Mary's perpetual virginity

[JB_Brother_4446]

James the son of Alphaeus is not James the brother of the Lord. Neither is Jude Thaddeus the brother of the Lord.

Here’s why:
In the Biblical passages referring to James, the “brother” or kinsman of Jesus the first Christian Bishop of Jerusalem, none of these passages identifies James the bishop as one of the 12 Apostles: Mark 5:37; 6:3; Acts 12:17; 15:13; 21:18; Gal.1:19; 2:9; 2:12; James 1:1; Jude 1:1; 1 Corinthians 15:3-7. Let’s take for example St. Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 written circa 54AD: “I handed on to you first of all what I myself received that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures; that He was buried and, in accordance with the Scriptures, rose on the third day; that He was seen by Cephas, then by the Twelve. After that He was seen by 500 brothers at once, most of whom are still alive, although some have fallen asleep. Next He was seen by James; then by all the apostles.” Paul notes that the resurrected Savior was seen by:
Cephas = Simon-Peter, who Paul identifies by his title ROCK in Aramaic which is rendered “Kepha” but transliterated into Greek is rendered as Kephas or Cephas.
The Twelve, which had become a title for the original Apostles chosen from among the 70 disciples as the leaders of the Church.
500 believers
James
By the rest of the disciples, or apostles which we might designate with a small “a” to distinguish them men from the 12 Apostles. The other “apostles” includes the original 70 men who were Jesus’ disciples during His 3 years of ministry, among them Barnabas and Stephen, and men like St. Paul who came to believe after the Resurrection and became leaders in the Church.

Notice that Paul does not place the man he names as “James” within the framework of the first 12 Apostles selected by Jesus, nor in all the existing ancient writings of the Church fathers is James the brother of Jesus ever identified as one of the 12 Apostles. James the Just can be identified as an “apostle” in the same way Paul and Barnabas and others of influence in the early Church are identified as “apostles” or messengers sent out by the authority of the Twelve [see Acts 14:14; Romans 1:1; 16:7; 1 Corinthians 12:28ff; Ephesians 2:20; Philippians 2:18 (“messenger” or “representative” in the Greek in this passage is apostolos), but he is not identified in this way by Paul in this passage.

Jude is never identified as “one of the Twelve”, a title used by the Early Church Fathers to identify the Twelve Apostles in early Church documents and letters. Jude is listed as an apostle [with a small “a”] in the same way St. Paul, St. Barnabas, and St. Mark are identified as apostles.
In the Gospels Peter and Andrew are identified as “brothers” or kinsmen and John and James Zebedee are identified as “brothers” and sons of a man named Zebedee, but James the Apostle and Jude the Apostle are not identified as brothers, suggesting that these men were not related and there were two other men who bore the same very common 1st century AD names who were James the Bishop and his brother Jude.
In his letter, St. Jude urges Christians to remain faithful to the teachings of the Apostles in verse 17 but does not include himself as an Apostle: But remember, my dear friends, what the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.
Jesus’ “brothers” / kinsmen are identified in Scripture as not believing in Him until after the Resurrection: Not even his brothers had faith in him [John 7:5]. It wasn’t until after the Resurrection, when He appeared privately to James [1 Corinthians 15:7], that they believed and the brothers/ kinsmen of Jesus are listed as being in the company of the Apostles - not as Apostles themselves - in the Upper Room: …and when they reached the city they went to the Upper Room where they were staying; there were Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Jude son of James. With one heart all these joined constantly in prayer, together with some women, including Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. Acts 1:13-14.

Cited from Agape Bible Studies.

 

[Cathoholic]

Re-reading thread and I noticed in post 58 I said:

I’ve walked back 2000 years of Church Fathers on this issue and I found no dissent. (concerning the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary teachings)

I should have used a small “f” in “Church Fathers” there or “Saints and/or authoritative Church sources”

The Church Fathers usually concern about the first 700 years of the Church.

My apologies if this caused any confusion.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

James the son of Alphaeus is not James the brother of the Lord. Neither is Jude Thaddeus the brother of the Lord.

Here’s why:
…blah blah blah.

Cited from Agape Bible Studies.

You are free to swallow as gospel everything you read on that website, since it appears to be sincerely Catholic. However, his opinions are not doctrine, nor are they in agreement with many of the ECFs.

…just sayin’

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

The spouse detail is specified right after the word “sister”, as if to give more clarity. I would read this as “spouse” being the operative word.

This quote from Luke is about Mary getting pregnant with Jesus. I agree she was most likely a virgin when she got pregnant with Jesus.
But I still think she had children with Joseph after that because the bible mentions sisters and brothers to Jesus…and so many writers in that first century acknowledge James as being Jesus brother.

.

In modern society isn’t a stepbrother a brother?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Yes…everything you quote, above, shows James to be Jesus’ brother. But it doesn’t say that Mary was *not * both their mother.

I’m aware that Tertulian was eventually called a “heretic”…a century or two after he died, right? When the concept of perpetual virginity gained support?
But that is quite convenient, that one should be said to be wrong about teachings hundreds of years later, as new doctrine formed.
At the same time, he was very “right” about some teachings, yes? And very much lauded for originating and advancing other new and agreeable theology within the church?

.

Does the text say that Mary was their mother?

In Mark’s gospel, Jesus is called “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. From this Bible passage we can see that Jesus was distinguished from His stepbrothers.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

You are free to swallow as gospel everything you read on that website, since it appears to be sincerely Catholic. However, his opinions are not doctrine, nor are they in agreement with many of the ECFs.

…just sayin’

The Didache a highly respected work among Catholics, distinguishes James the brother of the Lord from the Jameses that were of the Twelve.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The Didache a highly respected work among Catholics, distinguishes James the brother of the Lord from the Jameses that were of the Twelve.

There can be MANY possible reasons for this error in the Didache, which was mainly a liturgical text, of which only one exists as an inclusion in yet another ancient single codex.

You might want to temper your statements with qualifiers such as “some say” or “in some places it is found” etc. etc., as opposed to HERE are the FACTS!

But I know that won’t happen.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

There can be MANY possible reasons for this error in the Didache, which was mainly a liturgical text, of which only one exists as an inclusion in yet another ancient single codex.

You might want to temper your statements with qualifiers such as “some say” or “in some places it is found” etc. etc., as opposed to HERE are the FACTS!

But I know that won’t happen.

The apparent error in the Didache was believed by people like Origen and Eusebius. And since the text is an insight on what people believed, well the identity of James the Just as a person outside of the twelve.

 

[Cathoholic]

DaddyGirl. Tertullian had left the Catholic Priesthood and was running around with and identifying himself with Montanists around 206 A.D.

This was not a retrospective secret.

If you want I can look it up in my “Jurgens”.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The apparent error in the Didache was believed by people like Origen and Eusebius. And since the text is an insight on what people believed, well the identity of James the Just as a person outside of the twelve.

That’s a valid point. I am not saying that there is NO basis for that supposition. Just that it is one opinion among many others. What you find to be convincing is not necessarily shared by others however. It’s not that your favored opinion is categorically wrong, or another is categorically right, but that there are doubts in either direction.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

That’s a valid point. I am not saying that there is NO basis for that supposition. Just that it is one opinion among many others. What you find to be convincing is not necessarily shared by others however. It’s not that your favored opinion is categorically wrong, or another is categorically right, but that there are doubts in either direction.

There are also doubts in your theory.

 

[Good_Fella]

James the son of Alphaeus is not James the brother of the Lord. Neither is Jude Thaddeus the brother of the Lord.

According to the list of the Apostles, James and Jude must have been brothers / half-brothers. James is called “brother of the Lord” because he was his cousin. Joseph was his uncle. Jude (son of James) is the younger brother of James and so also a cousin of Jesus. They are ranked according to age. Do you honestly believe that Joseph had sons from a previous marriage who went by the same names of James, Jude, and Simon and ranked in age just as those three of the Twelve had? You’re pulling characters out of thin air.

Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Mark 6:3

These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”), Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas,** James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot** and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
Mark 3, 16-19

newadvent.org/cathen/08280a.htm
PAX

:heaven:

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

:

Yaakov, Yosef, Shimon, and Yehudah were all common names. You do realize that there were two Jameses, two Simons and two Judases in the twelve. The opinion that James the brother of the Lord was not James the son of Alphaeus was obviously well known at the time. James the brother of the Lord is an apostle, not an Apostle.
I’m guessing you think Eastern Catholics pull characters out of thin air as well?

From a western Catholic website:

*Obviously something earthshaking had to occur to change the thinking of these men. The Apostle Paul in the first account of the resurrection tells us what happened.

“He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve…then by James, then by all the apostles. Last of all he was seen by me” (1 Cor. 15: 5, 7).

This James was the “brother of the Lord.” His next appearance was at the “upper room” in prayer after the ascension.*

 

[wmscott]

Maybe, but…they are not usually married. Married people–especially Catholics–usually have sex with their spouse. It is very much encouraged, I thought. God encourages procreation and “the marital embrace”, I thought.
Isn’t Mary going against her marriage vows by not consummating her marriage with Joseph and not being a wife to him in a physical sense?
Could Joseph get the marriage annulled?.

Sorry for being away for a bit and not responding back to you.

So is it possible that for whatever reason a couple can marry and not consummate the marriage with the marital act? I guess I am trying to say that there are far too many folks that, because it is Catholic theology, will unequivocally deny any possibility that the Blessed Mother’s perpetual virginity. To me this is trying to put God and his plan into a box and contain him somehow. In addition to admit that the Catholic Church is right about this would be to admit that the Catholic Church is right about many other things, can’t have that now can we

I really do not want to cut and paste answers so the attached will explain much better than I can (Not my work)

 

[Good_Fella]

Yaakov, Yosef, Shimon, and Yehudah were all common names. You do realize that there were two Jameses, two Simons and two Judases in the twelve. The opinion that James the brother of the Lord was not James the son of Alphaeus was obviously well known at the time. James the brother of the Lord is an apostle, not an Apostle.
I’m guessing you think Eastern Catholics pull characters out of thin air as well?

Common names, but in the same order ranking in age? Come on! What are the odds? I prefer to stick with substance.

How do you know it was a well-known opinion that James, the brother of the Lord, was not the son of Alphaeus, not that opinions matter? A lot of hearsay was floating about in early times. Read the early Apocrypha concerning Jesus himself to see what I mean. Are you Eastern Catholic?

From a western Catholic website:

*Obviously something earthshaking had to occur to change the thinking of these men. The Apostle Paul in the first account of the resurrection tells us what happened.

“He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve…then by James, then by all the apostles. Last of all he was seen by me” (1 Cor. 15: 5, 7).

This James was the “brother of the Lord.” His next appearance was at the “upper room” in prayer after the ascension*.

It seems to me that Jesus appeared to both Peter and James on separate occasions when they were alone and then again when the two were with the Twelve or Apostles. James is mentioned along with Peter because the two belonged to the college of the Apostles. They weren’t just ordinary disciples. Also, by “brother” of the Lord, we mean “cousin”. I cited 1 Chronicles to show you that the word brother can mean cousin in Hebrew parlance. The only Jameses that we know of with certainty are the ones we find in the list of the Apostles: The son of Zebedee and the son of Alpheus (Clopas?). Anyone else just appears out of thin air. Don’t put your faith in errant oral traditions. There’s one that mentions the names of Joseph’s grandchildren. So he was a grandpa to boot.

*5 That he was seen by Cephas, then by the eleven apostles, 6 and afterwards by more than five hundred of the brethren at once, most of whom are alive at this day, though some have gone to their rest. 7 Then he was seen by James, then by all the apostles;

5 καὶ ὅτι ὤφθη Κηφᾷ, εἶτα τοῖς δώδεκα: 6 ἔπειτα ὤφθη ἐπάνω πεντακοσίοις ἀδελφοῖς ἐφάπαξ, ἐξ ὧν οἱ πλείονες μένουσιν ἕως ἄρτι, τινὲς δὲ ἐκοιμήθησαν: 7 ἔπειτα ὤφθη Ἰακώβῳ, εἶτα τοῖς ἀποστόλοις πᾶσιν:*

I don’t think Jesus appeared to every ordinary “apostle” as you put it.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Common names, but in the same order ranking in age? Come on! What are the odds? I prefer to stick with substance.

How do you know it was a well-known opinion that James, the brother of the Lord, was not the son of Alphaeus, not that opinions matter? A lot of hearsay was floating about in early times. Read the early Apocrypha concerning Jesus himself to see what I mean. Are you Eastern Catholic?

It seems to me that Jesus appeared to both Peter and James on separate occasions when they were alone and then again when the two were with the Twelve or Apostles. James is mentioned along with Peter because the two belonged to the college of the Apostles. They weren’t just ordinary disciples. Also, by “brother” of the Lord, we mean “cousin”. I cited 1 Chronicles to show you that the word brother can mean cousin in Hebrew parlance. The only Jameses that we know of with certainty are the ones we find in the list of the Apostles: The son of Zebedee and the son of Alpheus (Clopas?). Anyone else just appears out of thin air. Don’t put your faith in errant oral traditions. There’s one that mentions the names of Joseph’s grandchildren. So he was a grandpa to boot.

*5 That he was seen by Cephas, then by the eleven apostles, 6 and afterwards by more than five hundred of the brethren at once, most of whom are alive at this day, though some have gone to their rest. 7 Then he was seen by James, then by all the apostles;

5 καὶ ὅτι ὤφθη Κηφᾷ, εἶτα τοῖς δώδεκα: 6 ἔπειτα ὤφθη ἐπάνω πεντακοσίοις ἀδελφοῖς ἐφάπαξ, ἐξ ὧν οἱ πλείονες μένουσιν ἕως ἄρτι, τινὲς δὲ ἐκοιμήθησαν: 7 ἔπειτα ὤφθη Ἰακώβῳ, εἶτα τοῖς ἀποστόλοις πᾶσιν:*

I don’t think Jesus appeared to every ordinary “apostle” as you put it.

PAX
:heaven:

The Twelve are clearly distinguished from the apostles. The apostles mean the 70. So according to you Eusebius, Clement, Origen, and Ephiphanius were pulling people out of thin air? The only person called a cousin of Jesus was Simeon, who was totally different from Simon the Zealot. I’m also pretty sure Jerome was errant as well. So there are six Jameses in the Bible. If number 2 is the same as number 5 then there would be four Jameses.

The people named James in the Bible are these:

James of Zebedee

James of Alpheus

James of Mary

James father of Jude

James the younger

James the brother of the Lord.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The Twelve are clearly distinguished from the apostles.

You’re dead wrong about that. “The Twelve” are none other than the “Apostles.” I think you’re confusing the Disciples (the 72) with the Apostles.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

You’re dead wrong about that. “The Twelve” are none other than the “Apostles.” I think you’re confusing the Disciples (the 72) with the Apostles.

Then how come Paul says the Twelve then all of the apostles? Aren’t you forgetting there were apostles outside the Twelve?

 

[Good_Fella]

The Twelve are clearly distinguished from the apostles. The apostles mean the 70. So according to you Eusebius, Clement, Origen, and Ephiphanius were pulling people out of thin air?

Eusebius was a 4th century Greek bishop and Church historian who, I suppose, had the privilege of speculating in a fallible private capacity. So it doesn’t matter what he thought. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Epiphanius were influenced by the errant non-canonical Nativity Gospel of James (c.150 AD) which states Joseph was a widower when the temple priests had arranged his marriage with Mary. Thus they questioned whether the “brothers of Jesus” were actually his stepbrothers. This work holds no historical value. The author shows he had little knowledge of Jewish customs and practices. For instance, do you believe that the temple priests raised Mary from the age of three in the Holy of Holies? I should think not. The text embellishes the nativity narratives of Luke’s Gospel and early Marian tradition.

The only person called a cousin of Jesus was Simeon, who was totally different from Simon the Zealot. I’m also pretty sure Jerome was errant as well. So there are six Jameses in the Bible. If number 2 is the same as number 5 then there would be four Jameses.

The people named James in the Bible are these:

James of Zebedee

James of Alpheus

James of Mary

James father of Jude

James the younger

James the brother of the Lord.

Now why should these four other James’s even be mentioned by name if they weren’t counted among the Twelve? It makes no sense, considering there isn’t even anything recorded in the NT pertaining to any specific and important participation or contribution of theirs. We know Barnabas was an associate of Paul and Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot. In 1 Corinthians 15, the 500+ common disciples of Jesus are called “brethren” - not “apostles”. Yet both Peter and James are mentioned in association with “the apostles” or “the eleven”. James the younger is James the less who was called that in contrast with James, son of Zebedee, who was sometimes called “the greater”. We read in the Gospel that Jude was the “son of James” which means he was his younger brother. Jude was also an apostle along with his brothers James and Simon, and it appears is the author of the Epistle that goes by his name. Alphaeus and Mary were the apostle James’ parents, making him Jesus’ cousin together with Joseph, Jude, and Simon (Mk.6:3). Unless you can show us what these other four James’s are actually known for in an important way in the NT, you’re just picking characters out of thin air. Sorry. :imsorry:

“Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph, wife of Alphaeus was the sister of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason.”
Papias of Hierapolis (d.170 AD)

PAX

:heaven:

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Then how come Paul says the Twelve then all of the apostles? Aren’t you forgetting there were apostles outside the Twelve?

If you mean 1 Cor 15:5 you are misinterpreting. St. Paul is reiterating the repeated appearances to the Apostles. First he refers to them as “the Twelve,” then later he refers to them again as “the Apostles,” because His appearances were REPEATED to them more than once. You are inferring that St. Paul is listing appearances to different people just because he used a different synonym for “the Twelve” meaning “the Apostles.”