he didn’t really send us the Holy Spirit who will lead us to “all truths.” The truth, my friend is that Mary remain a virgin period. The Church declare it to be so, just as Jesus promised his Church will be guided in all Truth.

So to deny that Mary didn’t remain a virgin, or that she was not sinless is to deny the truth itself. The Church that declare Mary to be a Perpetual Virgin and Immaculate, is the same Church that declare that God is a Triune God, Three Divine Persons, but One God. It is also the same Church can canonized 27 NT in Scripture. The Church does not teach this certain truth about Mary, then I would have to doubt the Trinity, the Bible itself, etc, and even deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, which the Church declare to be infallible…

 

[Kitty_Chan]

The Church does not teach this certain truth about Mary, then I would have to doubt the Trinity, the Bible itself, etc, and even deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, which the Church declare to be infallible…

Hey Manny I fully realise you are trying to make a point here. However, to say it all falls apart on this one issue is a little strong. Even the Creed states born of the virgin Mary. NOW Im only saying that because** that **part was the most important part. Otherwise they would have wrote that she was perpetual.

To say she wastnt perpetual would not collapse things.

to say she wasnt a virgin would collapse things.

do you see the difference? Dont want you to lose heart guy

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hey Manny I fully realise you are trying to make a point here. However, to say it all falls apart on this one issue is a little strong. Even the Creed states born of the virgin Mary. NOW Im only saying that because** that **part was the most important part. Otherwise they would have wrote that she was perpetual.

For 2000 yrs, the Church believe that Mary is the Perpetual Virgin. It is odd that only Protestants deny this while the majority of Christians believe this since Catholics and Eastern Orthodox affirms this.

To say she wastnt perpetual would not collapse things.

Explain, Kitty.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

For 2000 yrs, the Church believe that Mary is the Perpetual Virgin. It is odd that only Protestants deny this while the majority of Christians believe this since Catholics and Eastern Orthodox affirms this.

oh sorry I was taking you a little despondent, I was attempting to tell you things are stronger than if one thing was out of place as you said it would collapse.

But I sorta contridicted myself there, because there are some things that have to be.

Like Marys virginity to start with, no question she was a virgin. Thats why I said;

To say she wastnt perpetual **would not **collapse things.

to say she** wasnt **a virgin **would **collapse things.

does that make sense? even if you dont agree?

 

[Delphinus85]

doesnt need to since Hes the one inspiring the words. all scripture is inspired by Him.

Or perhaps because it was just a given. Same thing with Mary. It was a given for 1500 years that she was sinless and a perpetual virgin. It wasn’t challenged until some renegade priest thought he knew better than the apostles, saints, and 1,500 years of history.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Or perhaps because it was just a given. Same thing with Mary. It was a given for 1500 years that she was sinless and a perpetual virgin. It wasn’t challenged until some renegade priest thought he knew better than the apostles, saints, and 1,500 years of history.

hmm not sure if your statement works that it was a given. It wasnt a given that scripture is inspired by God. Its the way it is.

Im not a sola deal, either. I and others are saying it doesnt matter to us she remained a virgin. It was more important she started as a virgin. Thats the most important point. Thats what was covered in scripture and what was covered in the creed.

Thats all I need, had God thought I needed more, He would have included it.

 

[YADA]

I am reminded of Jesus’ words when he healed the man [lame from birth] who was lifted down from the roof… “Which is easier … to say your sins are forgiven or to say pick up your mat and walk?”

Jesus forgave sins, which only God can do, the healing [which of course is only through God as well] was viewed as a miracle. However, they accepted that miracle and yet found heresy in the forgiving of sins …

Now there are many miracles around births, Sara and Issac, Elizabeth and John the Baptist, The Virgin Mary and Jesus … on some level all three involve the “power of the Holy Spirit” …

But there is a difference Mary, in this case we accept no earthly ‘paternal’ participation… A true Virgin birth …

Now as for the state of sin, perpetual virginity, etc where is the Christian to look for insight?

Adam and Eve [the ‘Mother of AllLiving’] were created by God and were sinless … Eve is taken from the very bone and flesh of Adam, they share DNA so to speak …

Jesus is the New Adam and Mary is the New Eve… in this case Mary gives to Jesus her flesh and bone … Mary’s DNA is wholly what make Jesus ‘human’ … Now with God all things re possible … Jesus could not inherit the stain of orginal sin … so Jesus [the Word] preserved Mary at her conception [as her Savior] from the stain of original sin …

Mary is also the Mother of all Living [those living and alive in the Life of Christ] … We see this in the use of the term “Woman” at Cana and at the Cross … in the giving of Mary to John the beloved disciple who stands at the foot of the cross on our behalf … and in the Book of Revelation as the Arkk of the Covenant …

In many ways this is such a profound mystery, God [Father - Son and Holy Spirit] fathers the man Jesus. Mary is more than just Jesus’ mother …

So what is easier to believe?
The conception of a woman at 90 years?
The conception of any woman after menopause?
A “Virgin” gives birth to a child and that child being the ‘son of God’?
That God decided to enter into human history aas a man? And more than just a ‘man’ but fully human and as an infant to grow into manhood and then be killed on a cross?

Or that two people could live as man and wife and not have sexual relations? That two individual persons could say ‘yes’ to God, bring the man-God into the world, nurture and care for him, cooperating in God’s divine plan … even hough they had to "ponder’ what this plan meant?

In addition to the beliefs of the early christians [and much evidence exists to show this was the common belief] and even the early reformers - This is why it matters …

Just as this dis-belief [of the perpetual virginity of Mary] gained a hold, we now have clergy claiming that Jesus is not God, Mary was not a Virgin [and even as Bishop Spong has hypothesied - Jesus is the result of a rape of Mary by a Roman Soldier]

Mary said yes to God every day of her life … Full of Grace … her yes was totally focused upon Jesus … Joseph, also said yes to God, every day of his life …

 

[prodromos]

Mary’s perpertual Viriginity, why does it matter?

Truth matters!

 

[Delphinus85]

hmm not sure if your statement works that it was a given. It wasnt a given that scripture is inspired by God. Its the way it is.

Thats all I need, had God thought I needed more, He would have included it.

huh?? “A given” means that’s the way it is, as you put it. It’s a given that scripture is inspired. Scipture never says it is, but it is and everyone knows it. It was so obvious that no one needed to point it out.

And besides, there are a lot of things in scripture never laid out. It never says what happens to people who commit suicide. It NEVER lays out if contraception is wrong, it never lays out that masturbation is wrong. That’s why we have to look at early church documents to see that these were obviously wrong, and everyone knew it so it didn’t have to be addressed. Now, S/S (sola scritura) people will say that all these issues can be conjectured from the bible. So can this issue.

Mary asked the angel how she could conceive having never known a man. Mary wasn’t stupid. She knew how the birds and bees worked, and seeing as how she was betrothed, it makes sense that if an angel visted an engaged/bethrothed woman close to her wedding day and says she will conceive a son any woman would assume the angel meant after the wedding. But she didn’t assume this. Her question suggests she never planned on having kids. Ever.

But the original question asks…why does it matter so much that people have to defend this position so adamantly?