Mary's role in Second Coming

[mawatrucki]

oh man look at what I started. Does anyone think that this is off topic?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

oh man look at what I started. Does anyone think that this is off topic?

This seems to happen. When ever someone wants to talk about our Blessed Mother it ends up that someone will bring up their favorite private revelations/apparition and when someone does not share a belief in it (it usually seems to be Fatima) it devolves into a discussion of why one should believe even though the Church does not require such a belief.

Some of those who believe in Fatima seem to think that it should (or is) be part of the dogma of the Church, which it is not as no private message is.

 

[Jacafamala]

I definitely have noticed a trend in the past week here. There are some individuals who seem to like a more stripped or minimal form of Catholicism. Some are unwilling to look at approved Marian apparitions and others don’t want too many private devotions, such as Divine Mercy and the like. This because they fear it will take away from other devotions (see the recent Divine Mercy thread). These things, the devotions, the approved apparitions are all treasures of our Holy Catholic Faith. One needn’t keep every single devotion as their own, but neither should these Church approved private devotions be feared or viewed with skepticism. As Lief Erikson said, we should show them respect.

One of the really amazingly wonderful things about the Faith is it has so much beautiful stuff! God is so generous to us; we’re so lucky!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I definitely have noticed a trend in the past week here. There are some individuals who seem to like a more stripped or minimal form of Catholicism. Some are unwilling to look at approved Marian apparitions and others don’t want too many private devotions, such as Divine Mercy and the like. This because they fear it will take away from other devotions (see the recent Divine Mercy thread). These things, the devotions, the approved apparitions are all treasures of our Holy Catholic Faith. One needn’t keep every single devotion as their own, but neither should these Church approved private devotions be feared or viewed with skepticism. As Lief Erikson said, we should show them respect.

One of the really amazingly wonderful things about the Faith is it has so much beautiful stuff! God is so generous to us; we’re so lucky!

So those who do not agree with you favor a “stripped or minimal form of Catholicism”?

Seems a bit judgmental and offensive.

Especially if they do have some devotions that they like but do not like newer ones.

Also, no private message requires belief, that is what the Church says, not just those who chose not to believe or follow them.

 

[Hesychios]

I’m wondering how this will happen through Mary the second time?

It won’t, don’t kid yourself.

 

[AnneElliot]

I did not claim, nor would I that Marian apparitions are part of the deposit of faith. However, saying one “doesn’t have to believe” in something the Church deems worthy of belief seems create a kind of predicament. The Church is trustworthy in large matters, but not in small ones? I only have to believe what the Church teaches as public revelation, but what the Church recognizes as worthy of belief is some (or all of?) the time not really worthy of belief? How would you explain this to a non-Catholic?

 

[Hesychios]

I did not claim, nor would I that Marian apparitions are part of the deposit of faith. However, saying one “doesn’t have to believe” in something the Church deems worthy of belief seems create a kind of predicament. The Church is trustworthy in large matters, but not in small ones?

As already explained, the Age of Revelation has ended. A Catholic could publicly announce that she does not believe in even one of the Marian apparitions and the church can do absolutely nothing about it. It is literally impossible to prove that an apparition is genuine. The criteria the church uses when examining these things is to find out if the apparition introduces anything new, and really will not be approved unless it says nothing more than the church already teaches, and that means absolutely nothing more.

This is a very important concept to understand, because this position staked out by the church was prompted first by heretics who believed that the Holy Spirit was giving them messages (this was before Marian piety was on the scene). The church cracked down on this very hard. Tertullian fell to this heresy.

If Saint Mary was to say in a message that she was going to have a part in the Second Coming that would be something new that has never been taught by the church.

To make things even more doubtful, it seems the primary source for this concept comes from Saint Louis de Montfort, not in a vision but in the poetic license of his composition… 1,700 years after Christ and the Apostles.

The Vincentian Canon:

(3) Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic,’ as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality , antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.
Vincent of Lerins

Ideas like the one proffered here “Mary’s role in Second Coming” do not pass this muster.

1] They are new ideas, completely unknown to the Apostles
2] They are only known and accepted by a minority even today, and have to be promoted to be understood.
3] They never were held by a majority of Catholic Christians at any time in the past, much less for all time

I only have to believe what the Church teaches as public revelation, but what the Church recognizes as worthy of belief is some (or all of?) the time not really worthy of belief?

The church could become more conservative and stop giving approvals at all. I believe that the approvals that have been given are essentially a concession. It is a way of trying to please everybody by giving the devotees permission but allowing the church to deny it ever introduces new doctrine.

You will recall that whenever a new apparition has arrived there has always been opposition within the church. Reading the stories one could get the idea that these were ‘bad guys’, but they were not. They just had the same concerns that you are expressing here. These “half-way approvals” do not make a lot of sense, but full approval and requiring belief by all the laity could be a dangerous precedent.

It could even open up the case of the Montanists again, perhaps they were condemned by mistake?

 

[Jacafamala]

So those who do not agree with you favor a “stripped or minimal form of Catholicism”?

Seems a bit judgmental and offensive.

Especially if they do have some devotions that they like but do not like newer ones.

Also, no private message requires belief, that is what the Church says, not just those who chose not to believe or follow them.

I’m sorry if you feel judged or offended. That wasn’t my intention at all, I assure you.

Did you miss this in replying to my post? In post #43 said:

One needn’t keep every single devotion as their own, but neither should these Church approved private devotions be feared or viewed with skepticism.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I did not claim, nor would I that Marian apparitions are part of the deposit of faith. However, saying one “doesn’t have to believe” in something the Church deems worthy of belief seems create a kind of predicament. The Church is trustworthy in large matters, but not in small ones? I only have to believe what the Church teaches as public revelation, but what the Church recognizes as worthy of belief is some (or all of?) the time not really worthy of belief? How would you explain this to a non-Catholic?

Easy, I would explain that they are not part of the deposit of faith and therefore do not require any assent by an individual believer, which is exactly what the Church teaches.

Your view says that it is not part of the deposit of faith but that we must believe, which is illogical as it says that you do not have to believe but you do have to believe.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’m sorry if you feel judged or offended. That wasn’t my intention at all, I assure you.

Did you miss this in replying to my post? In post #43 said:

I am not offended in any way. I understand my Catholic faith and know that the practice of or believe in any private devotion is required just the same as it is for private messages/devotions.

Just as people are free to promote their favorite devotions, people are free to point out their issues with them.

I also know that the practice of any private devotions is not required to be fully Catholic. To say that those who do not wish to do so want a “minimal form” of Catholicism is wrong. Many get by on what the Church has.

No private devotions make up any regular part of my spiritual life. Daily Mass, daily recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours in community, along with my private prayer and scripture reading is enough.

The biggest use of private devotions that I will speak out against is their use in a public setting.

 

[Jacafamala]

I am not offended in any way. I understand my Catholic faith and know that the practice of or believe in any private devotion is required just the same as it is for private messages/devotions.

Just as people are free to promote their favorite devotions, people are free to point out their issues with them.

I also know that the practice of any private devotions is not required to be fully Catholic. To say that those who do not wish to do so want a “minimal form” of Catholicism is wrong. Many get by on what the Church has.

No private devotions make up any regular part of my spiritual life. Daily Mass, daily recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours in community, along with my private prayer and scripture reading is enough.

The biggest use of private devotions that I will speak out against is their use in a public setting.

Ok, tons of questions here…

First off, who said anything about your not being fully Catholic?

Secondly, why can’t private devotions be practiced publicly? You mean like a group Rosary? In your opinion, what exactly oughtn’t to be practiced in public?

Next, daily Mass, daily recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours in community, along with private prayer and scripture reading are all good things. But why do you feel it’s enough and no more–ever? Is it all set in stone for you?

Why do you have issues with Church approved devotions?

Byz, you wrote, “I am not offended in any way. I understand my Catholic faith and know that the practice of or believe in any private devotion is required just the same as it is for private messages/devotions.” would you please explain this. It doesn’t seem to make any sense to me.

 

[AnneElliot]

Your view says that it is not part of the deposit of faith but that we must believe, which is illogical as it says that you do not have to believe but you do have to believe.

I did not say that one must believe. At all. What I said what that it seems odd (to say the least) that the Church could approve of something as “worthy of belief” when it’s not really worthy of belief.

Hesychios,
I was not promoting any Marian apparition(s) in this thread. I was simply asking a question.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ok, tons of questions here…

First off, who said anything about your not being fully Catholic?

I definitely have noticed a trend in the past week here. There are some individuals who seem to like a more stripped or minimal form of Catholicism.

Secondly, why can’t private devotions be practiced publicly? You mean like a group Rosary? In your opinion, what exactly oughtn’t to be practiced in public?

I do not agree with private devotions being done in a public setting. We have public liturgies that can be done.

A private prayer group or meeting that prays the rosary is not what I am talking about as that is not, technically, a public setting.

Next, daily Mass, daily recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours in community, along with private prayer and scripture reading are all good things. But why do you feel it’s enough and no more–ever? Is it all set in stone for you?

It is enough for me and my spiritual life is not really open for discussion here at the forum, it is between me, my formators and superiors, and my spiritual director.

Why do you have issues with Church approved devotions?

No where did I say that I have issues with any Church approved devotions.

Only one do I question, though I have practiced it in the past, is the Divine Mercy Chaplet, as my reading of St Faustina’s Diary it seems that this chaplet was given to her for her private use.

I spoke out here because you stated that those who have issues with private devotions do so because they “seem to like a more stripped or minimal form of Catholicism”, this is what I disagree with.

Byz, you wrote, “I am not offended in any way. I understand my Catholic faith and know that the practice of or believe in any private devotion is required just the same as it is for private messages/devotions.” would you please explain this. It doesn’t seem to make any sense to me.

We are not required to practice any of the private devotions nor are we required to assent to any of the private messages or apparitions to be Catholic. I do not know how I can state that in any other way.

I work with RCIA and some people who come into that program have been told by Catholics that they must pray the Hail Mary and/or the Rosary to be Catholic, that they must believe in Fatima, all that is just plain false.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I spoke out here because you stated that those who have issues with private devotions do so because they “seem to like a more stripped or minimal form of Catholicism”, this is what I disagree with.

It probably depends who you’re talking about. I also have met people who seem to prefer a “more stripped or minimal form of Catholicism.” Sometimes people who reject apparitions fall into that category. Not always. I don’t think Jacafamala meant to take a swipe at everyone who has problems with apparitions. And some people do seem to prefer a stripped down or “easy” Catholicism so that they have more time to spend on their daily routines or pleasure activities. Also, some are influenced heavily by our science-focused culture that glorifies repeatable experiments and doesn’t accept anything that can’t be put on a table and measured.

We are not required to practice any of the private devotions nor are we required to assent to any of the private messages or apparitions to be Catholic. I do not know how I can state that in any other way.

I work with RCIA and some people who come into that program have been told by Catholics that they must pray the Hail Mary and/or the Rosary to be Catholic, that they must believe in Fatima, all that is just plain false.

Jacafamala isn’t trying to say you have to do those things to be Catholic. I think what she’s saying is that those devotions or prayers can enrich people’s faith, and missing them can sometimes expose people’s faith to damage they otherwise would have been protected from. The Rosary, the Hail Mary and other devotions or prayers have real benefits for those that practice them, and people that abstain from devotions certainly won’t always receive everything from God that those practicing the devotions will. Skipping these devotions is skipping blessings.

But of course people can do that and still be Catholic and still go to Heaven. I don’t think anyone here is arguing against that, though unfortunately you’ve encountered people that have been mistaken in that way.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It probably depends who you’re talking about. I also have met people who seem to prefer a “more stripped or minimal form of Catholicism.” Sometimes people who reject apparitions fall into that category. Not always. I don’t think Jacafamala meant to take a swipe at everyone who has problems with apparitions. And some people do seem to prefer a stripped down or “easy” Catholicism so that they have more time to spend on their daily routines or pleasure activities. Also, some are influenced heavily by our science-focused culture that glorifies repeatable experiments and doesn’t accept anything that can’t be put on a table and measured.

Jacafamala isn’t trying to say you have to do those things to be Catholic. I think what she’s saying is that those devotions or prayers can enrich people’s faith, and missing them can sometimes expose people’s faith to damage they otherwise would have been protected from. The Rosary, the Hail Mary and other devotions or prayers have real benefits for those that practice them, and people that abstain from devotions certainly won’t always receive everything from God that those practicing the devotions will. Skipping these devotions is skipping blessings.

But of course people can do that and still be Catholic and still go to Heaven. I don’t think anyone here is arguing against that, though unfortunately you’ve encountered people that have been mistaken in that way.

I am sorry, but for me, when one equates a lack of private devotions to a “stripped down” or “minimal form” of Catholicism, there is something wrong.

Private devotions are extras, while they add to Catholicism, the lack of them does not mean that something is missing, again, they are extras that are not required.

To say that someone who does what is required is favoring some form of minimalism is wrong.

 

[Jacafamala]

I do not agree with private devotions being done in a public setting. We have public liturgies that can be done.

A private prayer group or meeting that prays the rosary is not what I am talking about as that is not, technically, a public setting.

Do you think it’s an alright idea for people to pray the Rosary as a group in Church prior to the Mass?

It is enough for me and my spiritual life is not really open for discussion here at the forum, it is between me, my formators and superiors, and my spiritual director.

With all due respect, you are the one who brought up your spiritual life. I don’t mean to pry. I’m merely trying to understand where you’re coming from. I’m trying to understand how you can say the things you’ve said. Because your ideas are foreign to my understanding.

No where did I say that I have issues with any Church approved devotions.

Let me clarify, then.

post #19 Bzy:They are not binding and no one is required to believe in any of them. A faithful Catholic can believe that none of the apparitions that are deemed worthy of belief are real.

If the Church pronounces something worthy of belief, is it disrespectful to say that it isn’t worthy of belief? Perhaps you didn’t mean it exactly that way. Do you agree that you can chose to not make it part of your personal devotion, but as to whether or not something is deemed as being worthy of belief, can your opinions really be in direct opposition to that of Holy Mother Church? This is what I want to know.

Only one do I question, though I have practiced it in the past, is the Divine Mercy Chaplet, as my reading of St Faustina’s Diary it seems that this chaplet was given to her for her private use.

Mmm, I’ve read her diary and I’d say not. Clearly she stated several times over this is something meant for all who will partake of it.

I spoke out here because you stated that those who have issues with private devotions do so because they “seem to like a more stripped or minimal form of Catholicism”, this is what I disagree with.

In all honesty, it’s a huge concern of mine. I look around and see stripped down churches devoid of statues and prayer candles. Few Rosaries being said as a community. you go into the homes of Catholics and they’re no different than anyone else’s. They’re Protestant looking. No statues, no prayer cards out on display. This would be unheard of in Catholicism but a few decades ago. I feel to a large extent we’ve been robbed of our spiritual heritage by those who would rather we were more appealing to Protestants. It grieves me very much. So, that’s where I’m coming from. But it wasn’t meant to be a personal attack on anyone here at the forum, yourself or anyone else.

We are not required to practice any of the private devotions nor are we required to assent to any of the private messages or apparitions to be Catholic. I do not know how I can state that in any other way.

You don’t need to. I get the picture.

I work with RCIA and some people who come into that program have been told by Catholics that they must pray the Hail Mary and/or the Rosary to be Catholic, that they must believe in Fatima, all that is just plain false.

Well, I would never say that, that they must. Still in all, I don’t apologize to anyone for wearing the brown scapular, for praying the rosary and for keeping the traditions that were our grandparents and great grandparents, all the way back to ancient times.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Jacafamala,

This post was not directed at me, but I would like to comment.

Do you think it’s an alright idea for people to pray the Rosary as a group in Church prior to the Mass?

I think that if there is time for it, the faithful should be allowed to pray the rosary in the church, or in the church hall or out at the grotto. However that is not a liturgical celebration, it would be far better for the parish to introduce (or at least try to introduce) the LOTH, which is the liturgical cycle and far more important than the rosary.

Now if the idea here is to pray the rosary between Masses, they had best be quick about it because in many parishes those Masses are stacked up pretty close together , in my area twenty minutes at most between them.

If the Church pronounces something worthy of belief, is it disrespectful to say that it isn’t worthy of belief?

I think that if someone does not believe in an apparition, they should be free to say just that, and if asked they can give their reasons.

Do you agree that you can chose to not make it part of your personal devotion, but as to whether or not something is deemed as being worthy of belief, can your opinions really be in direct opposition to that of Holy Mother Church? This is what I want to know.

If you or I don’t believe it, that means that we do not think it is worthy of belief.

Just for the record, I personally don’t believe in most of those apparitions. I think that most people who know me already realize that.

In all honesty, it’s a huge concern of mine. I look around and see stripped down churches devoid of statues and prayer candles. Few Rosaries being said as a community. you go into the homes of Catholics and they’re no different than anyone else’s. They’re Protestant looking. No statues, no prayer cards out on display. This would be unheard of in Catholicism but a few decades ago. I feel to a large extent we’ve been robbed of our spiritual heritage by those who would rather we were more appealing to Protestants. It grieves me very much. So, that’s where I’m coming from.

I know how you feel.

However, (I have stated this before elsewhere) I really don’t think the absence of statues, prayer cards and such in peoples homes has anything to do with making the church more appealing to Protestants. Most of the people are really disinclined toward that kind of spirituality in the home at present.

When I was growing up the homes of my parents and relatives each had a Holy Water font at the door, a crucifix with full corpus in every bed room, a depiction of the Last Supper over the kitchen door, an image of the Sacred Heart in some conspicuous spot and a Last Rites kit somewhere.

One will often find that it is the recent converts who most wholeheartedly embrace these sacramentals.

It also saddens me that these things are not as important to the average Catholic today, but I will not put the blame on some master plan to make the church more appealing to outsiders, it really is how most Catholics are in North America these days. It is the culture of today.

I work with RCIA and some people who come into that program have been told by Catholics that they must pray the Hail Mary and/or the Rosary to be Catholic, that they must believe in Fatima, all that is just plain false.

Brother David has a made very good point here.

I have seen this many times myself. When Catholics tell new Catholics or candidates that they must pray the rosary, or that they must believe in Fatima or Lourdes they are lying to these new people. It is just not so and never was.

 

[atg2]

hello, are there variants in Catholicism? like in the English & Irish Catholics? regards

 

[Bob_Crowley]

But what reasons are those?

Mary basically says “be good, kids.” And, if you’re good, you have nothing to worry about. So why worry?

She’s been giving us some dire warnings, particularly at Akita eg. “You have no idea what’s being prepared for you if you do not change.”

My old Protestant pastor also thought that her appearances were a judgment on a divided church.

 

[Jacafamala]

Hi Jacafamala,

This post was not directed at me, but I would like to comment. I think that if there is time for it, the faithful should be allowed to pray the rosary in the church, or in the church hall or out at the grotto. However that is not a liturgical celebration, it would be far better for the parish to introduce (or at least try to introduce) the LOTH, which is the liturgical cycle and far more important than the rosary.

Now if the idea here is to pray the rosary between Masses, they had best be quick about it because in many parishes those Masses are stacked up pretty close together , in my area twenty minutes at most between them.

At my church they pray the Rosary before each Mass while Confessions are being heard. It only takes twenty minutes.

I think that if someone does not believe in an apparition, they should be free to say just that, and if asked they can give their reasons.

If you or I don’t believe it, that means that we do not think it is worthy of belief.

Just for the record, I personally don’t believe in most of those apparitions. I think that most people who know me already realize that.

I think many of them are true and matter. The ones that the Church has deemed worthy of belief, I read about. If the Church deems it worthy of belief, and the Blessed Mother came to tell me something, I want to hear what it is.

I know how you feel.

However, (I have stated this before elsewhere) I really don’t think the absence of statues, prayer cards and such in peoples homes has anything to do with making the church more appealing to Protestants. Most of the people are really disinclined toward that kind of spirituality in the home at present.

Yes, this is the irony of the situation: ultimately the toning down of devotions usually doesn’t make Catholicism more appealing to Protestants. Rather it simply validates their own practices.

When I was growing up the homes of my parents and relatives each had a Holy Water font at the door, a crucifix with full corpus in every bed room, a depiction of the Last Supper over the kitchen door, an image of the Sacred Heart in some conspicuous spot and a Last Rites kit somewhere.

One will often find that it is the recent converts who most wholeheartedly embrace these sacramentals.

It also saddens me that these things are not as important to the average Catholic today, but I will not put the blame on some master plan to make the church more appealing to outsiders, it really is how most Catholics are in North America these days. It is the culture of today.

I just finished this read. I’d like to share it with you.

tantumdicverbo.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.html

Brother David has a made very good point here.

I’m just concerned to see devotions and our attention to approved apparitions falling by the wayside.

I have seen this many times myself. When Catholics tell new Catholics or candidates that they must pray the rosary, or that they must believe in Fatima or Lourdes they are lying to these new people. It is just not so and never was.

Interesting, I’ve never seen this myself. I’ve seen the opposite in my area. I’ve seen a Youth Ministry Leader discredit the Rosary before a room full of teenagers saying it’s old fashioned and no one prays it anymore. Which is in part why I now assist at a traditional parish. I couldn’t take the disrespect to the Blessed Mother.

People should be encouraged to pray the Rosary, our Lady has requested this many times over. But it’s not an obligation that the Church has put on us under pain of sin.