Mary's perpetual virginity

[Harmony1988]

Now someone said, Mary was bethrothed to Joseph, so naturally like any marriage she would no doubt consummate. Where in scripture does it indicate that she pledged to be a virgin?

Also what would be the point of her being bethrothed if she was to remain a virgin

 

[Verbum]

Hi Harmony,

Scripture does not explicitely state that Mary had pledged to be a virgin. We infer it from the fact that when the angel says that she will become a mother, she answers, “How will this happen since I do not know man?”

However, you do not have to believe this interpretation. Catholic doctrine centers on this statement : Mary was in fact a virgin before, during and after Jesus’ birth.

Verbum

 

[Harmony1988]

Actually I found the reason, it was in the protoevangelium. Hard to use that with a protestant, however it helps and I get a different line with this.

 

[LilyM]

Now someone said, Mary was bethrothed to Joseph, so naturally like any marriage she would no doubt consummate. Where in scripture does it indicate that she pledged to be a virgin?

Also what would be the point of her being bethrothed if she was to remain a virgin

The point was so that Mary and Jesus would have a protector. Their lives would be WAY more difficult if she had been an unwed mother - she would’ve potentially been stoned to death for unchastity (since people wouldn’t have understood Jesus’ divine origins) and Jesus would’ve been stigmatised as an illegitimate child.

 

[Harmony1988]

The point was so that Mary and Jesus would have a protector. Their lives would be WAY more difficult if she had been an unwed mother - she would’ve potentially been stoned to death for unchastity (since people wouldn’t have understood Jesus’ divine origins) and Jesus would’ve been stigmatised as an illegitimate child.

Yes but from the gospels you can’t derive this. This is only made clear in the protoevangelium. In the gospels, she is betrothed. So many assume that she would have normal relations with Joseph. I won’t blame them either for thinking that.

 

[clh1217]

Yes but from the gospels you can’t derive this. This is only made clear in the protoevangelium. In the gospels, she is betrothed. So many assume that she would have normal relations with Joseph. I won’t blame them either for thinking that.

If you believe the word of God…you will take on complete faith that she was surely a virgin when the Holy Spirit came upon her and she became with child.

This is spelled out in scripture very clear when May said to the angel in Luke 1…"34 “How can this be since I am a virgin?”

However, after the birth of Christ, there is simply NO evidence what so ever that Mary remained a virgin.

In reality, it is quite the contrary…there are several references that there are at least four brothers and two sisters…and with proper study you can comfortably assume that they are Jesus biolgoical and actual brothers and sisters fathered by Joseph.

 

[jpy15026]

If you believe the word of God…you will take on complete faith that she was surely a virgin when the Holy Spirit came upon her and she became with child.

This is spelled out in scripture very clear when May said to the angel in Luke 1…"34 “How can this be since I am a virgin?”

However, after the birth of Christ, there is simply NO evidence what so ever that Mary remained a virgin.

In reality, it is quite the contrary…there are several references that there are at least four brothers and two sisters…and with proper study you can comfortably assume that they are Jesus biolgoical and actual brothers and sisters fathered by Joseph.

Not only did Jesus have brothers and sisters but according to Sola Scriptura he also had a daughter!!

Matthew 9:22 (RSV)
22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.

 

[LilyM]

If you believe the word of God…you will take on complete faith that she was surely a virgin when the Holy Spirit came upon her and she became with child.

This is spelled out in scripture very clear when May said to the angel in Luke 1…"34 “How can this be since I am a virgin?”

However, after the birth of Christ, there is simply NO evidence what so ever that Mary remained a virgin.

In reality, it is quite the contrary…there are several references that there are at least four brothers and two sisters…and with proper study you can comfortably assume that they are Jesus biolgoical and actual brothers and sisters fathered by Joseph.

No you can’t, each and every one of the ‘siblings’ mentioned are elsewhere shown to have either a mother who isn’t Mary the mother of Jesus, or a father who isn’t Joseph.

 

[Harmony1988]

If you believe the word of God…you will take on complete faith that she was surely a virgin when the Holy Spirit came upon her and she became with child.

This is spelled out in scripture very clear when May said to the angel in Luke 1…"34 “How can this be since I am a virgin?”

However, after the birth of Christ, there is simply NO evidence what so ever that Mary remained a virgin.

In reality, it is quite the contrary…there are several references that there are at least four brothers and two sisters…and with proper study you can comfortably assume that they are Jesus biolgoical and actual brothers and sisters fathered by Joseph.

This is a VERY silly explanation and so much so considering in the modern world, ‘bro’ is used quite liberally everywhere. IN the Bible itself there are tons of references to brethren, bros and what not, in circumstances where it’s obvious that they have no relation.

In the New American Bible’s English translation of the Gospel of St. Mark we do indeed read about the crowd asking, “Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary, a brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Aren’t His sisters our neighbors here?” (Mk 6:3)

The problem emerges in understanding the meaning of the word adelphos, brother. In the original text of the Gospel, we find the Greek word adelphos meaning brother, used. However, does not just mean blood brothers born of the same parents. Rather, adelphos was used to describe brothers not born of the same parents, like a half-brother or stepbrother. The word also described other relationships, like cousins, nephews, etc.

For example, in Gn 13:8 and 14:1416, the word adelphos was used to describe the relationship between Abraham and Lot; however, these two men did not share a brother relationship, but one of uncle and nephew. Another instance is that of Laban, who was an adelphos to Jacob, not as a brother, but as an uncle. (In the New American translation, “kinsman” or “relative” will be used in these Old Testament cases; I do not know why this is not true in the English translation of the Gospel.) The same is true for the word sister.

Part of an analysis

More

The Gospels are also very clear that Mary was a virgin at the time she conceived Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Mt 1:18-25, Lk 1:26-38). Remember when the Archangel Gabriel announced to Mary God’s plan, she responded, “How can this be, since I do not know man?”

After the birth of our Lord, although the Gospels do not give us many details of His childhood, no mention is made of Mary and Joseph ever having other children. Never does it refer to the “sons of Mary” or “a son of Mary,” but only the son of Mary.

This point is again corroborated at the crucifixion scene: Before He dies, our Lord says to Mary, “Woman, there is your son,” and then to St. John, who is definitely not a blood brother, “There is your mother.”

According to Jewish law, the oldest son had the responsibility of caring for the widowed mother, and that responsibility would pass to the next oldest if anything happened to the first-born son. By this time, St. Joseph has died. Since Jesus, the first born, had no “blood brother,” He entrusted Mary to the care of St. John, the Beloved Disciple. Interestingly, the Orthodox Churches solve this problem over brothers and sisters by speculating that St. Joseph was a widower who had other children before he married Mary. These brothers and sisters would really then be half-brothers and half-sisters. Perhaps this notion is why St. Joseph sometimes appears elderly in paintings. Actually, this whole confusion is not new. About 380, Helvidius suggested that the “brethren” were the children born of Mary and Joseph after Jesus. St. Jerome declared this as a “novel, wicked, and daring affront to the faith of the whole world.” In his On th e Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mary, St. Jerome used both Scripture and the fathers, like Saints Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr to refute Helvidius. Later, the First Lateran Council (649) definitively declared that Mary was “ever virgin and immaculate.”

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0090.html

 

[clh1217]

Not only did Jesus have brothers and sisters but according to Sola Scriptura he also had a daughter!!

Matthew 9:22 (RSV)
22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.

LOL…I do hope you are kidding.

We are sons and daughters of the King.

 

[clh1217]

This is a VERY silly explanation and so much so considering in the modern world, ‘bro’ is used quite liberally everywhere. IN the Bible itself there are tons of references to brethren, bros and what not, in circumstances where it’s obvious that they have no relation.

Part of an analysis

More

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0090.html

would you like me to cut and paste from some real websites that study this objectively, …

or are you truly satisfied to live in total mediocrity by simply believing what you have been told without properly studying for yourself?

 

[LilyM]

LOL…I do hope you are kidding.

We are sons and daughters of the King.

And brothers and sisters of Christ as well - ‘whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother’.

Jesus apparently had, by your logic, 120 blood siblings gathered in the upper Room at Pentecost, since as Acts points out, all were ‘brothers’ of James, ‘brother’ of the Lord. That makes Mary quite the paragon of fertiity!

 

[jpy15026]

LOL…I do hope you are kidding.

We are sons and daughters of the King.

I’m just showing how dangerous it is when we use our own interpretation of the Bible.We can not just pick up the bible and interperate on our own,this is why we need the magisterium of Holy Catholic Church,scripture* and* tradition.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the* traditions* which you were taught by us,either by word *of mouth **or ***by letter.

Luke 1:46-49
And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth *all *generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me,and holy is his name.

 

[VociMike]

If you believe the word of God…you will take on complete faith that she was surely a virgin when the Holy Spirit came upon her and she became with child.

This is spelled out in scripture very clear when May said to the angel in Luke 1…"34 “How can this be since I am a virgin?”

However, after the birth of Christ, there is simply NO evidence what so ever that Mary remained a virgin.

In reality, it is quite the contrary…there are several references that there are at least four brothers and two sisters…and with proper study you can comfortably assume that they are Jesus biolgoical and actual brothers and sisters fathered by Joseph.

No evidence? You mean, I’m sure, no scriptural evidence. Because you reject the witness of the Church as evidence.

But there is plenty of scriptural evidence as well. Jesus is often called the son of Mary. Where is any other person called a son or daughter of Mary? And why did Mary go to live in the house of John for the rest of her days if she had other sons and daughters? Why did those sons and daughters allow her to live in the home of an unrelated male, and further, one high up in the “cult” that had gotten their eldest brother killed?

 

[jpy15026]

And brothers and sisters of Christ as well - ‘whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother’.

Jesus apparently had, by your logic, 120 blood siblings gathered in the upper Room at Pentecost, since as Acts points out, all were ‘brothers’ of James, ‘brother’ of the Lord. That makes Mary quite the paragon of fertiity!

More than that LilyM:
1 Corinthians 15:3-9
3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; 4 that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; 5 that he appeared to Kephas, then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

 

[jpy15026]

To strongly refute anyone who says the Blessed Mother had relations, one has to use the writings of the Fathers of the Church, some of whom were the disciples of the Apostles of Christ. If anyone knows about this it would be the ones that lived during (or soon after) the time that the Blessed Mother lived. They would be the ones that heard the truth from Mary, her relatives and friends and from the Apostles.
Keep in mind that up to the appearance of Martin Luther, the whole world believed that Mary was Ever Virgin. Is it logical that someone in the 16th century would know more than the Fathers of the Church and all of Christendom, 16 centuries after it all happened?

Till the third or fourth century the Blessed Mother was called “Virgin Mary”. Anyone with any logic whatsoever would realize that if the Blessed Mother had children after Jesus she would not have been called “Virgin Mary” anymore, but would be called some other title, like “mother of Jesus”. When a woman dies as a married woman they do not call her “miss so and so”, referring to her state before marriage, but they call her "Mrs. so and so”. One gets the title of their state at the time of death, and not at any “arbitrary” point in life.
So the Blessed Mother is called “Virgin Mary” because everyone understands by *that *title that she *died *a Virgin.
What caused the Church to add the title “Ever” or “Perpetual” is because a *heretic *named Helvidius suggested that the “brethren” were the children born of Mary and Joseph after Jesus was born. That is when St. Jerome and the councils stressed the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Below you will find a link to the work of St. Jerome “THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF BLESSED MARY, Against Helvidius.”

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/PII6-11.TXT

Here are very ancient writings that call her “Ever Virgin Mary”:

“Thou who art the only-begotten Son and Word of God, immortal; who didst submit for our salvation to become flesh of the holy God-mother, and** ever-virgin Mary**; who didst immutably become man and wast crucified, ” The Divine Liturgy of James the Holy Apostle and Brother of the Lord.
“Commemorating with all the holy and just, our all-holy, pure, most glorious Lady, the God-mother, and ever-virgin Mary, let us devote ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, to Christ our God. .” The Divine Liturgy of James the Holy Apostle and Brother of the Lord.

“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed” St. Athansius, Four Discourses against the Arians, Discourse II
“And the Word became flesh without being changed, of the Holy Spirit, and Mary the holy and ever- virgin one, the mother of God.” *St. Basil The Great, An exact exposition of the Orthodox Faith., Bk. III Chap.I *

cont…

 

[jpy15026]

“Therefore we confess that our Lord and God Jesus Christ the only Son of God, who for His own sake was begotten of the Father before all worlds, when in time He was for our sakes: made man of the Holy Ghost and the ever-virgin Mary,” *John Cassian Seven Books on The Incarnation of The Lord against Nestorius, Bk. I Chap. V *

“Who for us men and for our salvation came down, and was incarnate, that is to say was conceived perfectly through the Holy Ghost of the holy ever-virgin Mary, and was made man,” First Council of Constantinople.

“Moreover we confess that one of the same holy consubstantial Trinity, God the Word, who was begotten of the Father before the worlds, in the last days of the world for us and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Ghost, and of our Lady, the holy, immaculate, ever-virgin and glorious Mary, truly and properly the Mother of God” Second Council of Constantinople.

“Possibly his reason for thinking that our Lord Jesus Christ was not of our nature was this–that the Angel who was sent to the blessed and **ever Virgin Mary **said, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,…” *The Council of *Chalcedon

.

 

[jpy15026]

Something I found a while back:
For when the angel revealed to him that Mary was truly the spouse of the Holy Spirit, Joseph could take Mary, his betrothed, into his house as a wife, but he could never have intercourse with her because according to the Law she was forbidden to him for all time.
There is Jewish Law which one has to consider:
“From the earliest biblical days adultery carried with it a sense of defilement, so that a woman who had know contact with another man, even if by force, was considered no longer fit to be visited by her husband (Genesis 49:4; 2 Samuel 20:3. 16:21-22.The deuteronomic code teaches that a woman who is divorced by her husband and thereafter marries another man likewise cannot return to her former husband (Dt 24:1-4). As the Lord said through the prophet Jeremiah: “If a man put away his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man’s wife, shall he return to her again, shall not the land (his wife’s body) be greatly polluted?” (Jr 3:1; see Targum to Dt 24:1-4).
In rabbinic law a woman who has committed adultery is “defiled” and cannot remain the wife of her husband, but must be divorced.Furthermore any intimate male contact by the wife with Jew or gentile, potent or impotent, natural or unnatural makes divorce compulsory (Sotha 26b; Yebamoth 55a, b, 87b; Kethuboth 9a, Babylonian Talmud; Kethuboth 25a; Sotah 27a, Yad, Sotah 2,2, Jerusalem Talmud)……………
In Jewish Law a man betrothed to a woman was considered legally married to her. The word for betrothed in Hebrew is Kiddush, a word that is derived from the Hebrew word Kadash which means “holy” “consecrated,” “set apart.” Because by betrothal (as in Mt 1:18; Lk 1:27) , or marriage, a woman became the peculiar property of her husband, forbidden to others.”
We know from the Gospel of Matthew 1:14 that Joseph the husband of Mary was a righteous man, a devout law-abiding Jew. Having noticed that Mary was pregnant and that he, her betrothed, had nothing to do with the pregnancy, Joseph had either to publicly condemn her and have her put to death for adultery (Dt 22:22-29) or put her away privately.
His decision was made when an angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins” (Mt. 1:20-21). The angel does not use the phrase for marital union: “go in unto” (as in Gn 30:3, 4, 16) or “come together” (Mt 1:18) but merely a word meaning leading her into the house as a wife (paralambano gunaika) but not cohabiting with her.
From the above alone one can see that St. Joseph who is called a “just man” in the Bible would have not allowed any relations with Mary because it would have been against the Jewish Laws.

For when the angel revealed to him that Mary was truly the spouse of the Holy Spirit, Joseph could take Mary, his betrothed, into his house as a wife, but he could never have intercourse with her because according to the Law she was forbidden to him for all time.

 

[thistle]

Actually the founding fathers of Protestantism, Luther, Calvin and Zwingili all believed in (and declared in writing) the perpetual viginity of Mary.

 

[clh1217]

And brothers and sisters of Christ as well - ‘whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother’.

Jesus apparently had, by your logic, 120 blood siblings gathered in the upper Room at Pentecost, since as Acts points out, all were ‘brothers’ of James, ‘brother’ of the Lord. That makes Mary quite the paragon of fertiity!

oh, you were being “smart”.



The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)

Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”

1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”

Gal. 1:19 - “But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.”

An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Catholic theologians tend to differ from what scriptures say by manipulating scripture beyond recognition or by entering very UN-inspired and unscriptural sources.