Mary's role in Catholicism

[southern12]

Hey all,

I’m a cradle Catholic, but I left the church for a while because I got to the point in my life where my faith transitioned from just being what I was taught to forming my own convictions about God and my spirituality.

However, I ended up on a Catholic mission trip this summer and I realized I left for a few insubstantial reasons that jus existed because I was kind of confused and exploring other religious views. I’m still not completely sure if I’m agreeing with Catholicism again because it’s what I was taught as true in the first place, but much of the doctrine does make sense and I find I like traditional services more than the contemporary ones I had been going to up until that point.

There’s one hold-up I can’t get over though: the feeling that Catholicism over-inflates Mary’s importance in Christianity. With the Rosary: why the Hail Mary if the goal is to become closer to Jesus and God? And while I was on the mission trip there were prayers being lead that made me think “How in the world is this NOT praying directly to Mary and just asking for intercession as it’s being claimed?” I vaguely remember things being prayed that I thought should only be prayed to God and not ‘though’ Mary- like asking her to guide us (or at least I’m pretty sure that was said).

I know what the though process is when it comes to what Catholics do in regards to Mary and worship of her is considered idolatry, but things like this make uncomfortable.

Can I get some views and advice please?

 

[victorbuhagiar]

Mary is the Mother of God. Mary gave Jesus His human form. She give Him birth, taught Him his catechism, cared for Him for thirty years, dressed Him, saved Him from early death, and was His first disciple. What reward did she get? Simeon prophesied that she would have her heart pierced by a sword. There she was on Golgotha seeing all the suffering of her beloved Son. She would have died for Him. Try to appreciate her for what she did. She is now the Queen of Heaven. She is our intercessor before God. And with the rosary and with God’s help, she saved Europe from being conquered by the Muslims at Lepanto.

I suggest you meditate the early chapters of of St Luke and read some books about her.

 

[CrossofChrist]

With the Rosary: why the Hail Mary if the goal is to become closer to Jesus and God?

Because Mary brings us closer to God. Otherwise Christ would not told his beloved disciple to “behold your mother” when he was dying on the Cross. But the Church sees even more than that in this saying of Jesus: Christ was telling the whole Church to behold the Virgin Mary.

And while I was on the mission trip there were prayers being lead that made me think “How in the world is this NOT praying directly to Mary and just asking for intercession as it’s being claimed?”

There are prayers that are prayed directly to the Virgin Mary. When we pray to Mary, we pray that she may intercede for us. It’s both. Prayer is not the same as worship. Prayer can be worship, but it doesn’t have to be.

I vaguely remember things being prayed that I thought should only be prayed to God and not ‘though’ Mary- like asking her to guide us (or at least I’m pretty sure that was said).

Asking Mary to guide us isn’t wrong. We’re asking for her to bring us closer to Christ, in essence to guide us.

I know what the though process is when it comes to what Catholics do in regards to Mary and worship of her is considered idolatry, but things like this make uncomfortable.

I recommend praying the rosary to get closer to both Mary and Jesus. In time you will be more comfortable with our Blessed Mother. I know from experience that it’s true.

 

[RPRPsych]

Brave words! We’re getting on slightly rocky territory, but certainly, to say “Mary, with God’s help, did X” is hyperbolic, even if we’re referring to Lepanto. Our Blessed Mother interceded - and does not cease to intercede - for us with her Son, but she cannot independently save Europe from invasion, or even a single soul.

I cringed when, for this year’s October devotions, our over-zealous parish priest composed an “Anima Maria” cribbed from the “Anima Christi” - “Soul of Mary, sanctify me…”

Hyperdulia, people. Not latria.

 

[Della]

Hey all,

I’m a cradle Catholic, but I left the church for a while because I got to the point in my life where my faith transitioned from just being what I was taught to forming my own convictions about God and my spirituality.

A lot of people do this, but many return for the reasons you cite below, so welcome back.

However, I ended up on a Catholic mission trip this summer and I realized I left for a few insubstantial reasons that jus existed because I was kind of confused and exploring other religious views. I’m still not completely sure if I’m agreeing with Catholicism again because it’s what I was taught as true in the first place, but much of the doctrine does make sense and I find I like traditional services more than the contemporary ones I had been going to up until that point.

Yes, actually getting involved and practicing the faith often leads us back because ours is a faith that asks us to do things not just believe things and it is one that is practiced daily.

There’s one hold-up I can’t get over though: the feeling that Catholicism over-inflates Mary’s importance in Christianity.

In the Church’s official liturgies: the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours, which are the prayer life of the Church, Mary is mentioned very little, really. At Mass she is only mentioned a couple of times. And only Saturdays and a few feast days through out the year honor her. The rest all focus on worshiping God.

With the Rosary: why the Hail Mary if the goal is to become closer to Jesus and God?

The rosary is the Gospel as seen through Mary’s perspective as we pray with her. Jesus is the center of the rosary because it is his life, death and resurrection that we are remembering. The Hail Mary is fully scriptural. The first part directly quotes the Gospel of Luke–the Annunciation and the Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth. The rosary developed among ordinary people who could not pray the Liturgy of the Hours because they were illiterate Religious recited the Divine Office in Latin, which the people also could not read or recite. So, in lieu of praying the Divine Office, they prayed 10 Hail Marys in place of praying 10 Psalms. There are 150 Psalms so there are 150 Hail Marys in a complete rosary. The Our Fathers and other prayers were added later, you see. Now days, most of us in developed countries can read and write, and the Divine Office is now recited in the vernacular, so we are encouraged to pray at least part of it, if we are able, daily. I pray Morning and Evening Prayer every day, for instance, as well as the rosary.

When I was a Pentecostal Protestant I got burned out by the shallow spirituality I found there (not to diss anyone’s else’s experience). I don’t know why, but I bought a rosary and started to pray with it–not to pray the rosary prayers, which I didn’t know, but merely holding it in my hands while I prayed. An odd thing happened. I sensed God’s presence in a way I’d never experienced it before. I sensed peace and holiness descend into my soul such as I had never had before. I know this is subjective, but for one who had been taught for years that Mary was practically of the devil, it was quite the break through for me. Mary leads us to God because that is her whole desire. She has no need to keep anything for herself because God has already given her everything in heaven, as he will for us, as well.

And while I was on the mission trip there were prayers being lead that made me think “How in the world is this NOT praying directly to Mary and just asking for intercession as it’s being claimed?” I vaguely remember things being prayed that I thought should only be prayed to God and not ‘though’ Mary- like asking her to guide us (or at least I’m pretty sure that was said).

The word prayer merely means to ask it doesn’t mean to worship. We are perfectly free to go directly to Mary to ask for her prayers just as we are perfectly free to go to each other to ask for one another’s prayers. Mary is a member of the Communion of Saints, as we all are. She is a part of the Church Triumphant, while we are part of the Church Militant–the part that still battles against sin in our lives. Since she and the other Saints are in heaven their prayers for us are perfect–without sinful motivations or any selfishness. So, we ask them to pray for us because God has given them that ability–for our benefit.

I know what the though process is when it comes to what Catholics do in regards to Mary and worship of her is considered idolatry, but things like this make uncomfortable.

Can I get some views and advice please?

They make you uncomfortable because you have read or heard that we Catholics worship Mary. We don’t. We honor her more highly than any other saint, but we only worship God, and God alone. We offer God latria, which is worship, to Mary hyperdulia, which is exalted honor/veneration, and to the other saints we offer dulia, which is honor/veneration. We offer veneration because God has exalted Mary and the Saints for their faithfulness, we look to their example for our own lives, and we ask their prayers to help us in our needs, both temporal and spiritual. I hope that helps you.

 

[JM3]

The Mystery of Mary

ltp.org/p-1537-the-mystery-of-mary.aspx

From the Preface:

This text is primarily concerned with giving a theologi cal and doctrinal panorama concerning Mary, in a historical perspective. Therefore questions concerning spirituality, devotion and pastoral practice are not dealt with directly. Nevertheless, it is the author’s conviction that the foundation for fruitful devotion to the Mother of God starts from sound doctrine based in Scripture and Tradition, and is nurtured by good theology. The book proceeds in thematic order. The first chapter outlines the basic scheme of what constitutes Mariology; not in isolation but in relation to other branches of theology. The second chapter deals with the Old Testament preparation for, and prefiguration of, the mystery of Marv. Next, the New testament sources for a Marian theology are proposed in chapter three. Chapter four examines the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and other truths about Our Lady being full of grace. The fifth chapter looks at Mary as Mother of God, the central dogma of Mariology. Then the various dimensions of the perpetual Virginity of Mary are elaborated in the sixth chapter. Mary’s discipleship, a relatively recent theological acquisition, is examined in the seventh chapter, and this forms the basis for a discussion of her special and active participation in the Redemption. Chapter eight illustrates the end of Mary’s earthly life and her glorious Assumption body and soul into the glory of heaven. The ninth and final chapter traces Mary’s continuing Motherhood in the Church, in which she is the Mediatrix of all graces.

CHAPTER 1

A THEOLOGY FOR MARY

The mystery of Mary lies at the very heart of Christian theology. This theme highlights God’s relation with His creatures in clear relief, and reveals the human response to God at its most perfect. In the Incarnation of the Son of God, the enduring and definitive synthesis is forged, a synthesis which the human mind of itself could not even have imagined: the Eternal enters time, the Whole lies hidden in the part, God takes on a human face. The truth communicated in Christ’s Revelation is offered to every man and woman who would welcome it as the word which is the absolutely valid source of meaning for human life. In Christ, all have access to the Father, since by His Death and Resurrection Christ has bestowed the divine life which the first Adam had refused.1 God comes to us in the realities we know best and can verify most easily, the people and events of our everyday life, in which we understand ourselves. And so, God’s coming into the world is inseparably bound with the reality of His Mother Mary. Thus, in Christ’s coming, we see most particularly and clearly what God does for humanity, in the marvels He has worked in and for the Blessed Virgin Mary. Therefore a study of Mary, Mother of God is like a microcosm or synthesis of the whole of theology, because of her intimate link with Christ in His act of creation, His Incarnation, the Redemption wrought by Him, and eschatology, which is still to be completed. The words of Mary the Mother of God, ‘the Almighty has done great things for me, Holy is His name’ are echoed by the Church and humanity.

 

[Victor2211]

Can I get some views and advice please?

Here are some biblical references to Mary that really helped me understand the wisdom of the Church’s teachings:

1 Kings 2:17 Queen Mother Bathsheba (mother of Solomon) makes a radical request of King Solomon. Solomon grants the request, stating that there is nothing he would refuse her. Anyone else who approaches the king (including his wife) does so at the risk of death. Cf: 1 Kings 1 where Bathsheba has to beg to King David (her husband) for her request. The Queen Mother is the second most powerful person in the kingdom. It is in this text that the institution of Queen Mother is established. This procedure continues down through the Davidic line, from which Jesus comes. Mary as the “Queen Mother” and “Queen of Heaven” is in direct accordance with this procedure.

John 2:1-11 Mary requests Jesus to assist the wedding party since they are out of wine. Jesus states his hour has not yet come. However, Jesus still grants his mother’s request.

Revelation 11:19 and Revelation 12:1-2 Mary as Queen of heaven compared to the Ark of the Covenant.

2 Samuel 6:9/ 1 Chronicles 15:25-29 (cf. Luke 1:39-44). Old Testament typology comparing/ foreshadowing the Ark of the Covenant with Mary.

Luke 1:41-42 “Blessed are you among women.”

Luke 1:48 “All generations will call me blessed.”

Genesis 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Cf. Revelation 12; Romans 16:20 (We, as the Body of Christ of which Mary is the first member, shall crush the head of the serpent).

2 Samuel 6:1-7 (1 Chronicles 13:9-12) Nothing shall touch the Ark (God struck Uzzah dead). (…alluding to the virginity of Mary).

Ezekiel 44:2 Only God can enter this gate (…again alluding to the virginity of Mary).

Isaiah 66:7 Mary will experience no birth pains (cf. Genesis 3:16).

John 2:4; 19:26 Jesus refers to Mary as “woman.” (cf. Genesis 3:15 – Mary as the New Eve)

Revelation 12 Mary is referred to as the “woman” eight times. (cf. Genesis 3:15 – Mary as the New Eve)

 

[Jeanne_S]

Brave words! We’re getting on slightly rocky territory, but certainly, to say “Mary, with God’s help, did X” is hyperbolic, even if we’re referring to Lepanto. Our Blessed Mother interceded - and does not cease to intercede - for us with her Son, but she cannot independently save Europe from invasion, or even a single soul.

I cringed when, for this year’s October devotions, our over-zealous parish priest composed an “Anima Maria” cribbed from the “Anima Christi” - “Soul of Mary, sanctify me…”

Hyperdulia, people. Not latria.

Ohhhhh,pretty sure our Mama Mary cringed as well.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Brave words! We’re getting on slightly rocky territory, but certainly, to say “Mary, with God’s help, did X” is hyperbolic, even if we’re referring to Lepanto. Our Blessed Mother interceded - and does not cease to intercede - for us with her Son, but she cannot independently save Europe from invasion, or even a single soul.

I cringed when, for this year’s October devotions, our over-zealous parish priest composed an “Anima Maria” cribbed from the “Anima Christi” - “Soul of Mary, sanctify me…”

Hyperdulia, people. Not latria.

I see what his intentions were, but that’s not very acceptable IMNSHO.

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever (regarding the Blessed Virgin), either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. - Lumen Gentium 67

 

[ClearWater]

There’s one hold-up I can’t get over though: the feeling that Catholicism over-inflates Mary’s importance in Christianity. With the Rosary: why the Hail Mary if the goal is to become closer to Jesus and God? And while I was on the mission trip there were prayers being lead that made me think “How in the world is this NOT praying directly to Mary and just asking for intercession as it’s being claimed?” I vaguely remember things being prayed that I thought should only be prayed to God and not ‘though’ Mary- like asking her to guide us (or at least I’m pretty sure that was said).

I know what the though process is when it comes to what Catholics do in regards to Mary and worship of her is considered idolatry, but things like this make uncomfortable.

Can I get some views and advice please?

With the Hail Mary…that’s scriptural, taken from the Bible. “Hail Full of Grace” were God’s own words to his finest creation through the Archangel Gabriel.

The next part was…“Blessed art thou amongst women”…taken from the Bible…Elizabeth’s words.

Mary has a special place in God’s life. Mary is the daughter of God the Father, the mother of Jesus, and the spouse of the Holy Spirit, as well as our spiritual mother. She is the temple and tabernacle for the Holy Trinity.

She is the epitome of humility, and is like a mirror that when any attention is called to her, she merely always reflects back God.

Mary’s womb was the first place on earth Jesus ever touched.

Mary was at the key moments in Christ’s life…even at the crucifixion, where, at that moment, he gave not only his life but his own mother to us!

We believe we are to honor our father and mother…not only our biological father and mother but our spiritual father and mother. We are commanded to do so.

We are not to confuse veneration, respect, and honor with worship.

In the Bible, Mary said…"…ALL generations will call me blessed…" Now, many faiths will REFUSE to call her “blessed”. Many prefer to ignore her, denigrade her, thinking by honoring her, we are somehow taking something away from God when we’re not.

Many faiths refuse to call Mary “blessed”. I think it’s unfortunate.

Mary is not a stumbling block. Mary lived a perfect life. She is unselfish and would only bring us back to God, intercede for us.

She is not “in the way” or an “obstacle”. Were it not for Mary’s “yes”, where we be?

Further, in the rosary…it recalls the mysteries…a summary of Christ’s life…

From conception

1. Annunciation
2. Visitation
3. Birth
4. Presentation in temple
5. Finding in the Temple
6. Baptism of Christ
7. First public miracle…Wedding at Cana
8. Proclamation of the Kingdom
9. Transfiguration
10. Institution of the Eucharist
11. Agony in the Garden
12. Scourging at the pillar
13. Crowning with thorns
14. Carrying of the Cross
15. Crucifixion and death
16. Resurrection
17. Ascension
18. Descent of the Holy Spirit
19. Assumption
20. Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth

 

[LilyM]

Put it this way. Imagine you are a child. Your mother is a stay-at-home parent who does no paid work and therefore has no money of her own, independent of what your father provides for her. He does provide for her, beyond her wildest dreams. She never comes close to having an empty wallet.

Imagine one day you are about to leave the house for school. You realise you need lunch money. Dad has already left for work. Mother is standing right by the door to wave goodbye as you leave.

Are you honestly going to stop to call your Dad at work to ask him to come home again to give you the money? Or just as bad, to ask him if it is OK for Mum to give it to you?

Of course not. You are going to simply ask her, even though the money is not hers, because you understand that Dad loves and trusts Mum deeply and is happy for her to do as she sees fit with what he has given her. And perhaps you even understand that it woul be a bit insulting both to Dad’s judgement of Mum’s character and to Mum’s trustworthiness to go over her head like that.

See, the Father trusts Mary enough that He let His own son become a helpless babe, totally dependent on her for literally everything. If He trusts her that much with the most precious thing in existence, why would He not trust her to (through His doing always, of course) dispense graces and favours as she sees fit?

 

[ClearWater]

Isaiah 66:7 Mary will experience no birth pains (cf. Genesis 3:16).

I agree with the rest. However, I thought Mary experienced pain in childbirth.

 

[Victor2211]

I agree with the rest. However, I thought Mary experienced pain in childbirth.

I knew when I included that one that it was “iffy.” I know the woman in Revelation experiences birth pain. From what I understand, though, the woman in Revelation can be seen as not only Mary, but all of Israel as well. And, I might be wrong with this, but I think the Church has no formal teaching on whether Mary actually experienced pain during childbirth.

 

[ClearWater]

Oh, okay.

 

[Todd977]

Our Blessed Mother interceded - and does not cease to intercede - for us with her Son, but she cannot independently save Europe from invasion, or even a single soul. …Hyperdulia, people. Not latria.

The ability to pray to God for others is an important part of any Christian’s life and the prayer of a saint is especially efficacious (James 5:16) but we sometimes forget that God also gives supernatural gifts to some Christians, including the gift of working miracles. (Corinthians 12:4-30) Re-read the accounts in Sacred Scripture where Peter and John cured the crippled man (Acts 3:1-6) or where Peter raised Tabitha from the dead (Acts 9:36-41) or where Paul exorcised the spirit of divination from the slave girl (Acts 16:16-18). The apostles didn’t merely pray to God for the crippled man but commanded him to walk; Peter didn’t merely pray for Tabitha but commanded her to rise; and Paul didn’t merely pray to God for the slave girl but commanded the spirit of divination to come out of her. It is not idolatrous to petition such a miracle-worker to exercise their God-given gift and work a miracle nor is it idolatrous to thank and praise a miracle-worker for exercising of their God-given gift and working a miracle. And, all the canonized saints in heaven are known miracle-workers, including the Virgin Mary.

A miracle-worker doesn’t work independently of God but with God, as God’s instrument. The miracle-worker can be the instrumental cause of a miracle but God is the principal cause of all true miracles. Therefore, whether we petition a miracle-worker for a miracle or petition God directly, God always deserves our thanks and praise and, of course, God alone deserves our adoration.

 

[Cathoholic]

Southern12,

You asked:

There’s one hold-up I can’t get over though: the feeling that Catholicism over-inflates Mary’s importance in Christianity. With the Rosary: why the Hail Mary if the goal is to become closer to Jesus and God?

Considering Luke 1:26-28, 41b-43 (bold mine) . . . . How would you answer the following question?:

There’s one hold-up I can’t get over though: the feeling that the Bible over-inflates Mary’s importance in Christianity. With Luke’s Gospel why have the angelic salutation if the goal is to become closer to Jesus and God?

LUKE 1:26-28, 41b-43 26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” . . . . 41b and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

I will tell you how I’d answer the second objection but I want to see how you’d answer it first.

 

[godisgood77]

See, the Father trusts Mary enough that He let His own son become a helpless babe, totally dependent on her for literally everything. If He trusts her that much with the most precious thing in existence, why would He not trust her to (through His doing always, of course) dispense graces and favours as she sees fit?

God did not make Jesus totally dependent on Mary… If there were no Joseph, there wouldn’t have been a Mary or Jesus (as we know them at least… God could easily make anything happen). Further, as a Catholic, I strive to conform myself to the divine will… Not to Mary’s will. I try to pray with Mary to God everyday. Through her prayer to God, she helps me conform to the divine will and receive God’s grace from God, not from Mary…

I know that is not how all see it, but that is how my family does and that is how I teach my children and all I encounter.

 

[RPRPsych]

The ability to pray to God for others is an important part of any Christian’s life and the prayer of a saint is especially efficacious (James 5:16) but we sometimes forget that God also gives supernatural gifts to some Christians, including the gift of working miracles. (Corinthians 12:4-30) Re-read the accounts in Sacred Scripture where Peter and John cured the crippled man (Acts 3:1-6) or where Peter raised Tabitha from the dead (Acts 9:36-41) or where Paul exorcised the spirit of divination from the slave girl (Acts 16:16-18). The apostles didn’t merely pray to God for the crippled man but commanded him to walk; Peter didn’t merely pray for Tabitha but commanded her to rise; and Paul didn’t merely pray to God for the slave girl but commanded the spirit of divination to come out of her. It is not idolatrous to petition such a miracle-worker to exercise their God-given gift and work a miracle nor is it idolatrous to thank and praise a miracle-worker for exercising of their God-given gift and working a miracle. And, all the canonized saints in heaven are known miracle-workers, including the Virgin Mary.

A miracle-worker doesn’t work independently of God but with God, as God’s instrument. The miracle-worker can be the instrumental cause of a miracle but God is the principal cause of all true miracles. Therefore, whether we petition a miracle-worker for a miracle or petition God directly, God always deserves our thanks and praise and, of course, God alone deserves our adoration.

Well said. My statement was directed to the poster who said something like “Mary, with the help of God, saved Europe.”

It’s all right as hyperbole, but it could be a stumbling block to those who are still transitioning from Protestantism (or any other faith) to the One True Church.

 

[RPRPsych]

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever (regarding the Blessed Virgin), either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. - Lumen Gentium 67

Strange, that’s exactly the passage I was thinking of, thought I couldn’t quote it from memory. Well said.

 

[angell1]

God did not make Jesus totally dependent on Mary… If there were no Joseph, there wouldn’t have been a Mary or Jesus (as we know them at least… God could easily make anything happen). Further, as a Catholic, I strive to conform myself to the divine will… Not to Mary’s will. I try to pray with Mary to God everyday. Through her prayer to God, she helps me conform to the divine will and receive God’s grace from God, not from Mary…

I know that is not how all see it, but that is how my family does and that is how I teach my children and all I encounter.

what about the tings like the salve regina or hail holy queen? is that too much?