Masons and the Media

[rinnie]

It does not. It is based on very old, and very outdated information and only references things written by individuals not speaking for the organization. It talks about people hundreds of years ago who were anti-Catholic and because they belonged to the Masons, it made the entire organization damned. The Church needs to look at the organization today, what they say today, what they do today in order to judge the fraternity fairly and accurately.

The Church has never lifted the ban. The Church still does not allow us to become part of that organization.

Say what you want, I know many many Masons and they do not like us. But I can see it does not matter what I or the Church can say you refuse to accept this. But I am telling you I have been around them for the 29 years of my marriage. And many at the time did not know I was Catholic, and I heard the comments. So maybe you are right, Maybe it was just that group? Okay whatever.

 

[beischel]

Thats using my logic. Okay then lets use this logic if the Masons were not against the CC why are we forbidden as Catholic’s to be one. Do you think the Church would forbid this for no reason?

Your logic was that because your father-in-law was anti-papal, that all Masons are anti-Catholic and the entire Masonic organizations are anti-Catholic. It’s incorrect logic and simply not true.

Second, why does the Church forbid membership in the Masonic Fraternity in this day and age? Because it is a decision made on old and very outdated information about the Masons. In addition, you cannot have a discussion with anyone of any authority in the Church on the subject. Even the Grand Lodge of England has asked Rome what do we have to do to become accepted and they do not receive a reply or have any meaningful discourse on the subject. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

I find it amazing that the Pope wanted the United States to continue to talk to Iraq and try to work out their differences instead of going to war. Yet, the Catholic Church will not talk to the Masons and try to work out their differences.

Not practicing what thou preaches.

 

[rinnie]

Your logic was that because your father-in-law was anti-papal, that all Masons are anti-Catholic and the entire Masonic organizations are anti-Catholic. It’s incorrect logic and simply not true.

Second, why does the Church forbid membership in the Masonic Fraternity in this day and age? Because it is a decision made on old and very outdated information about the Masons. In addition, you cannot have a discussion with anyone of any authority in the Church on the subject. Even the Grand Lodge of England has asked Rome what do we have to do to become accepted and they do not receive a reply or have any meaningful discourse on the subject. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

I find it amazing that the Pope wanted the United States to continue to talk to Iraq and try to work out their differences instead of going to war. Yet, the Catholic Church will not talk to the Masons and try to work out their differences.

Not practicing what thou preaches.

How do you figure that? The Pope John Paul II did respond 11-26-83

And his response was simple. Their principles has always been considered irreconcilable with the Doctrine of the Church and still are, So membership with them are forbidden.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Your logic was that because your father-in-law was anti-papal, that all Masons are anti-Catholic and the entire Masonic organizations are anti-Catholic. It’s incorrect logic and simply not true.

Second, [SIGN]why does the Church forbid membership in the Masonic Fraternity in this day [/SIGN]and age? Because it is a decision made on old and very outdated information about the Masons. In addition, you cannot have a discussion with anyone of any authority in the Church on the subject. Even the Grand Lodge of England has asked Rome what do we have to do to become accepted and they do not receive a reply or have any meaningful discourse on the subject. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

I find it amazing that the Pope wanted the United States to continue to talk to Iraq and try to work out their differences instead of going to war. Yet, the Catholic Church will not talk to the Masons and try to work out their differences.

Not practicing what thou preaches.

Just to name a few

The masons teach the Truth can be discovered through human reason. Christians do nt believe all truth can be discovered by mere reason.

Masons ask Members to keep to themself all beliefs concerning Jesus Christ, the Bible, and authority of the Church. Catholic teachings states that it is our duty to make know that we worship Jesus Chirst in the CC. We are to spread the good word to all.

They do not promote one philosphical or Religion truth except thier own Idea Man is his own light. Scripture states I am the way and the Truth and the Light.

Just to name a few. Now did anything change in the years. I think not!

 

[beischel]

How do you figure that? The Pope John Paul II did respond 11-26-83

And his response was simple. Their principles has always been considered irreconcilable with the Doctrine of the Church and still are, So membership with them are forbidden.

What are those irreconcilable principles? It’s great to make blanket statements, but where is the meat behind them? Did JPII state what exactly was irreconcilable?

 

[JSSebastianoP]

scripturecatholic.com/freemasonry_qa.html

 

[beischel]

scripturecatholic.com/freemasonry_qa.html

Nothing real to back up the assertions.

 

[gamewell45]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Just to name a few

Masons ask Members to keep to themself all beliefs concerning Jesus Christ, the Bible, and authority of the Church. Catholic teachings states that it is our duty to make know that we worship Jesus Chirst in the CC. We are to spread the good word to all.

Rinnie,

The reason why is because Freemasonry is not a religion nor a substitute for religion, in fact we encourage each to be steadfast in the faith of their acceptance. If you join a lodge and expect to find religion or divine guidance, you’ll be very disapointed. We don’t discuss religion in open lodge since there are many different religions represented there. There is an old saying that two things divide men in this world: politics and religion and as such neither is permitted to be discussed in open lodge. Outside of lodge you are free to discuss religion and/or politics if you so choose.

I’ve been following this thread for the past few days and Its obvious that you have very strong convictions regarding Freemasonry/Catholic Church and thats fine. But Freemasonry is not about religion, rather good men bettering themselves.

Btw, over 40 % of my lodge is composed of Roman Catholics and as far as I know, not one of them has found issue with Freemasonry either before or after joining.

Freemasonry realizes that the RCC has forbidden its members to join our ranks; our position is that its a matter between the member and their church.

 

[Justin_Mee]

Though the lower members of the masons do not have an agenda against the Church…the Upper members are firmly against the Holy Church and all of Her works…

Until 12/31/09, I was a 40+ year member of the Masonic Lodge. There is NO vendetta or ill will against the Catholic Church. Rarely is the CC even mentioned before, during or after the lodge. No Mason I ever knew is trying to infiltrate, hurt, harm or molest any Catholic. I wish we could all just get over it. The Vatican has spoken on this or I would still be a Mason (I was confirmed Easter Sunday). I am sure you will find a Mason here and there who hate the CC. Big deal! I can find more haters in my local Baptist Church. Also, who are the “upper level” of Masons. Master Mason is as ‘upper’ as it gets. There is no secret Mason counsel out to get us. If you want to worry about a group; worry about the group that would cut off our heads just for being Christian.

 

[beischel]

Thanks Gamewell for the comments. It was very hard for me to give up my Masonic memberships (blue lodge, scottish rite, and shriners) because my Church told me I had to…going to Hell and all that for joining a social/fraternal organization. I still cannot understand all the lies and attacks on Masonry in this modern age. I do clearly understand why there were mutual attacks hundreds of years ago, but times, people organizations change. I now only see hate coming from many Catholics and not Masons. Sure there are Masons who are anti-Catholic, but the organization itself is not anti-Catholic. The Church keeps holding on to beliefs about Masonry that are no longer there.

It’s really and shame that the Church feels so threatened by one’s membership in a fraternal organization. Is the faith so frail that it believes that my fraternal membership in the Masons is going to change my faith in the Church and Jesus Christ? I am tried of being treated like an ignorant adult who cannot make personal decisions on my own. That I have to rely on the Church to tell me who I can and cannot associate with. The Church damns the Masons but never stands up and challenges the Democrats who support the killing of children, withholding healthcare of senior citizens, taxing free people into slavery, homosexual behavior, homosexual marriage, taxing of Church property, and complete separation of church and state.

The Church seems to lack the vision of where the real threat to the Church is coming from. Someday it may be the Masons who stand up for the Catholic Church when this government and the Democrats continue to move against the Church to take it down along with the pope. In the Democratic Party along with their progressive members lies the true enemy of the Church…certainly not the Masons.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

The reason why is because Freemasonry is not a religion nor a substitute for religion, in fact we encourage each to be steadfast in the faith of their acceptance. If you join a lodge and expect to find religion or divine guidance, you’ll be very disapointed. We don’t discuss religion in open lodge since there are many different religions represented there. There is an old saying that two things divide men in this world: politics and religion and as such neither is permitted to be discussed in open lodge. Outside of lodge you are free to discuss religion and/or politics if you so choose.

I’ve been following this thread for the past few days and Its obvious that you have very strong convictions regarding Freemasonry/Catholic Church and thats fine. But Freemasonry is not about religion, rather good men bettering themselves.

Btw, over 40 % of my lodge is composed of Roman Catholics and as far as I know, not one of them has found issue with Freemasonry either before or after joining.

Freemasonry realizes that the RCC has forbidden its members to join our ranks; our position is that its a matter between the member and their church.

Okay then tell me this you claim it has nothing to do with Religion correct? Then why do they have a bible? I have seen it so please do not tell me it exists. It is the KJV and it has their symbol on it. Why?

 

[beischel]

Okay then tell me this you claim it has nothing to do with Religion correct? Then why do they have a bible? I have seen it so please do not tell me it exists. It is the KJV and it has their symbol on it. Why?

Well the United States government has nothing to do with religion right? Yet, they also have a Bible that you put your hand on when you take an oath of office. As a Mason, you take an oath to keep the secret handshake, words, etc. with your hand on the Bible (or other similar book if you were a Buddist, Jew, etc.) just like you do when you become president, congressman, etc.

When you obtain your third degree you get a gift of the Bible. Since it is givin to you by the Masons, they put their mark on it.

My aunt (Catholic) lived at a Catholic facility when she died. They gave the family a Bible. It had the crest of their organization on the cover of the Bible. I am sure many other organizations who give Bibles as gifts, also mark it with their organizations name, crest, symbol, etc.

It is not “their” Bible…it is a Christian Bible. King James Version I believe. I would have to go look at mine. Pretty much looks and reads like all my other Bibles.

 

[rinnie]

Well the United States government has nothing to do with religion right? Yet, they also have a Bible that you put your hand on when you take an oath of office. As a Mason, you take an oath to keep the secret handshake, words, etc. with your hand on the Bible (or other similar book if you were a Buddist, Jew, etc.) just like you do when you become president, congressman, etc.

When you obtain your third degree you get a gift of the Bible. Since it is givin to you by the Masons, they put their mark on it.

My aunt (Catholic) lived at a Catholic facility when she died. They gave the family a Bible. It had the crest of their organization on the cover of the Bible. I am sure many other organizations who give Bibles as gifts, also mark it with their organizations name, crest, symbol, etc.

It is not “their” Bible…it is a Christian Bible. King James Version I believe. I would have to go look at mine. Pretty much looks and reads like all my other Bibles.

Boys thats amazing. You stated in #12 you had no idea what upper or lower members were. Now you seem to know quite well about the degrees. You are going to try to say now that you had no clue what the person meant,

Then you say they get a bible in the 3rd degree and its the KJV you think? So you are saying it could be a Catholic Bible? Yeah right.

Now you said that your grandmother lived in a Catholic facility and they gave the family a bible. Does not sound strange to me, beings that she was in a Catholic facility. A Catholic facility would be most likely filled with Catholic’s and Catholics would be practicing the Catholic faith. And the CC did in fact compose the bible.

But then you say that the Masons don’t have anything to do with Religion but then of all things get a Bible? Why? Why would a non-Religious organization give a Religious Item to someone? Makes no sense to me.

Now glad you mentioned the secrets. Yes another reason that the CC forbids this. Nothing is to be done in Secret. All must be kept in the light.

Now you claim that the goverment has nothing to do with Religion? Take a look at a dollar bill. In God We Trust. I guess now you are going to say God has nothing to say with Religion

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Well the United States government has nothing to do with religion right? Yet, they also have a Bible that you put your hand on when you take an oath of office. As a Mason, you take an oath to keep the secret handshake, words, etc. [BIBLEDRB]with your hand on the Bible (or other similar book if you were a Buddist, Jew[/BIBLEDRB], etc.) just like you do when you become president, congressman, etc.

When you obtain your third degree you get a gift of the Bible. Since it is givin to you by the Masons, they put their mark on it.

My aunt (Catholic) lived at a Catholic facility when she died. They gave the family a Bible. It had the crest of their organization on the cover of the Bible. I am sure many other organizations who give Bibles as gifts, also mark it with their organizations name, crest, symbol, etc.

It is not “their” Bible…it is a Christian Bible. King James Version I believe. I would have to go look at mine. Pretty much looks and reads like all my other Bibles.

But this makes no sense either. If you are told to keep your Religions views to yourself how would they even know if you were buddist, Jew, etc to put your hand on?

 

[Justin_Mee]

But then you say that the Masons don’t have anything to do with Religion but then of all things get a Bible? Why? Why would a non-Religious organization give a Religious Item to someone? Makes no sense to me.

Now glad you mentioned the secrets. Yes another reason that the CC forbids this. Nothing is to be done in Secret. All must be kept in the light.

Now you claim that the goverment has nothing to do with Religion? Take a look at a dollar bill. In God We Trust. I guess now you are going to say God has nothing to say with Religion

I just joined the K of C. I promised to keep their rite secret. They have an inner guard and an outer guard at the door. The Masons are no more secret than the K of C.

 

[beischel]

Boys thats amazing. You stated in #12 you had no idea what upper or lower members were. Now you seem to know quite well about the degrees. You are going to try to say now that you had no clue what the person meant,

Then you say they get a bible in the 3rd degree and its the KJV you think? So you are saying it could be a Catholic Bible? Yeah right.

Now you said that your grandmother lived in a Catholic facility and they gave the family a bible. Does not sound strange to me, beings that she was in a Catholic facility. A Catholic facility would be most likely filled with Catholic’s and Catholics would be practicing the Catholic faith. And the CC did in fact compose the bible.

But then you say that the Masons don’t have anything to do with Religion but then of all things get a Bible? Why? Why would a non-Religious organization give a Religious Item to someone? Makes no sense to me.

Now glad you mentioned the secrets. Yes another reason that the CC forbids this. Nothing is to be done in Secret. All must be kept in the light.

Now you claim that the goverment has nothing to do with Religion? Take a look at a dollar bill. In God We Trust. I guess now you are going to say God has nothing to say with Religion

It’s not a conflicting statement. There are no upper or lower members. Just different degrees. No different than KofC…they have four degrees and no one refers to them as upper or lower members.

A organization which is faith-based does not make it a religion. Masonic organization are faith-based only to the point that you have to have faith/belief in God to be a member.

Why do the Masons give a Bible or other Holy Book (depending on faith and religious affiliation of the member? I don’t really know, I guess it is a gift for the Mason to read to learn more about God. If I give you a religious book to read, does that make me a religion?

Nothing is to be secret? Are you kidding me? Even the KofC has secrets and they do not want new members to know of the Third Degree before it is presented. Lots of fraternal organizations have secrets. Even the Catholic Church. Do you think that all the discussions on the sex scandal should be out in the open? Wouldn’t that be interesting. The church lawyers would love that one. Seriously, if nothing is to be secret, why aren’t the elections of popes televised? Why cannot we sit in on the process…because it is a secret. Should the government disclose everything to our enemies? Should confessions be open to everyone? Public confessions so to speak. How can you make such a silly blanket statement that nothing should be secret? You’re really reaching now.

Belief in God and having a motto of “In God We Trust” does not mean the government is involved in religion nor endorsing a religion. It simply, like the Masons, acknowledges that there is a God and in Him we trust. That does not involve the government in religion. I cannot believe a rational thinking man would make such a statement.

All I can say is “wow.”

 

[beischel]

I just joined the K of C. I promised to keep their rite secret. They have an inner guard and an outer guard at the door. The Masons are no more secret than the K of C.

Very true and non-members cannot sit in and listen to meetings. Because they are secret except for the membership.

The glass house and throwing of stones comes to mind when the Church uses the secrets argument when it comes to Masons. Masons are not a secret society, just a society with secrets…just like most fraternal organizations including the KofC.

 

[gamewell45]

Okay then tell me this you claim it has nothing to do with Religion correct? Then why do they have a bible? I have seen it so please do not tell me it exists. It is the KJV and it has their symbol on it. Why?

Each lodge has a Volume of Sacred Law (VSL) on display to remind us of our obligation to God. The VSL could be a Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. depending on the makeup of the lodge.

There are KJV Bibles with Masonic Square & Compasses on it; its the same as KJV Bibles that may be given out by other organizations whom put their symbols on it; such as the fire service, Gideons, etc. Nothing herein implies that it has a religious conotation attached to it.

 

[gamewell45]

But then you say that the Masons don’t have anything to do with Religion but then of all things get a Bible? Why? Why would a non-Religious organization give a Religious Item to someone? Makes no sense to me.

Rinnie,

Using this analogy; the labor union I belong to makes it a practice of providing the family of the deceased member with a bible at the wake of the deceased Brother/Sister. the Bible has the name and seal of the union on it. That doesn’t necessarily make it a religious oriented organization.

Because Masons are urged to be steadfast in the faith of their acceptance, it is a long standing tradition that the newly initated Brother be presented with a new bible.

Now, does it make any better sense to you??

 

[gamewell45]

Thanks Gamewell for the comments. It was very hard for me to give up my Masonic memberships (blue lodge, scottish rite, and shriners) because my Church told me I had to…going to Hell and all that for joining a social/fraternal organization. I still cannot understand all the lies and attacks on Masonry in this modern age. I do clearly understand why there were mutual attacks hundreds of years ago, but times, people organizations change. I now only see hate coming from many Catholics and not Masons. Sure there are Masons who are anti-Catholic, but the organization itself is not anti-Catholic. The Church keeps holding on to beliefs about Masonry that are no longer there.

beischel,

Thanks for your response.

As a demitted Brother, you know that as Masons, we are taught to be tolerant of those who either think or are different then we are. It’s one of the beautiful tenets of Freemasonry that has defined us as a fraternal organization through the centuries.

As with any organization, whether it be the Masons, K of C, Elks, religious groups and other social groups, there will be people who are prejudiced for whatever the reason, but knowing that not all humanity is of that ilk, it helps us to rationalize the various behaviours and guide us in our daily path throughout life. So do take comfort in that.