Mary's role in Second Coming

[Sancto_Spiritu]

One can never know them all. And there is always room for improvement.

That’s correct. Because the very nature of a private revelation is that it’s not for everyone: not for the entire Body of Christ. For example, the messages at Fatima weren’t for everyone. They weren’t for people who lived before 1917. There might conceivably come a time when a particular private revelation is no longer of significance to the faithful.

But if the Church approves an apparition as private revelation, then she does so because she’s deemed there to be something beneficial to be had there, for a certain portion of the Body of Christ. And the Church doesn’t approve these apparitions on a whim. They are very throughly researched and gone over with a fine tooth comb.

Which is why I am skeptical of the “one hundred and one” different claimed apparitions.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

The Virgin Mary tells us what she does for a reason. Even back as far as the Old Testament, God warned people before He punished them so that they would have a chance to return to Him peacefully. He sent Jonah to Nineveh, Noah to his world and Moses to Pharaoh, and that’s only Gentiles- we have far more recorded warnings of judgment from the prophets to Israel. Nehemiah, Ezekiel, Obadiah, Amos, etc. Will God do less for the New Israel?

Just look at history, how since the Reformation a tide of division and unbelief has swept over the world. It has grown and grown, building on itself. The Reformation opened the doors to the Enlightenment, which opened the doors to Communism, Postmodernism, Relativism, Atheism, Secularism and a host of other nasty “isms”. Evil has been compounding and building on itself for five hundred years.

Interestingly, the Medieval Ages saw very few Marian apparitions. Why? Virtually the entire known world was Catholic. They didn’t need apparitions as much. But since the world’s moral and religious structure began disintegrating, the number of apparitions of Jesus and Mary has been getting far larger and, I’ve noticed, far more spectacular in the kinds of signs they perform to urge people to believe. The world needs these apparitions now and the Mother of the Church, who is watching her Church bleeding with terrible wounds before her eyes, can’t stand it.

Historically, when God was about to bring a divine judgment on a kingdom, He gave at least one warning first. The Church has approved many apparitions that have warned of impending disaster. Of course we don’t have to believe them, but as the Church says, they are worthy of belief. These apparitions offer many new devotions to protect the world. They’ve offered, to name a few extremely important modern devotions offering hope and grace, the Divine Mercy devotion (given through St. Faustina), the Miraculous Medal devotion (St. Catherine Laboure), the devotions of the Immaculate (Fatima) and Sacred Hearts (St. Margaret Mary), and a repeated offering of the Brown Scapular (Mary offered it again to the Church at Fatima). The Church, like Jesus and Mary, has offered the world new offerings of grace as well, such as the daily Mass and St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin,” ways of being nearest to God that weren’t broadly available in the Medieval Ages. Jesus, His Bride and the Virgin Mary are doing all they can to strengthen the Church and bring the world to salvation.

If we ignore the Marian apparitions, we risk missing the opportunities for salvation and grace opened to mankind by the devotions I just listed. We are living in a world where we’re surrounded by unbelief and skepticism, and sometimes when hardship strikes, this environment makes faith particularly hard to sustain. We need these new devotions. Also, if we ignore the Marian apparitions, we risk being caught unprepared by the disasters they foretell, if those disasters come to pass. If we believe Heaven’s warnings, we’ll seek God more fervently and take advantage of the multitude of graces He has offered the Church in this age of disintegrating values.

The apparitions, and especially the Church-approved ones, should be taken seriously. They are a radical blessing from Heaven. I was astonished when reading about some of the 20th century apparitions, while I was considering converting from Protestantism. Fatima and Zeitoun in particular were so massively spectacular in the signs they performed that they blew my brain. I’d never seen anything like them in Protestantism. Not even close, even though I’d heard of many different miracle stories. Catholicism contains wonders you aren’t going to find elsewhere. We shouldn’t downplay the enormity of grace God pours out on His Church just because it makes our worldviews more comfortable.

SpirituSanctu, God bless you!

I do have a quick comment for you. I recommend that you at least be respectful of the Church-approved apparitions. Since the Church considers them to be “worthy of belief,” you could very well be talking about Jesus and Mary themselves when you dismiss “those apparitions.” At least take these seriously and treat them with respect, even if you don’t believe in them, because of the chance that they really are Jesus and Mary.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

The Virgin Mary tells us what she does for a reason. Even back as far as the Old Testament, God warned people before He punished them so that they would have a chance to return to Him peacefully. He sent Jonah to Nineveh, Noah to his world and Moses to Pharaoh, and that’s only Gentiles- we have far more recorded warnings of judgment from the prophets to Israel. Nehemiah, Ezekiel, Obadiah, Amos, etc. Will God do less for the New Israel?

Just look at history, how since the Reformation a tide of division and unbelief has swept over the world. It has grown and grown, building on itself. The Reformation opened the doors to the Enlightenment, which opened the doors to Communism, Postmodernism, Relativism, Atheism, Secularism and a host of other nasty “isms”. Evil has been compounding and building on itself for five hundred years.

Interestingly, the Medieval Ages saw very few Marian apparitions. Why? Virtually the entire known world was Catholic. They didn’t need apparitions as much. But since the world’s moral and religious structure began disintegrating, the number of apparitions of Jesus and Mary has been getting far larger and, I’ve noticed, far more spectacular in the kinds of signs they perform to urge people to believe. The world needs these apparitions now and the Mother of the Church, who is watching her Church bleeding with terrible wounds before her eyes, can’t stand it.

Historically, when God was about to bring a divine judgment on a kingdom, He gave at least one warning first. The Church has approved many apparitions that have warned of impending disaster. Of course we don’t have to believe them, but as the Church says, they are worthy of belief. These apparitions offer many new devotions to protect the world. They’ve offered, to name a few extremely important modern devotions offering hope and grace, the Divine Mercy devotion (given through St. Faustina), the Miraculous Medal devotion (St. Catherine Laboure), the devotions of the Immaculate (Fatima) and Sacred Hearts (St. Margaret Mary), and a repeated offering of the Brown Scapular (Mary offered it again to the Church at Fatima). The Church, like Jesus and Mary, has offered the world new offerings of grace as well, such as the daily Mass and St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin,” ways of being nearest to God that weren’t broadly available in the Medieval Ages. Jesus, His Bride and the Virgin Mary are doing all they can to strengthen the Church and bring the world to salvation.

If we ignore the Marian apparitions, we risk missing the opportunities for salvation and grace opened to mankind by the devotions I just listed. We are living in a world where we’re surrounded by unbelief and skepticism, and sometimes when hardship strikes, this environment makes faith particularly hard to sustain. We need these new devotions. Also, if we ignore the Marian apparitions, we risk being caught unprepared by the disasters they foretell, if those disasters come to pass. If we believe Heaven’s warnings, we’ll seek God more fervently and take advantage of the multitude of graces He has offered the Church in this age of disintegrating values.

The apparitions, and especially the Church-approved ones, should be taken seriously. They are a radical blessing from Heaven. I was astonished when reading about some of the 20th century apparitions, while I was considering converting from Protestantism. Fatima and Zeitoun in particular were so massively spectacular in the signs they performed that they blew my brain. I’d never seen anything like them in Protestantism. Not even close, even though I’d heard of many different miracle stories. Catholicism contains wonders you aren’t going to find elsewhere. We shouldn’t downplay the enormity of grace God pours out on His Church just because it makes our worldviews more comfortable.

SpirituSanctu, God bless you!

I do have a quick comment for you. I recommend that you at least be respectful of the Church-approved apparitions. Since the Church considers them to be “worthy of belief,” you could very well be talking about Jesus and Mary themselves when you dismiss “those apparitions.” At least take these seriously and treat them with respect, even if you don’t believe in them, because of the chance that they really are Jesus and Mary.

I’m not downplaying these because they make me uncomfortable. I’m downplaying them because I don’t trust them. Unless the Church “approves” them, I am highly skeptical. Why? Well, it’s the same reason I find one big error in your reasoning above.

If these apparitions are designed to foment the growth of the Faith in an increasingly secular world, why are most of the claimed apparitions given to people who are already fervently devout? The ones you read about on SpiritDaily.com are given to “seers” and “prophets” who seem to be just fortune-tellers with a Catholic twist.

You’d think that, to grow the Faith, Mary would appear to people who weren’t already devout. She’s just preaching to the choir!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Yes, there are scary things in the Gospels, but nothing that “foretells” the future. It seems to me that, many times, the Marian apparition enthusiasts try to foretell the future by saying this or that is going to happen.

What about Jesus’ prophecies of the coming destruction of Jerusalem? Jesus did prophecy future disasters, and so did God’s prophets in the Old Testament.

I think that, since Catholicism doesn’t buy into the whole “Revelation rapture” bit, that some people have used the “chastisements” to replace the “end times” in order just to have something to be scared of.

Maybe with some people, that’s true. Others of us are simply trying to take seriously our Lord and His Mother. They’ve given warnings many times in apparitions the Church says are worthy of belief, such as Fatima, La Salette and Akita. There also is solid Biblical precedent of God warning His people before allowing them to suffer or pass through judgment, in order to prepare them (that they might not despair when confronted with great suffering or disasters) and to give them a kick in the pants to start them praying and acting more on behalf of those that are in need or spiritually perishing.

 

[JustaServant]

You’d think that, to grow the Faith, Mary would appear to people who weren’t already devout. She’s just preaching to the choir!

When Jesus rose from the dead He chose only to appear to those who believed in Him.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

When Jesus rose from the dead He chose only to appear to those who believed in Him.

Like Doubting Thomas?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I’m not downplaying these because they make me uncomfortable. I’m downplaying them because I don’t trust them. Unless the Church “approves” them, I am highly skeptical. Why? Well, it’s the same reason I find one big error in your reasoning above.

If these apparitions are designed to foment the growth of the Faith in an increasingly secular world, why are most of the claimed apparitions given to people who are already fervently devout? The ones you read about on SpiritDaily.com are given to “seers” and “prophets” who seem to be just fortune-tellers with a Catholic twist.

You’d think that, to grow the Faith, Mary would appear to people who weren’t already devout. She’s just preaching to the choir!

Have you read about Zeitoun or Fatima? Those signs were for unbelievers and believers alike. And Our Lady of Siluva converted Lithuania, and Our Lady of Guadaloupe converted virtually the whole of Mexico.

I think the big reason why God usually gives visions to those that are very devout is because in that way, the recipients won’t be overwhelmed with pride. It takes a very humble heart to remain faithful when so overwhelmingly blessed.

Often, the apparitions only seen by one or a handful of saints are accompanied by healings and miracles, though, which are designed to bring others to greater faith and to confirm the truth of the apparition’s message. These do have a large impact on local communities, and sometimes they have a large international impact. Other times, Our Blessed Mother or Our Lord go ignored, to the Church’s loss.

I don’t know anything about Spiritdaily.com, but you don’t have to look at dubious sources to believe there’s a chastisement coming up and the Church would do well to prepare itself, and the world, for very hard times. Many Church approved apparitions and saints have given this message, and their words only make logical sense when one considers how for the last five hundred years the world has moved steadily further away from Christ. It’s not all about scaring people. Fear would probably do some people good, though, considering how terrible things may soon get. It might motivate them to do what the Church has always urged them to do. But really, these apparitions are about coming closer to God and bringing others closer to Him as well. I believe Jesus wants to prepare the Church to be close to Him in the hard times He knows are coming.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Like Doubting Thomas?

And Saul/Paul .

But JustaServant’s point is quite correct, that almost everyone Jesus appeared to was one of His followers already. Jesus often gives the greatest graces to those that are closest to Him, probably because only the really humble souls can take it without being overwhelmed by pride. Truly devout souls tend to be the very humble ones that can receive such great graces without being destroyed by them. God is very good to humanity, never giving us more than we can bear.

 

[Jacafamala]

Which is why I am skeptical of the “one hundred and one” different claimed apparitions.

Are you skeptical of the Church approved apparitions?

 

[Catholictrain]

me thinks this thread has been hijacked. Oh well.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Are you skeptical of the Church approved apparitions?

Not necessarily- but I have the option to be, as Catholics aren’t required to believe them.

 

[Jacafamala]

I’m not downplaying these because they make me uncomfortable. I’m downplaying them because I don’t trust them. Unless the Church “approves” them, I am highly skeptical. Why? Well, it’s the same reason I find one big error in your reasoning above.

If these apparitions are designed to foment the growth of the Faith in an increasingly secular world, why are most of the claimed apparitions given to people who are already fervently devout? The ones you read about on SpiritDaily.com are given to “seers” and “prophets” who seem to be just fortune-tellers with a Catholic twist.

You’d think that, to grow the Faith, Mary would appear to people who weren’t already devout. She’s just preaching to the choir!

They are meant for sinners. And for the faithful, to inspire them to pray and make reparation for poor sinners. Mary can only reveal herself to the simplest and humblest of souls. Because of our pride, satan can wreck havoc on anyone else. But her message is for anyone who will listen.

 

[JustaServant]

And Saul/Paul .

But JustaServant’s point is quite correct, that almost everyone Jesus appeared to was one of His followers already. Jesus often gives the greatest graces to those that are closest to Him, probably because only the really humble souls can take it without being overwhelmed by pride. Truly devout souls tend to be the very humble ones that can receive such great graces without being destroyed by them. God is very good to humanity, never giving us more than we can bear.

That is pretty much where I was going. To say Mary is simply ‘preaching to the choir’ is a little disrespectful in my view. When Mary appears she always has on her mind CONVERTS. Also, there were plenty of unbelievers who saw the miracle of the sun at Fatima. Many believed, but many didn’t. Miracles are not a guarantee that people will believe. Look at Israel in the desert. You’ve seen the sea part, led through the desert with a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day, and they STILL did not believe.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Sorry; I’ll stop. I do find the original question very fascinating. I just don’t know the answer . But I do trust it will be amazing!

 

[Jacafamala]

The Virgin Mary tells us what she does for a reason. Even back as far as the Old Testament, God warned people before He punished them so that they would have a chance to return to Him peacefully. He sent Jonah to Nineveh, Noah to his world and Moses to Pharaoh, and that’s only Gentiles- we have far more recorded warnings of judgment from the prophets to Israel. Nehemiah, Ezekiel, Obadiah, Amos, etc. Will God do less for the New Israel?

Just look at history, how since the Reformation a tide of division and unbelief has swept over the world. It has grown and grown, building on itself. The Reformation opened the doors to the Enlightenment, which opened the doors to Communism, Postmodernism, Relativism, Atheism, Secularism and a host of other nasty “isms”. Evil has been compounding and building on itself for five hundred years.

Interestingly, the Medieval Ages saw very few Marian apparitions. Why? Virtually the entire known world was Catholic. They didn’t need apparitions as much. But since the world’s moral and religious structure began disintegrating, the number of apparitions of Jesus and Mary has been getting far larger and, I’ve noticed, far more spectacular in the kinds of signs they perform to urge people to believe. The world needs these apparitions now and the Mother of the Church, who is watching her Church bleeding with terrible wounds before her eyes, can’t stand it.

Historically, when God was about to bring a divine judgment on a kingdom, He gave at least one warning first. The Church has approved many apparitions that have warned of impending disaster. Of course we don’t have to believe them, but as the Church says, they are worthy of belief. These apparitions offer many new devotions to protect the world. They’ve offered, to name a few extremely important modern devotions offering hope and grace, the Divine Mercy devotion (given through St. Faustina), the Miraculous Medal devotion (St. Catherine Laboure), the devotions of the Immaculate (Fatima) and Sacred Hearts (St. Margaret Mary), and a repeated offering of the Brown Scapular (Mary offered it again to the Church at Fatima). The Church, like Jesus and Mary, has offered the world new offerings of grace as well, such as the daily Mass and St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin,” ways of being nearest to God that weren’t broadly available in the Medieval Ages. Jesus, His Bride and the Virgin Mary are doing all they can to strengthen the Church and bring the world to salvation.

If we ignore the Marian apparitions, we risk missing the opportunities for salvation and grace opened to mankind by the devotions I just listed. We are living in a world where we’re surrounded by unbelief and skepticism, and sometimes when hardship strikes, this environment makes faith particularly hard to sustain. We need these new devotions. Also, if we ignore the Marian apparitions, we risk being caught unprepared by the disasters they foretell, if those disasters come to pass. If we believe Heaven’s warnings, we’ll seek God more fervently and take advantage of the multitude of graces He has offered the Church in this age of disintegrating values.

The apparitions, and especially the Church-approved ones, should be taken seriously. They are a radical blessing from Heaven. I was astonished when reading about some of the 20th century apparitions, while I was considering converting from Protestantism. Fatima and Zeitoun in particular were so massively spectacular in the signs they performed that they blew my brain. I’d never seen anything like them in Protestantism. Not even close, even though I’d heard of many different miracle stories. Catholicism contains wonders you aren’t going to find elsewhere. We shouldn’t downplay the enormity of grace God pours out on His Church just because it makes our worldviews more comfortable.

SpirituSanctu, God bless you!

I do have a quick comment for you. I recommend that you at least be respectful of the Church-approved apparitions. Since the Church considers them to be “worthy of belief,” you could very well be talking about Jesus and Mary themselves when you dismiss “those apparitions.” At least take these seriously and treat them with respect, even if you don’t believe in them, because of the chance that they really are Jesus and Mary.

This is a really great post. First rate.

 

[hansard]

Posted by Lief Erikson:
Interestingly, the Medieval Ages saw very few Marian apparitions. Why? Virtually the entire known world was Catholic.

Really? The untold millions in Africa, the Americas, Asia? They weren’t Catholic, I’m pretty sure. And when you say “known world”–known to whom?

 

[AnneElliot]

Not necessarily- but I have the option to be, as Catholics aren’t required to believe them.

You said earlier that you are “skeptical” even of apparitions the Church has deemed worthy of the belief… (did I understand you correctly?)

… does that sit well with you? If you can’t trust the Church to guard the faithful regarding private revelations, how can you trust the Church to define dogmatic pronouncements? Wouldn’t it be a grievous error to allow the faithful to persist in a devotion that was based on deceit? (for if the apparitions deemed worthy of belief are untrue, then they are a lie)

Now, I don’t think you have to have a great devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, but I think you have to recognize it as a legitimate title of Our Lady, and in doing so, recognize that the apparition is indeed worthy of belief.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You said earlier that you are “skeptical” even of apparitions the Church has deemed worthy of the belief… (did I understand you correctly?)

… does that sit well with you? If you can’t trust the Church to guard the faithful regarding private revelations, how can you trust the Church to define dogmatic pronouncements? Wouldn’t it be a grievous error to allow the faithful to persist in a devotion that was based on deceit? (for if the apparitions deemed worthy of belief are untrue, then they are a lie)

Now, I don’t think you have to have a great devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, but I think you have to recognize it as a legitimate title of Our Lady, and in doing so, recognize that the apparition is indeed worthy of belief.

The Church teaches that we do not have to believe in any private revelations.

Do you not trust the Church in this teaching?

 

[AnneElliot]

The Church teaches that we do not have to believe in any private revelations.

Where does the Church teach this?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Where does the Church teach this?

First when it states that they are “worthy of belief”. Notice the word, worthy rather that required.

Also the Catechism of the Catholic Church says (underlined emphasis added);

There will be no further Revelation

66 “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

A Catholic is only bound to believe the deposit of faith, anything else is not required.