Mary's "Saving Office"

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The woman of revelation certainly ties into this debate about how much of Mary’s life, office, and state contributes to our salvation presently. It’s pretty clear that the woman in the sun cannot be the blessed virgin, because she is experiencing pain in labour. Take the Immaculate Conception, or take Mary-of-Revelation, but don’t try to have both.

I respect the fact that the mother of the King (David, Christ) is the Queen (Mary). Kings still rule and guide directly, however. 🙂 It is a weak & immature king who needs to reign through the regent.
 
The woman of revelation certainly ties into this debate about how much of Mary’s life, office, and state contributes to our salvation presently. It’s pretty clear that the woman in the sun cannot be the blessed virgin, because she is experiencing pain in labour. Take the Immaculate Conception, or take Mary-of-Revelation, but don’t try to have both.

I respect the fact that the mother of the King (David, Christ) is the Queen (Mary). Kings still rule and guide directly, however. 🙂 It is a weak & immature king who needs to reign through the regent.
The woman of Revelation 12 certainly is Israel. The more I study the prayers to Mary and the teaching of Rome about her, the sicker I feel inside. The things foolishly decreed in those places ascribes position and saving power to her that ranks as the highest blasphemy. Jesus and the apostles would literally vomit if they were back on earth in their human form and saw this bizarre perversion of Mariology! Are you kidding me? Though Rome would never say it in words, she truly takes the place of Jesus in Rome’s decrees. Thankfully and understandably, Sacred scripture is completely void of such heresy. When Elizabeth said Mary was the mother of her Lord, she and the Holy Spirit who spoke through her merely meant that she birthed the physical part of him. But you would think, by listening to Rome, that Mary also did the Holy Spirit’s work in the conception! Oh my!!
 
The woman of Revelation 12 certainly is Israel. The more I study the prayers to Mary and the teaching of Rome about her, the sicker I feel inside. The things foolishly decreed in those places ascribes position and saving power to her that ranks as the highest blasphemy. Jesus and the apostles would literally vomit if they were back on earth in their human form and saw this bizarre perversion of Mariology! Are you kidding me? Though Rome would never say it in words, she truly takes the place of Jesus in Rome’s decrees. Thankfully and understandably, Sacred scripture is completely void of such heresy. When Elizabeth said Mary was the mother of her Lord, she and the Holy Spirit who spoke through her merely meant that she birthed the physical part of him. But you would think, by listening to Rome, that Mary also did the Holy Spirit’s work in the conception! Oh my!!
Hmmmm. That is harsh. Hard to argue with, but strong. You sound like Luther!
 
Hmmmm. That is harsh. Hard to argue with, but strong. You sound like Luther!
Dude, have you read the prayers and teachings? You would think they’d encrypt it so thinking, biblically sound Christians couldn’t detect how faulty they are!
 
Yeh, I wonder why they pray to her so much and talk about her power as if she is the Savior? Maybe they don’t know how to approach the Father through the Son. I love prayer. Such an awesome experience. I can go right into the Father’s presence in Jesus’ name, and the Holy Spirit guides me. Maybe they don’t know how.
 
I think that is exactly where the doctrines came from. Profound failure to move the hand of God through the normal path of prayer Jesus clearly laid out. So they inflate Mary’s identity and tell people they can get her to bend Jesus’ arm!! Wow, wow, wow.
 
.the more the born again people, who comprise the Body of Christ, simply immerse themselves in the word of God (something once called a sin by Rome), the more error becomes obvious and the real thing becomes glorious.
Don’t be silly, The Catholic Church never called reading the Bible a sin. What is sinful is spreading slanderous information, which your statement is doing. As for interpreting the Bible, there’s a reason why there are thousands of different denominations: they all have many contradicting interpretations of Scripture:shrug:
The woman of Revelation 12 certainly is Israel.
The Early Church recognized in the Woman, both Mary herself who gave actual birth to Jesus Christ. This Woman of Revelation 12 represents Mary, the Mother of the Redeemer, but at the same time she also represents the whole Church, the People of God of all times
The more I study the prayers to Mary and the teaching of Rome about her, the sicker I feel inside.
I would suggest you get off the diet of lies and anti-catholic propaganda which you are reading off websites which are making you feel sick. Simply read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to get the authentic teachings of the Church. Never forget that the Church is at war against spiritual forces, who spread lies, half truths; the father of lies is really good at slandering the Church…
Though Rome would never say it in words, she truly takes the place of Jesus in Rome’s decrees.
The fact that you say this is only making you look uneducated. Mary is merely a creature; Jesus is God. This is basic Catholicism.
Thankfully and understandably, Sacred scripture is completely void of such heresy.
Heresy is always rooted in the misinterpretation of Sacred Scripture.
When Elizabeth said Mary was the mother of her Lord, she and the Holy Spirit who spoke through her merely meant that she birthed the physical part of him.
You inadvertently repeating the Arian heresy. The reason Mary is called The Mother of God, is to defend the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. TYour statement, if unfolded, would deny the Hypostatic Union, which teaches that Jesus Christ is both God and Man…
 
Bodyandblood999;10706726 So they inflate Mary’s identity and tell people they can get her to bend Jesus’ arm!! . [/QUOTE said:
Don’t be silly. Mary didn’t twist Jesus’ arm when He turned water into wine. She simply told Him the wine ran out.

Understand that Mary’s role is to help us know and love Jesus more. After all, He was her son. Jesus is our intercessor between us and His Father. Mary intercedes on our behalf with Jesus, much like at the wedding feast in Cana, but also, much like when youur mother prays for you to God. Do you get upset when your mom prays for you?

But realize that in the Old Testament, the king’s mother had an intercessory role between the people and the king. In the New Covenant, Jesus is a King. Thus His mother has a special place in His Kingdom too.👍
 
So they inflate Mary’s identity and tell people they can get her to bend Jesus’ arm!! Wow, wow, wow.
I just can’t get over this idea that Mary communicates all the gifts of eternal salvation to us. Wow.
Yeh, I wonder why they pray to her so much and talk about her power as if she is the Savior? .
So, what I’ve gleaned from this discussion thus far, is that none of you appear to be candidates for the Brown Scapular…correct?

Peace, Mark
 
The woman of revelation certainly ties into this debate about how much of Mary’s life, office, and state contributes to our salvation presently. It’s pretty clear that the woman in the sun cannot be the blessed virgin, because she is experiencing pain in labour. Take the Immaculate Conception, or take Mary-of-Revelation, but don’t try to have both.

I respect the fact that the mother of the King (David, Christ) is the Queen (Mary). Kings still rule and guide directly, however. 🙂 It is a weak & immature king who needs to reign through the regent.
I think you are creating a false dilemma here. Have you read the original documents for Revelation? My understanding is that the Greek verb used in that line was Anguish. This does not necessarily mean that someone is having a pain due to child birth but could be used to refer to externally caused pain. So it is understood in Catholic theology that the birth in revelation refers to Mary becoming the mother of all members of Christ at the foot of the cross while in deep agony in seeing her son crucified. Mary was the natural mother of Christ but is also the spiritual mother of us all.

So there is really no dilemma here as you suggest.

Second issue I have with your comment is that you are doing an awful lot of interpretation and condemnation of the Catholic Church’s interpretation. If I may ask, as I asked another person in a different thread, what authority do you have to think you have the authority to interpret Scripture? Or authority to expound teachings of Christianity for that matter? Keep in mind that this particular matter regarding authority must be settled through reason. Not Scripture. Why? Because without authority, a claim that a book is the Word of God is just as unacceptable to begin with.

So let me explain the Catholic position as you try to answer the above. The Catholic position is that
  1. Historicity of Death and Resurrection of Jesus proves his authority to teach and be knowledgeable of Transcendent truths
  2. Jesus was a rabbi who had chosen students - Apostles
  3. Since rabbi’s passed down their authority to their chosen students, the Apostles have the authority to teach the truths regarding Jesus and what he has revealed about the Transcendent
  4. The Apostles themselves had chosen students - Apostolic Successors
  5. Therefore it is within natural reason to now accept the authority of the Apostolic Successors
  6. The Apostolic Successors are present in the Catholic Church
  7. Therefore anyone who wants to be a follower of Jesus must assent to the authority of the Catholic Church
This Church teaches that it is the final authority in interpreting Tradition and Scripture. We listen to it, not because it makes sense but because it is the Authority. We don’t listen to Luther, ourselves, or some other person who proclaims himself a Theologian and Expert because they have no authority unless the Church accepts them.

Now unless you can refute the above line of reasoning that a Catholic uses, the Catholic position stands.
 
When you pray to Mary, you do it because you think she can accomplish something you can’t, and that is…well…I will hold my tongue and just say it slaps right against what Jesus said when He said, “If you ask ANYTHING in MY NAME, I will do it!” So what more power could He offer you, if you are saved, and why in the world would He not have said, “But if you want to pray a super duper prayer, forget praying directly to me, ask my mom to talk to me, because her prayers are much more effective.” He never ONCE mentions his mother regarding prayer, and there are many other invitations to pray! Every born again person is a priest AND a saint, according to Scripture, and because of their being in Christ and He in them, and because of the right to pray in his name that He has given them, they can go right to the Father in Jesus’ name. Making anything more important than that is to admit completely missing what Jesus taught about prayer. Do you not see your error here?
When Jesus said “If you ask ANYTHING in MY NAME, I will do it!”, do you think it means that if you were a sinner who had squandered the many Graces he had given you, he will still look upon you with favor?

One of the biggest stumbling blocks for people to understand Mary is their lack of understanding of their own iniquity. Mary is someone who did the will of God perfectly. She was exalted by Christ himself as the Queen of Heaven and the Mother of us all. She intercedes on behalf of us sinners. The Prayers of the righteous are more pleasing to God (James 5:16). So who do you think has the best chance of being heard? You and I that have committed a ton of sins in our lives and some more since the last time we had a confession? Or Mary who has committed no sin and had also been preserved beforehand by Christ from the stain of Original Sin?

Bottom line here is the following. You are questioning how Christ wants it to be. Christ has made his mother the mother of us all and Queen of Heaven. God had chosen Mary to be the mother of Christ though he had no need to seek the assistance or consent of a human to be incarnated. Who are we to question the ways of God?

All I can see here is you saying “But it does not make sense to me. Seems unnecessary etc”. Well you know what, that is not much different from the Muslim who has issue with wrapping his/her head around the truth that God became man. But we know he did because Jesus proved the authority of his claims (that he is the son of God) through his death and resurrection. We know he claimed to be the son of God because the Church teaches that he did. We know the Church has authority to teach because it consists of the Apostolic Successors (Refer to Post 50 above for more information).

So Christianity is not about embracing what makes sense to you regarding the supernatural or transcendent truths. Christianity is about learning and obeying what God has revealed. We know what God has revealed through the Church and her guidance. The Bible is said to be the word of God by the Church. It is not a verifiable truth but we accept it because the Church, which has the authority Jesus has given her, says so. This same Church says that it has the final authority to teach and interpret Scripture and Tradition. So we accept all it teaches, not because the teaching makes sense to you, but because it makes sense (through natural reasoning) that the Church is the one with the authority.
 
Dude, have you read the prayers and teachings? You would think they’d encrypt it so thinking, biblically sound Christians couldn’t detect how faulty they are!
When you say that the language is saying too much, this requires that you actually know the philosophical background behind it. The title “Mary, Mother of God” is used in Scripture is it not? Why should we be hesitant or uncomfortable to use the same words?

Also, what makes you think that you can detect transcendent truths as being true or false as a mere human being? Moreover, who is to say that you are biblically sound? You may know every word in the Bible but it does not mean that you have the ability to authoritatively interpret it, yes? I may know every number and letter in an equation of Quantum physics but it does not mean that I can CORRECTLY understand and interpret what it describes. In fact, someone who is an expert will have to tell me whether my interpretation and understanding is correct. Think of how important the role of the expert authority is when it comes to truths that you cannot directly verify (like heaven, hell, word of God etc)?

Well, that expert Authority is the Catholic Church. It has spoken and said that Protestant interpretations leave much to be desired and are in fact outright wrong at times. So to say that “I am Biblically sound and it has lead me to disagree with the Catholic Church” is stating an oxymoron.
 
So, what I’ve gleaned from this discussion thus far, is that none of you appear to be candidates for the Brown Scapular…correct?

Peace, Mark
I was enrolled in the brown scapular just after I was baptized 2 years ago. The question I posed in the beginning of this thread has nothing to do with denial. 🙂
I think you are creating a false dilemma here. Have you read the original documents for Revelation? My understanding is that the Greek verb used in that line was Anguish. This does not necessarily mean that someone is having a pain due to child birth but could be used to refer to externally caused pain. So it is understood in Catholic theology that the birth in revelation refers to Mary becoming the mother of all members of Christ at the foot of the cross while in deep agony in seeing her son crucified. Mary was the natural mother of Christ but is also the spiritual mother of us all.

So there is really no dilemma here as you suggest.

Second issue I have with your comment is that you are doing an awful lot of interpretation and condemnation of the Catholic Church’s interpretation. If I may ask, as I asked another person in a different thread, what authority do you have to think you have the authority to interpret Scripture? Or authority to expound teachings of Christianity for that matter? Keep in mind that this particular matter regarding authority must be settled through reason. Not Scripture. Why? Because without authority, a claim that a book is the Word of God is just as unacceptable to begin with.

So let me explain the Catholic position as you try to answer the above. The Catholic position is that
  1. Historicity of Death and Resurrection of Jesus proves his authority to teach and be knowledgeable of Transcendent truths
  2. Jesus was a rabbi who had chosen students - Apostles
  3. Since rabbi’s passed down their authority to their chosen students, the Apostles have the authority to teach the truths regarding Jesus and what he has revealed about the Transcendent
  4. The Apostles themselves had chosen students - Apostolic Successors
  5. Therefore it is within natural reason to now accept the authority of the Apostolic Successors
  6. The Apostolic Successors are present in the Catholic Church
  7. Therefore anyone who wants to be a follower of Jesus must assent to the authority of the Catholic Church
This Church teaches that it is the final authority in interpreting Tradition and Scripture. We listen to it, not because it makes sense but because it is the Authority. We don’t listen to Luther, ourselves, or some other person who proclaims himself a Theologian and Expert because they have no authority unless the Church accepts them.

Now unless you can refute the above line of reasoning that a Catholic uses, the Catholic position stands.
The Catholic Church is not to be trifled with. Christ speaks through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit directs & guides the Church through Peter. Peter lives in Rome, so when Rome speaks, Christ is speaking - and when Christ speaks, the Father speaks. I assent fully to all of this. Please do not think to place me with the “Christ followers” and “No-religionists”. I am a Roman Catholic.

I have nothing against the authority of the Church, and wish to hold to it as to Christ. I just asked why the Church calls Mary’s status a Saving Office, and why she is said to give all the Gifts of Eternal Salvation to us at this very moment - not as Mother of God, but personally and effectively, through her own will, at this moment, the giver of all good gifts (a characteristic of God in James 1:17). There’s not a hint of that in scripture, tradition, or the Fathers for more than a millennium…

… but I guess that doesn’t matter, does it? If the Catechism makes a poetic, narrative claim like Vatican 2, it must be true and there’s no room for inquiry, right? 😦
 
Dude, have you read the prayers and teachings? You would think they’d encrypt it so thinking, biblically sound Christians couldn’t detect how faulty they are!
Yeh, I wonder why they pray to her so much and talk about her power as if she is the Savior? Maybe they don’t know how to approach the Father through the Son. I love prayer. Such an awesome experience. I can go right into the Father’s presence in Jesus’ name, and the Holy Spirit guides me. Maybe they don’t know how.
Clearly you guys have never truly experienced the Mass! :rolleyes: I pray one day you have this eye opening experience.:highprayer:
 
The Catholic Church is not to be trifled with. Christ speaks through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit directs & guides the Church through Peter. Peter lives in Rome, so when Rome speaks, Christ is speaking - and when Christ speaks, the Father speaks. I assent fully to all of this. Please do not think to place me with the “Christ followers” and “No-religionists”. I am a Roman Catholic.

I have nothing against the authority of the Church, and wish to hold to it as to Christ. I just asked why the Church calls Mary’s status a Saving Office, and why she is said to give all the Gifts of Eternal Salvation to us at this very moment - not as Mother of God, but personally and effectively, through her own will, at this moment, the giver of all good gifts (a characteristic of God in James 1:17). There’s not a hint of that in scripture, tradition, or the Fathers for more than a millennium…

… but I guess that doesn’t matter, does it? If the Catechism makes a poetic, narrative claim like Vatican 2, it must be true and there’s no room for inquiry, right? 😦
First thing you must realize is that the teaching itself does not need to have been defined or taught from the beginning itself. Divine revelation ended with the last Apostle. But the church uses and interprets that Divine revelation to teach and clarify till the end of time. Apart from “Faith” related doctrine, think about moral doctrine. The early Church never had a pronouncement that In Vitro fertilization (IVF) is immoral. But she teaches as such today. It uses divinely revealed truths about human dignity and natural law to arrive at that conclusion. Is it a novel teaching to say “IVF is immoral?” CERTAINLY. But therefore is it false? NO!

So the fact that something was not present before is not a reason to say that the Church teaching is wrong. Since it is the only authority we got and we are speaking of matters beyond direct verification, the Church is the only one that can tell us if some teaching is wrong anyway.

Now Mary as the Mediatrix is one such conclusion to all the truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition.

If you are looking for hints, the biggest hint you have is the description of the incarnation. God, being omnipotent and the creator of all things through nothing, does not need the consent of a woman or any assistance by a woman to be incarnated. But God chose to enter in to the world through Mary. The WORD itself was given to us through Mary and her “yes”. At this very fact itself, we must realize how God seems to want to do things in ways we would not do, had we been in his position (this is why Muslims have a problem with the incarnation). More importantly, it seems that God went out of his way to involve a woman in the role of giving Christ to the world.

Also from Tradition, your view that Marian devotion was absent for the entire first millennium is incorrect. The Marian dogma, “Mother of God”, was pronounced before 500 AD. The Basilica Sanctae Mariae Maioris (Basilica of Saint Mary Major), which you can see even today was built in the time of Pope Sixtus III which was from 432 - 440 AD. So it shows the level of Marian devotion even back in the day.

If you go to Church fathers, Irenaeus (189 AD) says

“Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith”

Odes of Solomon considered to be from the 1st century,

“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life.”

Or you have the likes of St. Augustin

“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head”

With respect to mediatrix, we can see St. Ephraem (373 AD)

“With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world”

Or St. Cyril of Alexandria

“Hail Mary Theotokos, venerable treasure of the whole world…it is you through whom the Holy Trinity is glorified and adored,…through whom the tempter, the devil is cast down from heaven, through whom the fallen creature is raised up to heaven, through whom all creation, once imprisoned by idolatry, has reached knowledge of the truth, through whom holy baptism has come to believers…through whom nations are brought to repentance”

Now I did not initially think you were Catholic so I did not mention this. But if you want to get a good understanding of Mary, I want to suggest a very short book (but packed with information and insight) that you can read.

That is the “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary” by St. Louis De Montfort. You can find the entire text online here

ewtn.com/library/montfort/truedevo.htm

This is the work that Bl. John Paul II’s stated as

"I myself, in the years of my youth, found reading this book a great help. There I found the answers to my questions, for at one point I had feared that if my devotion to Mary became too great, it might end up compromising the supremacy of the worship owed to Christ”

So it may help you too 🙂
 
Eufrosnia, I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to tell me all of this, but I already believe it all. let’s address the points here:
  1. Your point about IVF is very good.
  2. I do not doubt, question, or deny that Mary’s “Yes”, such as it was, gave us the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God in flesh. She is the Mother of God, as Ephesus defines. None of this has to do with the original question.
  3. I absolutely did not claim that Marian devotion was absent for the first millennium! :eek: My goodness! You saw my doubts about one specific Marian teaching, and you assumed that I must be treating every single Marian doctrine as if it’s up for grabs. Please don’t jump to conclusions so easily, friend.
  4. All the Fathers agree that it was through Mary’s assent that all the Good Things have occurred. None of the quotes you’ve presented, however, show that the Fathers believed Mary was uniquely, presently, and personally distributing all the grace of Her Son by her own mediation in A.D. 300, A.D. 1200, or A.D. 2013. Saying “Yes” at the Annunciation is not the same as being given the task to be the great giver of all the gifts of eternal life in the present tense, right now.
  5. Ephraem of Syria was an extraordinary writer, and almost every claim we have to early Marian centrality in the Fathers comes from him. We need more than just one writer calling her “Mediatrix” - because you are correct in this assumption: the titles “Mediatrix”, “saving office”, and “giver of the gifts of eternal salvation” are equivalent terms. This, then, is mostly about mediatrix of “all graces”, and not about Marian devotion of itself.
 
Gabriel Serafin;10699238:
There is not one single word anywhere in sacred scripture that says Mary is the mother of the Church, or even hints at it! Such a monumental statement would have been echoed there if it were true. She is the mother of Jesus, never mentioned after Acts 1!
Or, perhaps, like an expert in counterfeit money who improves his skills by handling the authentic currency over and over…the more the born again people, who comprise the Body of Christ, simply immerse themselves in the word of God
(something once called a sin by Rome), the more error becomes obvious and the real thing becomes glorious.

The “word of God” as determined by whom? It is the Catholic Church which determined which books belong in the Scripture which you call the “Word of God”.
 
Eufrosnia, I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to tell me all of this, but I already believe it all. let’s address the points here:
  1. Your point about IVF is very good.
I am glad you think that way. So do you agree that the Church did not have to lay out everything explicitly before the death of the first Apostle?
  1. I do not doubt, question, or deny that Mary’s “Yes”, such as it was, gave us the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God in flesh. She is the Mother of God, as Ephesus defines. None of this has to do with the original question.
But it does show that Marian devotion is rooted as far back as that. Why would you have such devotion if people believed that Mary has no ongoing role in our salvation?
  1. I absolutely did not claim that Marian devotion was absent for the first millennium! :eek: My goodness! You saw my doubts about one specific Marian teaching, and you assumed that I must be treating every single Marian doctrine as if it’s up for grabs. Please don’t jump to conclusions so easily, friend.
Well, that is good to hear. Because I did see you pose a dilemma that we either had to choose between Immaculate Conception or Mary as the Queen of Heaven, yes?
  1. All the Fathers agree that it was through Mary’s assent that all the Good Things have occurred. None of the quotes you’ve presented, however, show that the Fathers believed Mary was uniquely, presently, and personally distributing all the grace of Her Son by her own mediation in A.D. 300, A.D. 1200, or A.D. 2013. Saying “Yes” at the Annunciation is not the same as being given the task to be the great giver of all the gifts of eternal life in the present tense, right now.
But my point to you is that none of the Fathers had to do so. You are going back to falling in to the thinking that the Church must have already defined and laid out everything explicitly before the death of the first Apostle. That is not the case. Divine revelation ended with the first Apostle but the teaching office and authority of the Church did not.
  1. Ephraem of Syria was an extraordinary writer, and almost every claim we have to early Marian centrality in the Fathers comes from him. We need more than just one writer calling her “Mediatrix” - because you are correct in this assumption: the titles “Mediatrix”, “saving office”, and “giver of the gifts of eternal salvation” are equivalent terms. This, then, is mostly about mediatrix of “all graces”, and not about Marian devotion of itself.
Actually, we don’t need a single writer at all. I only gave him as an example so that you don’t feel like this view is something out of the blue.

All that matters is that the Church teaches. Neither you nor I have the authority to dispute if its true or false. As I showed you before, the Church not saying it from the times of the early Church is not proof that it is false either.

The Church, through its ordinary magesterium, has repeatedly taught that the culmination of everything that has been Divinely revealed about Mary in Scripture and Tradition is that she is the Mediatrix of all Graces. We cannot disagree with that unless we went to heaven and saw that was not the case. So as far as Catholics are concerned, we give assent to the Church teaching because it is the Church that has the authority.

If you don’t understand how or why the teaching is true, it is a cross you must carry. It is not grounds for you to reject the teaching. Do you understand that this should be your position as a Catholic?
 
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But my point to you is that none of the Fathers had to do so. You are going back to falling in to the thinking that the Church must have already defined and laid out everything explicitly before the death of the first Apostle. That is not the case. Divine revelation ended with the first Apostle but the teaching office and authority of the Church did not.

All that matters is that the Church teaches. Neither you nor I have the authority to dispute if its true or false. As I showed you before, the Church not saying it from the times of the early Church is not proof that it is false either.

The Church, through its ordinary magesterium, has repeatedly taught that the culmination of everything that has been Divinely revealed about Mary in Scripture and Tradition is that she is the Mediatrix of all Graces. We cannot disagree with that unless we went to heaven and saw that was not the case. So as far as Catholics are concerned, we give assent to the Church teaching because it is the Church that has the authority.

If you don’t understand how or why the teaching is true, it is a cross you must carry. It is not grounds for you to reject the teaching. Do you understand that this should be your position as a Catholic?
Your statements assume that the authority of the Catholic Church is a given. How do you reach that assumption without having to make some self interpretation of the evidence, whether in scripture or tradition, and thus conclude that the Church has the authority it claims?

It is also problematic that the Church defines dogma, like the Immaculate Conception, almost 1800 years after revelation ceased. Is this something that always had to be believed? If so, has not the Church failed all those who didn’t believe it before the dogma was defined? If it did not have to be believed before, why is it necessary now? Is this not in reality changing doctrine; adding something that must now be believed that wasn’t before? Does it not make it “harder” for Christians today by compelling them to believe something or be anathema, when someone who had exactly the same beliefs is not, simpl because they were not born in a time when there was less to believe?
 
It is also problematic that the Church defines dogma, like the Immaculate Conception, almost 1800 years after revelation ceased. Is this something that always had to be believed? If so, has not the Church failed all those who didn’t believe it before the dogma was defined?
The Church only defines a dogma when the faithful are led by someone or some group to doubt what has been held as true. Protestantism, not initially but eventually, in it’s anti-Catholic ferver, had begun to doubt the revelations concerning Mary, and this led to doubt among the faithful. So the Church found it necessary to identify the belief in the IC as dogma.

An example of a future dogma might be

NOW, we all believe Joseph is the spouse of Mary, the legal father of Jesus.

Someday, some sect of protestantism may begin to teach, that since there is no mention of a wedding between Mary and Joseph in the BIble, they decided not to wed but just to live together.

Then the Church will need to issue a proclamation the Mary and Joseph were married and Jesus is the rightful heir of Joseph, son of David.

Of course, some will then say, the Church made up this dogma 2200 years after the fact as it did with the IC.
 
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