Masonic Conspiracy Theory

[Rumil]

Not sure which sub-forum to bring this up in, but It’s based on something I heard on the Catholic Answers radio program–I believe it was the first hour of Friday’s show. A guest mentioned claimed that Masons were behind the left-wing movements in Latin America; this was stated as fact not opinion. I was stunned. I was under the impression that all guests on Catholic Answers (except for Protestant/Catholic debates, etc.) were adherent to to Catholic doctrine as understood by Catholic Answers; I have never yet heard on Catholic Answers a liberal Catholic, a reformist Catholic, a left-wing Catholic, a sedavacantist, a conclavist or anyone with any heterodox viewpoint. Is endosement of Masonic conspiracy theories actually an official Catholic doctrine? I do understand that Catholicism views the Masons as a false religion and Catholics are forbidden to join, but that is not the same as a conspiracy theory; for example, Shintoism is also a false religions, but Catholics don’t think that Shintoists are plotting to take over the world. I associate this position with one taken by “Traditonal Catholics” that believe that all the changes brought on by Vatican II are a diabolic plot; for example, various breakaway “Catholic” churches, Hutton Gibson (Mel’s dad) and so on. When I hear Masonic conspiracy theories coming from Catholics, it is almost always associated with anti semiticism, so it is far from harmless. What is the official Catholic position on Masonic conspiracy theories?

 

[Rumil]

Sorry for error in previous post, The program I was referring to was the interview with Christopher Check aired on Catholic Answers Live Monday, Febuary 15.

 

[MikeLurie]

Here’s the link to an SSPX video that I found on Google Videos that discusses some of this.
It’s towards the middle of the video. It mentions the 3-chair seating arrangement (among other things) in post-VII churches as an example of a change that was based on Masonic practice…

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7574506343475019719&q=why+the+new+mass+invalid+2nd+edition&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0#

I don’t necessarily support the opinions put forth in this video, but since it discusses this topic I thought it was relevant.

 

[SunnaB16]

i cant comment about South America, but there seems to be an appreciable number of slightly nutcase Catholics who think that freemasonry is responsible for virtually every evil on the face of this earth. They tend to chase after "End Times" claims from here, there, and everywhere, along with other dubious stuff. If they dislike someone: "He might be a freemason.". If a bishops not so good: “He must be an ecclesiastical freemason.”. If a person is suffering from some particular illness: “One of his ancestors must have been a freemason.”.
It`s downright unhealthy!

Freemasonry is just one of many organisations that are peddling EVIL to a greater or lesser extent. And theres no doubt about it: **freemasonry hates Catholicism**, and tragically, some bishops are secret members. But lets not give it more “credit” than is due.
We know who`s behind all of the evil, of course.

Some Protestant groups have similar ideas about the Masons.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\ Here’s the link to an SSPX video that I found on Google Videos that discusses some of this.
It’s towards the middle of the video. It mentions the 3-chair seating arrangement (among other things) in post-VII churches as an example of a change that was based on Masonic practice…\

**Which is hogwash.

In the Western Church, it’s no more than the moving of the sedilia (or presbytery, as it’s sometimes called) from the south side of the sanctuary to behind the altar in the east end.

The Sedilia has always had three major seats for the Priest, Deacon, and Subdeacon.

In addition, I can assure you that there is nothing corresponding to this in a Masonic lodge.

Furthermore, in the Byzantine tradition, there has always been the synthronon behind the altar on the eastern wall with an odd number of seats.**

\And there`s no doubt about it: freemasonry hates Catholicism, and tragically, some bishops are secret members.\

Can you provide us with the names of these bishops, please?

 

[MikeLurie]

\ Here’s the link to an SSPX video that I found on Google Videos that discusses some of this.
It’s towards the middle of the video. It mentions the 3-chair seating arrangement (among other things) in post-VII churches as an example of a change that was based on Masonic practice…\

Which is hogwash.

Yeah, I agree.
It’s not an uncommon arrangement in any situation where a trio of leaders are presenting. It’s not like this is unique to the Masons. I found that to be a stretch.

 

[Shin]

Here’s the link to an SSPX video that I found on Google Videos that discusses some of this.
It’s towards the middle of the video. It mentions the 3-chair seating arrangement (among other things) in post-VII churches as an example of a change that was based on Masonic practice…

I don’t necessarily support the opinions put forth in this video, but since it discusses this topic I thought it was relevant.

That video is not SSPX, it’s MHFM, which is a tiny sedevacantist group.

 

[Another_Mary]

I heard the program in question.

Actually, I thought the caller was trolling for a heated discussion, to put it charitably.

What does this mean:

I was stunned. I was under the impression that all guests on Catholic Answers (except for Protestant/Catholic debates, etc.) were adherent to to Catholic doctrine as understood by Catholic Answers

Sorry if I am a little slow…but a quick search of the site does not disclose anything indicating this. Perhaps you can give us a link?

Here’s what’s already been discussed about Masonic conspiracy here on the forums:

forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php?searchid=6021380
(I have not followed the discussions, I’m only providing the link I got from a keyword search.)

It seems to me that I remember Patrick Madrid discussing something about the Masons and Mexico on CAL. but then again, maybe it was on his own program.

Hope that helps!

 

[cathguy]

The best books on the topic are written by Catholic apologist John Salza, a former Mason.

I recommend “Masonry Unmasked.” This book is well written, solid, and is published by Our Sunday Visitor (hardly a nutso publisher! It is a very good book).

His follow up volume is more specific to Catholics and is a good companion to Masonry Unmasked. It is entitled “Why Catholics Can’t Be Masons.”

I think the conspiracy theories you hear can get pretty crazed. Having said that I say this, Catholics should NOT be Masons, and if one is a Mason, one should repent of their membership in the Lodge.

 

[cathguy]

Not sure which sub-forum to bring this up in, but It’s based on something I heard on the Catholic Answers radio program–I believe it was the first hour of Friday’s show. A guest mentioned claimed that Masons were behind the left-wing movements in Latin America; this was stated as fact not opinion. I was stunned. I was under the impression that all guests on Catholic Answers (except for Protestant/Catholic debates, etc.) were adherent to to Catholic doctrine as understood by Catholic Answers; I have never yet heard on Catholic Answers a liberal Catholic, a reformist Catholic, a left-wing Catholic, a sedavacantist, a conclavist or anyone with any heterodox viewpoint. Is endosement of Masonic conspiracy theories actually an official Catholic doctrine? I do understand that Catholicism views the Masons as a false religion and Catholics are forbidden to join, but that is not the same as a conspiracy theory; for example, Shintoism is also a false religions, but Catholics don’t think that Shintoists are plotting to take over the world. I associate this position with one taken by “Traditonal Catholics” that believe that all the changes brought on by Vatican II are a diabolic plot; for example, various breakaway “Catholic” churches, Hutton Gibson (Mel’s dad) and so on. When I hear Masonic conspiracy theories coming from Catholics, it is almost always associated with anti semiticism, so it is far from harmless. What is the official Catholic position on Masonic conspiracy theories?

Rumil,

This is a serious oversimplification.

Masonry is a religion that preaches relativism, univsersalism, and indifferentism.

The fact that some lunatic anti-semites buy into Masonic conspiracies is entirely outside scope.

 

[edwest2]

First of all, I shun the term conspiracy theory for its obvious prejudicial association. There are actual conspiracies and they should each be examined on their owns merits. I would sincerely hope that Catholic Radio seriously reviews all speakers and the contents of each of their programs. I had heard part of a program with one speaker claiming that he thought there were Masons in high positions in the Church. I don’t find that unbelievable.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Rumil]

I was under the impression that all guests on Catholic Answers (except for Protestant/Catholic debates, etc.) were adherent to to Catholic doctrine as understood by Catholic Answers

Sorry if I am a little slow…but a quick search of the site does not disclose anything indicating this. Perhaps you can give us a link?
I can’t give a link; all I know is from listening to the programs and it quite consistent in never having guests that are not conservative Catholics (if that is the right term). I have never heard on Catholics Answers Live any dissident Catholics, liberal Catholics, left-wing Catholics or any other hetrodox Catholic.
First of all, I shun the term conspiracy theory for its obvious prejudicial association. There are actual conspiracies and they should each be examined on their owns merits
I realize there are real conspiracies and I have no problem with fact-based conspiracy theories. My problem is with meretricious conspiracy theories that are used to spread fear and hatred. I can simply find no evidence at all of Masonic influence on Central American liberation movements. If anything, many of these groups were most inspired by Catholic teachings on social justice. I am not coming from a pro-Masonic point of view; it is just that I find that hate-mongering and scapegoating are ineffective ways of protecting the Faith. Generally, Masonic conspiracy theories are particularly odious because of the association anti-semitism; in fact in Fascist and Nazi literature one often encounters the term “Masonic Jew.”

 

[SunnaB16]

\

\And there`s no doubt about it: freemasonry hates Catholicism, and tragically, some bishops are secret members.\

Can you provide us with the names of these bishops, please?

No
Not directly. But:
In days gone by, if a “Catholic” became a Mason it was automatic excommunication.
That was changed because a FEW bishops were…“suspected” of being involved in it. There was a risk of invalid ordinations.
As youd know, when a new bishop is consecrated, its done by more than one bishop.

Please keep that claim i made above in the context of everything that was made in that first post. im certainly not claiming that theres more than a suspected VERY small number in one or two isolated parts of the world.
After all, Masonic conspiracy theories are a bit off, as that first post said.

 

[edwest2]

I was under the impression that all guests on Catholic Answers (except for Protestant/Catholic debates, etc.) were adherent to to Catholic doctrine as understood by Catholic Answers

Sorry if I am a little slow…but a quick search of the site does not disclose anything indicating this. Perhaps you can give us a link?
I can’t give a link; all I know is from listening to the programs and it quite consistent in never having guests that are not conservative Catholics (if that is the right term). I have never heard on Catholics Answers Live any dissident Catholics, liberal Catholics, left-wing Catholics or any other hetrodox Catholic.
First of all, I shun the term conspiracy theory for its obvious prejudicial association. There are actual conspiracies and they should each be examined on their owns merits
I realize there are real conspiracies and I have no problem with fact-based conspiracy theories. My problem is with meretricious conspiracy theories that are used to spread fear and hatred. I can simply find no evidence at all of Masonic influence on Central American liberation movements. If anything, many of these groups were most inspired by Catholic teachings on social justice. I am not coming from a pro-Masonic point of view; it is just that I find that hate-mongering and scapegoating are ineffective ways of protecting the Faith. Generally, Masonic conspiracy theories are particularly odious because of the association anti-semitism; in fact in Fascist and Nazi literature one often encounters the term “Masonic Jew.”

Sad, that you assume anything the Church teaches about Masons involves hate mongering. I have never heard any association between Masons and anti-semitism. Just go to the Catholic Encyclopedia if you want a good explanation. I have never associated the Masons with Jewish people and I have not heard that association before.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Cetil]

Masons did become involved in Latin American governments especially in the nineteenth century, likely their influence persists there. It is hard of course to be sure as masons are a secret society. And since masonry is anti-Catholic and anti-clerical, this has to be of concern to us. It is likely there was some “conspiratorial” activity there since Masons work in cooperation with each other . Read Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical “Humanum Genus” condemning freemasonry: ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/L13HUMAN.HTM

An example of a true masonic conspiracy is the one known as P-2 in Italy which involved members of the Italian cabinet and many members of parliament. This particular lodge conspired to bring down the Italian government and install a fascist government in Italy, according to some but it remains a murky affair. It was exposed and forced the resignation of Prime Minister Arnaldo Forlani in 1981.
See: news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/26/newsid_4396000/4396893.stm

. The same lodge was also active in some Latin American countries. I think any Catholic should be aware of how masons operate though I would avoid making the assumption there are conspiracies everywhere. Nonetheless, it is something to be concerned about.
Here is an interesting recent article on the influence of masonry around the world from Catholic Online: catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=4454

c.

 

[Cetil]

Bear in mind this passage from Leo XIII’s encyclical when considering masonic activity:
"7. But, what is of highest importance, the course of events has demonstrated the prudence of Our predecessors. For their provident and paternal solicitude had not always and every where the result desired; and this, either because of the simulation and cunning of some who were active agents in the mischief, or else of the thoughtless levity of the rest who ought, in their own interest, to have given to the matter their diligent attention.** In consequence, the sect of Freemasons grew with a rapidity beyond conception in the course of a century and a half, until it came to be able, by means of fraud or of audacity, to gain such entrance into every rank of the State as to seem to be almost its ruling power.** This swift and formidable advance has brought upon the Church, upon the power of princes, upon the public well-being, precisely that grievous harm which Our predecessors had long before foreseen.Such a condition has been reached that henceforth there will be grave reason to fear, not indeed for the Church—for her foundation is much too firm to be overturned by the effort of men—but for those States in which prevails the power, either of the sect of which we are speaking or of other sects not dissimilar which lend themselves to it as disciples and subordinates."

I think the passages I have put in bold type is something to ponder when we consider Masonic power. And yes, it does appear Leo XIII held a “conspiratorial” view of Masonry and its actions in our world.

 

[Another_Mary]

Please excuse typos–I have a cast on one arm.

Rumil–I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the quote tools available on this forum. You have quoted me in the following but not attributed to me :

I was under the impression that all guests on Catholic Answers (except for Protestant/Catholic debates, etc.) were adherent to to Catholic doctrine as understood by Catholic Answers

Sorry if I am a little slow…but a quick search of the site does not disclose anything indicating this. Perhaps you can give us a link?

OF course, anyone following this discussion from the beginning probably caught that. Just mentioning it beauce it could cause a real problem at some time if someone thinks that you are the person with the opinion you quoted but supplied no attributoin for.

I can’t give a link; all I know is from listening to the programs and it quite consistent in never having guests that are not conservative Catholics (if that is the right term). I have never heard on Catholics Answers Live any dissident Catholics, liberal Catholics, left-wing Catholics or any other hetrodox Catholic.

Just wondering–do you think they should have these people on? I thought CAL was a private apostolate. They can have whoever they want for guests. I would imagine that if listeners didn’t like what they heard they wouldn’t contribute to the fund raising. I have heard opposing views on various subjects from callers, who are treated with respect as long as they themselves are respectful.

I can simply find no evidence at all of Masonic influence on Central American liberation movements.

I believe that the instance where the Masons were mentioned on this specific program had to do with Mexico specifically, not Central America. I know that Central America was mentioned, but not (in my mind) specifically in conjunction with Masons. I don’t have the time to relisten to the program, which is available on this website for anyone who wants to review it.

Here is the link to that program:
catholic.com/radio/calendar.php
Sorry, it does not link directly to the show. It is the 3 PM hour, Feb. 15, 2010.

Here’s a link to a DVD by Patrick Madrid that deals with the persecutions in Mexico:
surprisedbytruth.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=131

 

[Timothy17]

Nonetheless, it is something to be concerned about.
Here is an interesting recent article on the influence of masonry around the world from Catholic Online: catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=4454

c.

I would argue it is not something to be “worried about”

“Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I shall fear no evil
For thou art with me”

Yes, we are in the shadow of death, so of course you are going to get all sorts of twisted and evil things plaguing the world; nonetheless, we are not to fear evil, because we know that the universe is governed by a higher -and purely good- Power, who is not impersonal but in fact cares for and loves each and every single one of us. He even suffers evil doers and wrongdoers to exist, so that they may come to repentance; therefore, we should not be shaken by scandals like coups, revolutions, rebellions, corruption or perversions, such as the Masonic lodges have been made (largely by popular culture) to symbolize. Sinners abound, sure, but the light of the Church stands before us, lighting our path. She is the visible testament to God’s existence and presence here on Earth.

Masonry and anything like it is, in my opinion, nothing more than human vanity. It does much harm to its followers, and therefore we should not fear them but fear for them.

Peace,
Tim.

 

[Jane11]

Facts are stubborn things: study your history. When something is a fact it is no longer a theory.

 

[Cetil]

I would argue it is not something to be “worried about”

“Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I shall fear no evil
For thou art with me”

Yes, we are in the shadow of death, so of course you are going to get all sorts of twisted and evil things plaguing the world; nonetheless, we are not to fear evil, because we know that the universe is governed by a higher -and purely good- Power, who is not impersonal but in fact cares for and loves each and every single one of us. He even suffers evil doers and wrongdoers to exist, so that they may come to repentance; therefore, we should not be shaken by scandals like coups, revolutions, rebellions, corruption or perversions, such as the Masonic lodges have been made (largely by popular culture) to symbolize. Sinners abound, sure, but the light of the Church stands before us, lighting our path. She is the visible testament to God’s existence and presence here on Earth.

Masonry and anything like it is, in my opinion, nothing more than human vanity. It does much harm to its followers, and therefore we should not fear them but fear for them.

Peace,
Tim.

Tim,
I spoke only of concern not fear or worry. The quote I cited from Leo XIII already made the point you are trying to make.

c.