Mary's Room

[Flatty10]

Mary lives her entire life in a room devoid of colour—she has never directly experienced colour in her entire life, though she is capable of it. Through black-and-white books and other media, she is educated on neuroscience to the point where she becomes an expert on the subject. Mary learns everything there is to know about the perception of colour in the brain, as well as the physical facts about how light works in order to create the different colour wavelengths. It can be said that Mary is aware of all physical facts about colour and colour perception.

After Mary’s studies on colour perception in the brain are complete, she exits the room and experiences, for the very first time, direct colour perception. She sees the colour red for the very first time, and learns something new about it — namely, what red looks like.

Does Mary learn anything new???

If Yes… then…

Does God learn anything new when he becomes a physical being (man)?

If yes…what does that say about omniscience?

 

[awatkins69]

Does God learn anything new when he becomes a physical being (man)?

If yes…what does that say about omniscience?

Great question. I honestly don’t know enough about theology to answer myself, but I’m going to see if Saint Thomas Aquinas has anything to say in the Summa, and get back to you.

 

[Totterman]

Good question,but God has teached us all we need to know and to do,and if He teaches us,He knows all the ansvers as well. The best exampel comes from the Bible when Jesus is 12 years old,He is asking things in the tempel,but He knows all the ansvers already,that is why He says that where else would I be but in my fathers house. So God want learn anything,He knows all. Blessings,Totterman

 

[Flatty10]

yeah i understand that but im talking prior incarnation.

1)Prior incarnation God knows all.

2)God then becomes man.

3)God then learns what is to be a man (experiences it)

4)God therefor prior incarnation does not know all

 

[danserr]

Mary lives her entire life in a room devoid of colour—she has never directly experienced colour in her entire life, though she is capable of it. Through black-and-white books and other media, she is educated on neuroscience to the point where she becomes an expert on the subject. Mary learns everything there is to know about the perception of colour in the brain, as well as the physical facts about how light works in order to create the different colour wavelengths. It can be said that Mary is aware of all physical facts about colour and colour perception.

After Mary’s studies on colour perception in the brain are complete, she exits the room and experiences, for the very first time, direct colour perception. She sees the colour red for the very first time, and learns something new about it — namely, what red looks like.

Does Mary learn anything new???

If Yes… then…

Does God learn anything new when he becomes a physical being (man)?

If yes…what does that say about omniscience?

I have heard two answers on the subject.

1). A philosophy student I was once talking to explained a way that God could learn something about what it was like to be man without it diminishing his omniscience. He said if you define omniscience as “knowledge of all true propositions” (you can say knowledge of all facts if you prefer), then you can say that God learns what it is like to become man, but this does not impact his omniscience.

2). My preferred view. I think the above view is a problem, since even if you take omniscience to mean what the student suggested, to suggest that God’s gains or learns something by becoming man still seems to me (and to the theologian David Hart, “The Doors of the Sea”) to suppose some defect or in God, and I think a Thomist view would say that God is without defect.

Since I think we have to conclude that God is without defect, I think number 2 is far more plausible and we have to affirm that God learns nothing new while becoming man. The difference with Mary is that she was not perfect, while God is. Humans typically learn through sense perception, but God’s knowledge does not come from sense perception, but through a simple direct perception of reality.

At least, such are my thoughts.

 

[colmcille1]

yeah i understand that but im talking prior incarnation.

1)Prior incarnation God knows all.

2)God then becomes man.

3)God then learns what is to be a man (experiences it)

4)God therefor prior incarnation does not know all

Hi Flatty,
A very good topic.
Do the four steps above not pessuppose that God becomes wholly man? IOW, God is three beings in one; and His Unity knows that man will be imperfect as only His Son was perfect man. Yet God knows His Son completely and His Son knows His Father because He(Jesus) knows and guides imperfect man.
This is the way I understand it.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[slywakka250]

I would consider the idea that God is outside of time; God is eternal and everlasting, and unchanging. For him to learn anything, would also mean he would have to change. Since God is outside time, in a sense before the incarnation, the incarnation had already occured, and therefore its possible that God already knew everything “learned from the incarnation” , prior to the incarnation.

 

[MarianD]

Perhaps God’s All-Knowingness surpasses our understanding in such a way that He knows everything without having to experience anything? His learning process is not the same as ours, simply because He never had to learn anything. He didn’t have to study for the test because He made the test, so He already knows the answers and how the test-taker feels when he/she takes the test.

 

[slywakka250]

does God know what it feels like to sin?
does God know what it feels like to be separated from God by original sin or mortal sin?
does God know what it feels like to be damned forever in hell?

I’m not sure…

 

[fhansen]

Mary lives her entire life in a room devoid of colour—she has never directly experienced colour in her entire life, though she is capable of it. Through black-and-white books and other media, she is educated on neuroscience to the point where she becomes an expert on the subject. Mary learns everything there is to know about the perception of colour in the brain, as well as the physical facts about how light works in order to create the different colour wavelengths. It can be said that Mary is aware of all physical facts about colour and colour perception.

After Mary’s studies on colour perception in the brain are complete, she exits the room and experiences, for the very first time, direct colour perception. She sees the colour red for the very first time, and learns something new about it — namely, what red looks like.

Does Mary learn anything new???

If Yes… then…

Does God learn anything new when he becomes a physical being (man)?

If yes…what does that say about omniscience?

It’s funny, I thought you were going somewhere else with this because it sounded like a lead up about someone who’s learned everything about God, faith, religion and thinks they know what it’s all about and then is suddenly granted a “vision”, or a direct experience of God, and realizes he had only possessed head knowledge up to that point.

In any case, I would think that the creator of beings such as ourselves, as well as the colors they perceive, would have full knowledge of those perceptions, at the very least. Just my 2 cents.

 

[joeantony]

yeah i understand that but im talking prior incarnation.

1)Prior incarnation God knows all.Yes it is true.Just like he continues to know everything post incarnation.If he knows “all” how would the "experience to be a man"be outside that “All”?

2)God then becomes man. I know I can’t challenge the sequence.

3)God then learns what is to be a man (experiences it)-Well… God created something and doesn’t know what he created? He created us in His likeness,so he must be knowing us better than ourselves in perfection.

4)God therefor prior incarnation does not know allThat contradicts the scriptures. I am sure I don’t have to list the verses.You mean to say His incarnation was an experiment?

.

With prayers,
Joe

 

[joeantony]

does God know what it feels like to sin?
does God know what it feels like to be separated from God by original sin or mortal sin?
does God know what it feels like to be damned forever in hell?

I’m not sure…

Hi,

1-God knows what it feels like to sin, because it hurts him the most. But He cannot sin, Only good things come from God.
2-Yes-If he know how it feels like to be with his people, then he surely know how it feels like not to be with them.
3-Yes God know how it feels like to be damned forever in hell otherwise he would not have kept that as the punishment.

I know I am not giving you a theological answer and I am not qualified for such an answer.

Do we bring all these issues with God simply because WE are incapable of understanding our God completely ? Isn’t that our trait with which God made us, imperfection? and we are doubting if He knows all ?

Prayers,
Joe

 

[JohnDamian]

Two main answers;

“No knowledge in Christ increased in essence, but merely by experience”

Aquinas - Summa; 3; q12 art2

“There was no acquired knowlege in Christ.”

Scotus - Ordinatio; 3d14 question 3.