Mary's Perpetual Virginity, What's the Big Deal?

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TimothyH said:
There was no Ark, therefor no tablets, manna, etc.

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. (Revelation 11:19)

There was no Ark in the second temple period and that is why Revelation 11:19 would have been so shocking.

-Tim-
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You are quoting from the NT (Revelations). That is NOT Prophecy! It was written more than 2000 years after the Torah and the Prophecies.

And the topic of this thread is the question about Mary being a Virgin. Since there was no prophecy (in Hebrew!) saying that the mother of the Messiah would be a virgin, that would seem to close the subject right there. An incorrect translation from Hebrew to English is…and must be…wrong.

Mind you, I’m not saying that Mary was NOT a virgin. I’m only saying that the Prophecy from Isaiah did not call for her to be one. Further, my faith in Jesus as Messiah is not based on His Mother, but on Him, His teachings, and the way He led His life.
 
Someone wrote, “It is significant to note that there was NO Hebrew prophecy of a Virgin Birth.”

The ancient Apostolic Church did not use the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, but always used the Septuagint Greek text, LXX, which is actually several hundred years older than the Masoretic Hebrew Text. Every quote in the New Testament from the Old Testament comes from the LXX text. The Greek word used in Isaiah is parthenos, which specifically means virgin. Besides the Hebrew word almah literally means young woman. In several languages, including German, young woman means a virgin as in Jungfrau Maria.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
On the issue of clerical celibacy

It was this argument that played a major role in the estrangement between East and West. When Cardinal Humbert went to Constantinople in 1054, his criticism of married priests offended many Easterners. During a discussion in the palace, he said to the Eastern clergy, “your wives are all whores and your children bastards.” Humbert had already offended the Patriarch Michael by his disrespectful attitude. With those remarks he offended the clergy of Constantinople. Thus they basically ignored him. He got mad and marched into the Holy Wisdom Cathedral and laid a papal bull of excommunication on the Altar. However, the Easterners were perfectly justified in ignoring Humbert. Humbert was a papal legate. When the pope dies, his legates lose their authority to act in his name. Pope Leo IX had died before Humbert reached Constantinople. Therefore he had lost his authority to act as a papal legate. Patriarch Michael and the rest of the Eastern clergy knew this and simply dismissed the arrogant foreigner’s demands as without authority. Humbert greatly exceeded his authority when he excommunicated the Patriarch and his supporters.
No Roman Catholic theologian in the world would doubt the validity of my ordination or the Sacraments that I administer although I am married. Celibacy is not a matter of doctrine, but is purely a matter of discipline. If we were to reach doctrinal agreement and were to renew Communion between Rome and Orthodoxy, I am certain that acceptance of mandatory celibacy by the East would not be a Roman condition for the re-establishment of Communion.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
frjohnmorris said:
Someone wrote, “It is significant to note that there was NO Hebrew prophecy of a Virgin Birth.”

The ancient Apostolic Church did not use the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, but always used the Septuagint Greek text, LXX, which is actually several hundred years older than the Masoretic Hebrew Text. Every quote in the New Testament from the Old Testament comes from the LXX text. The Greek word used in Isaiah is parthenos, which specifically means virgin. Besides the Hebrew word almah literally means young woman. In several languages, including German, young woman means a virgin as in Jungfrau Maria.

Archpriest John W. Morris
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I’ve never heard of an “Archpriest” in the Roman Catholic Church! Archbishop? Of course. I even know some of them personally.
Regardless, the prophecies all come from the Hebrew language, which man (ESPECIALLY non-Jews!) does not have any business trying to change. In this case, we are talking about the actual words from Isaiah, and NOT those of someone else who clearly seems to have made an incorrect translation. What matters is not what is in Greek, but rather, what was written in Hebrew by Isaiah.
This is also why I say that the best way to get a correct translation is by asking an Orthodox Rabbi (and no, NOT one from the Conservative or Reform movements of Judaism!). If I may suggest one: I’d suggest asking Rabbi Shloma Margolis. He would have forgotten me by now, but he was the Rabbi at Congregation Chai Odom (in the Boston area) when I was Bar Mitzvah…51 years ago. Another possibility would be Rabbi Seth Mandel, who is a bit younger. But feel free to choose your own.

Sorry to have to edit this, but I just did a Google search on Rabbi Margolis. Sad to say, he passed away last year. Here is a link that will prove that:
matzav.com/rav-shlomo-margolis-ztl
He was 99 years of age on his passing.
 
An Archpriest is the Orthodox equivalent to a Roman Catholic Monsignor. It is the highest title given a married priest in the Orthodox Church. An Archpriest has the title Very Rev. and wears a jeweled pectoral cross.
I am quite sure that the Roman Catholics would agree with my argument that we must interpret the Bible within the context of the Holy Tradition of the Church, not on our own like the Protestants. You also cannot ignore the fact that St. Matthew interpreted the text to mean “virgin.” Since I believe that St. Matthew was divinely inspired, I cannot but believe that “virgin” is the correct translation of Isaiah 6:14.
Frankly, I would not go to a rabbi for any interpretation of the Old Testament, because as an Orthodox Christian, I believe that Christ is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. As an Orthodox Christian, I read the Old Testament within the context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Holy Tradition of the Church. A rabbi would not understand that and therefore is not qualified to advise Christians on the proper meaning of the Old Testament. The Holy Fathers are a much better guide to help a Christian understand the Bible. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church would agree with us on this matter.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
frjohnmorris said:
An Archpriest is the Orthodox equivalent to a Roman Catholic Monsignor. It is the highest title given a married priest in the Orthodox Church. An Archpriest has the title Very Rev. and wears a jeweled pectoral cross.
I am quite sure that the Roman Catholics would agree with my argument that we must interpret the Bible within the context of the Holy Tradition of the Church, not on our own like the Protestants. You also cannot ignore the fact that St. Matthew interpreted the text to mean “virgin.” Since I believe that St. Matthew was divinely inspired, I cannot but believe that “virgin” is the correct translation of Isaiah 6:14.
Frankly, I would not go to a rabbi for any interpretation of the Old Testament, because as an Orthodox Christian, I believe that Christ is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. As an Orthodox Christian, I read the Old Testament within the context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Holy Tradition of the Church. A rabbi would not understand that and therefore is not qualified to advise Christians on the proper meaning of the Old Testament. The Holy Fathers are a much better guide to help a Christian understand the Bible. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church would agree with us on this matter.

Archpriest John W. Morris
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So you would take the word of someone who is not an expert (and probably not even schooled!) in the Hebrew language over the word of someone who is totally fluent in the Hebrew language? How very convenient for you, but how much you leave yourself open to someone else’s mistranslation.
As for your line: "
A rabbi would not understand that and therefore is not qualified to advise Christians on the proper meaning of the Old Testament."… I have to disagree with you. There is nobody MORE qualified to translate the Hebrew into English than an Orthodox Rabbi who speaks both languages fluently.
My guess is that you probably think the Commandment is “Thou shalt not kill”, when in fact it is “Thou shalt not MURDER”. Again, the commonly used English translation of “kill” is a bad interpretation. Here’s why: Both killing and murdering wind up with the same result: a person who is dead. However, Murder is done “with malice aforethought”. It is premeditated…planned in advance. Killing can be done in many different ways such as in warfare, self-defense, or even by accident. For example, you may be driving your car during the winter and hit a patch of black ice. Your car goes out of control, and you strike a pedestrian. No jury (at least, not in the USA) would ever find you guilty of Murder for what was obviously an accident. Thus, God made it clear that he did not want people to deliberately terminate innocent human lives… which is why abortion is murder: an innocent human life is deliberately terminated, and I would say that act is done “with malice aforethought”.
I hope you’ve learned something today.
 
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