Masons

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Chazemataz:
I do not know what relevance this has to Freemasons and Vatican Decrees. I think you are trying to say that it means Jesus is telling Peter that whatever the Vatican decrees in Earth shall also apply for gaining entry into Heaven Not so.
This means that Peter will have the right to enter the Kingdom of Heaven himself, and preaching the gospel would be means of opening the kingdom of Heaven.
I just wanted to clear this up. Matthew 16:19 actually **does ** give the Lord’s visible church on earth the authority to make official decrees concerning any matter of faith and morals, including salvation. Jesus unquestionably gives the Catholic Church this power. The Reformers began to break away from this, and so caused the epidemic of denominations that is quite apparent today. If the Church says that we cannot join the Masons, then we can’t while remaining Catholic.
 
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Casen:
Freemasonry is not satanic and is not anti-Catholic. In the U.S. most Free Masons are indeed Christians. It’s more of a fraternity than a religion though. The only requirements to join that I know of are that you must believe in a supreme being and you must be a man of integrity. I’m not a free mason myself but have read enough to know that Sir Knight is wrong and has obviously visited one of the many anti-free masonry websites and bought into the lies hook line and sinker.
Freemasonry is a secret society, not too much is out in the open about them. The only source of information is from ex-freemasons. My uncle is a freemason, he tried to get me interested when I was a child, thank God I said I followed the 1st commandment. From what he told me, they seem to practice moral relavitism. They hold that no religion is true, all have truth. And so they reflect on different religions, I really don’t know what happens in the lodge, that is their biggest secret. One thing is for sure, the Church has decreed that freemasonry’s message is not in line with the teachings of the Church and that a Catholic is forbidden to join freemasonry.
 
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FdeS2:
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Chazemataz:
I do not know what relevance this has to Freemasons and Vatican Decrees. I think you are trying to say that it means Jesus is telling Peter that whatever the Vatican decrees in Earth shall also apply for gaining entry into Heaven Not so.
This means that Peter will have the right to enter the Kingdom of Heaven himself, and preaching the gospel would be means of opening the kingdom of Heaven
I just wanted to clear this up. Matthew 16:19 actually **does ** give the Lord’s visible church on earth the authority to make official decrees concerning any matter of faith and morals, including salvation. Jesus unquestionably gives the Catholic Church this power.
FdeS2 beat me to it – the church DOES have this authority when it comes to official matters of faith.
 
Sir Knight said:
FdeS2 beat me to it – the church DOES have this authority when it comes to official matters of faith.

I’m glad you picked up on it - I thought I must have misunderstood the OP. AFAIK the Church has always and continues to teach that she unbinds is loosed and what she binds is bound.
 
Just a couple notes;

Due to the determined effort to maintain a certain style of religious tolerance in the Lodge, Jesus Christ is not invoked in any ritual I have ever seen or participated in, outside of certain degrees within the York Rite of Freemasonry. And in reference to those, the citation listed below in response to “who” or “what” masonic Light is as being JC is not “regular” and would bring about what forms of censure the Grand Lodge could, just as if it was declaired that Muhammad was that Light. Why? Because the Masonic Lodge makes a determined effort to not force a particular religion upon its members.

That said, there is NO UNIVERSAL MASONIC RITUAL. Though similar on particular “essentials”, called landmarks, the ritual of Freemasonry is different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction (which in the US means from state to state). Therefore quoting exerpts from monitors, ciphers, or exposes is not terribly useful, and certainly not authoritative to apply to Freemasonry in general.

Also, keep in mind that there is a great plethera of organizations that utilizes the Masonic Lodge as a source for their membership, such as the Scottish Rite, York Rite, Shriners, OTO (if it even still exists anywhere but in the minds of those poor souls trying to ressurect that dark order), and over 75 more in just the US alone. None of these organizations are controlled by, or controll themselves, Freemasonry. They do expand and elaborate on masonic ritual according to their particular spin, thus there was a historical tension between the Christian-specific York Rite, and the more universalist Scottish Rite.

Further, every known organization that attempted to unify or otherwise take controll of these groups died from a short lifespan, such as the FUDOSI, which are not generally pro-masonic to begin with as they usually wanted to enlarge and mold masonry to embrace their various occultic beliefs, which in themselves were just variations on Blatevaskis stuff. Now, most orders that follow these attempts tend to ignore masonry, and downplay its role in their own formation.

As far as I have been told, Catholics still cannot become Masons. In reference to Masons becoming Catholic, I can only respond with what how my local diocese is handeling my own case. As I am still in process for coming into communion with the Church as a candidate, I was asked to resign my offocer positions, but as of yet I do not need to formally resign my full memberships. I can only speculate beyond this, so I cannot tell as of yet wheather or not I will eventually be asked to resign my memberships as well by the time I am ready to take communion.

At this point in my formation, however, I am thinking that my masonic “career” is effectively over. While I adamantly reject such notions as satan worship and other nonsense, what I am seeing is that the tenants of the order are inherently protestant in character, and therefore incompatable with the Church on similar grounds. Just as a protestant cannot really recognize a religious authority beyond that which exists on an individual basis between a man and God on a moral level, neither can the Masonic Order “respect” one religion or eccleisiastical authority over another; such fidelity is up to the particular individual to descide. Thus a Methodist, Baptist or LDS even, can sit in Lodge with or initiate (and be initiated by) a Jew, Muslim, or anyone else who even just merely has an abstract notion that there is a god “out there somewhere.”

Unlike the Knights of Columbus, who require that a prospective member not only believe in the RCC, but be an active and full member thereof, the Masons only require an affirmation that a prospective member believes in a supreme being, with no elaboration of that belief allowed or required. And, to the scandal of certain Christians, it also means that a satanist (in the stereotypical theistic concept of satanism) could also be admitted to a Masonic Lodge (though not in the known modern theology of satanism in which a “Supreme Being” is not acknowledged).

As an object lesson of what Masonic “tolerance” is, I will leave it to you to decide if such openess is a good thing or not. :rolleyes:

Given that the stongest language used against Freemasonry came during a time when even the, now “freindly”, protestants were also worshippers of satan, I think a little discernment should be used in reading such documents. Not that Rome, even then, did not express valid points; but it is necessary to understand them prior to aping them in an easily rebutted attack.

Hostility weilding archaic and easily refuted attacks does not “hurt” the Masons, as it only “proves” the point of the Scottish Rite that instituional religious authority is but a form of tyrrany. (like I said, protestant ideologies incompatible to the RCC…).

Oops, sorry, I think I gave a little more than two cents… Anyway, make of it what you will 🙂

Caritas numquam excidit

BTW, according to Albert Pike (one of the most famous Masons, especially amongst anti-masons), the Grand Architect of the Universe was Jesus Christ. See the Sefir D’Hebraim for his logic and statement…

Cheerio
 
A few more points:

32° Mason = NOT the highest degree, even within the AASR, which is the only modern organization to have said degree. The highest degree in the AASR is the 33°

Knight Templar = Not the highest degree either, except within a Commandery of the York Rite.

Other bodies have their own sets of degrees (for instance, the Shriners have but a single degree; whereas the defunct and non-recognized Rite of Memphis had 96 degrees!!).

When speaking of Freemasonry, the third degree, Master Mason, is the “highest” degree recognized.

What Happens at meetings:
a ritual is used to open the meeting; minutes are read, bills are paid, schedulaing of events, such as initiations, are discussed; practical business, such as building maintenance or ordering of furniture, is discussed and voted on, old business is discussed (ad nauseum), charity projects planned, and occasionally, a special presentation from one of the members; and when possible, the degree is performed on new candidates. After it is al done, a ritual is used to close the meeting, and everyone leaves to home or refreshment (usually in the form of sustenance that makes diabetics like me need an extra shot for the day 🙂 )

From what little I have been told by the “non-secret” KoCs here, it isn’t much different than what they do at their own meetings. The same reasons given for why one cannot attend a KoC meeting without membership were the same as those I got for why a non-mason cannot sit in on a meeting without being a member as well. Frankly, they are logical enough, I cannot see why anyone objects to either organization closing the doors to their meetings, which are just archaic ritualized Board meetings.

As to Morals and Dogma, one part of what the anit-masons always leaves out is the part where “lucifer” is explained as being that spirit that causes some masons to get distracted from the philosophical teachings of Masonry, and instead set their hearts on the honors and trapping of the degrees, the “false light of Lucifer” which blinds them to the true light of Masonry. If the entire passage is read in context, it should prove obvious that Pike was not “endorsing” this situation, merely reminding members of that degree that even at their “high” level of initiation, they were not immune to this error of vision, this adhereance to the false light of Lucifer which causes them to seek titles and medals in lieu of the light of God, and that for many masons, it is the only light they know.

Chaz: From what you have written regarding your Grandfather, he is very unlikely a Scottish Rite Mason, and therefore Pike’s writings will not likely generate any particular response. Keep in mind that Pike’s masonic “authority” to elaborate or define the intent of masonic ritual extends only to members of the Scottish Rite; non-SR masons could care less as to what he had to say about masonry; to them Pike is just like many other writers of masonic philosophy, like the ya-hoos who wrote The Hiram Key, perhaps a “fun” read, but nothing to bank on or take seriously.

For the record: I am not suggesting that anyone reading this should consider becoming a Mason, especially if you are Catholic. I am only trying to help clear up some mis-information so that, for those of you so inclined, can focus on the actual and very real differences and incompatibilities, not the regurgitatied and frankly untrue and mis-reported tripe that generally characterizes anti-anything.

One of the most refreshing things I love about Catholicism is that it generally tries to form rational and reasoned arguments against those things to which it is opposed (that, and that it actually has the guts to insist that there is an absolute Truth, which is a functional incompatability with the masonic philosophy btw).

Anybody can demonize an enemy. It takes Love to understand and heal the enemity and bring them Home.

Caritas numquam excidit
 
👍 Bump!! to that post. Finally an anwser with some logic and thinking behinde it!!:blessyou:
 
I’m, yet again as I read through the threads on this forum, disgusted by the attitude of certain members.

A forum on the internet may be a bastion of the Catholic faith, but it does not have to be defended from other religions ‘infiltrating’ it.

The automatic reflex that both junior and senior members seem to share of jumping on any comment said in rebuke to another comment which is about another religion/organisation is depressing.

I really only read these threads, but it is in fact very disturbing. In fact, every post I read by certain members pushes me further from the Catholic faith, as they are simply ignored by other members and moderators.

All I can say is that while I was amicable to listening to the arguements over why conversion to the Catholic Church is a good idea before, now I am almost hostile to any such conversations.

It is a pity, really, that people respect those who should not be respected.
 
The real issue is: what kind of God do masons worship?
I ask all people who declared here that masons are o.k, and “it is for christians”: Can christian masons declare that Jesus is God?
what would muslim masons anwser on that?
or is this “grand architect of universe” false interpretation of God? is it maybe some interpretation that is good for all religions, that all religions may find their own God in the sence of “grand arhitect of universe”???
 
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UKStudent:
I’m, yet again as I read through the threads on this forum, disgusted by the attitude of certain members.
Is the tree bad because some of its apples have worms? Or do you look at the rotten apples that have fallen from the branch, and say that the tree is no good? If you want to find an organization with perfect members you’ve got a long and frustrating search ahead, and the one that will attract you most will likely be small (fewer possible “attitude” problems) and young (no messy history). Good luck and God bless.

jb
 
Croat, the point is, all masons do not share the same faith; if they did, then the case that freemasonry is a religion would make a lot more sense. But the don’t.

As the vast majority of masons belong to a monothiestic faith, particularly a Judeo-Christian one, they all aknowledge that God is the creator of all that is, despite the fact that some are theists, some are deists, or cannot otherwise agree as to particulars beyond that point, such as to if God allows Free Will or not. The Masonic order ignores those things that cause divisions, and only speak of God and religion in terms that all its members can agree on. The title “Great Architect of the Universe” not only adresses God on terms that everyone in Lodge can agree to, but also figures in thematically to the whole use of masonry terms to explain the philosophy.

Those who feel that if “Christ” is not directly, and exclusively, meant when referring to God means that you are not referring to God at all, then your own attitude is what excludes Christ from the Lodge (and America for that matter), not the Lodge itself. Christians who can accept this will see no particular obstruction to their faith in a Masonic Lodge. Those Christians who cannot, will find nothing “christian” in Lodge, for obvious reasons.

The point of freemasonry, is to form a brotherhood of men, despite those differences which normally separate them. Consider when and where freemasonry began: turn of the 18th century England. The Catholic-Protestant wars were still fresh in society’s mind, but mixed in with a desire for unity amongst people (sure, nationalism was on the rise as well, but those forming the lodges were side-stepping that division as well).

Every freemason is expected to come to their own conclusions about God themselves, and apply the masonic lessons taught however they fit within that faith. To some, the GAOTU is God the Father; as mentioned elsewhere, Pike saw the GAOTU as Christ, some masons see GAOTU as the divine soul that we all eminate from. Do these interpretations derive from Masonry? No, they are the individual conclusions drawn by the individual mason. Any mason trying to “force” these interpretaions on another is censured or corrected by his brother masons, even those who agree to his interpretation.

If you cannot sit next to a Jew or Muslim and allow them to pray to their understanding of God, while you pray to Christ as well, then I do not think you would find a masonic Lodge a very comfortable place to be.
 
Lost&Found:
Hard to believe you’re allowed to march right into catholic.com and try to solicit members, isn’t it Casen? Then again, I suppose Christ’s church is apt to be infinitely more open and transparent than the Masonic’s secret organization.

You advertise that your networking pays off for you; so you’ll scoop a few members here. I wonder why we can’t say the same about Catholic presidents (just one); probably because God’s kingdom is not of this world.

It’s funny because Masons regularly visit this forum with one story, and yet when I open your Mason books, I notice huge energy attacking the Catholic faith (with Hiram book they let ‘er rip starting page two, for a five-page rant just to get warmed up.) And was it not Masons who provided the false history for the book “Da Vinci Code”.

You Masons have a very active PR department getting the message out. That’s why you are able to quote your figures so readily, of 3 million Masons contributing 1 million dollars per day. Those contribution figures commendable, because I can’t respond with exactly how much the 72 million American Catholics contribute to charity every week (but it’s probably better than our odds of presidency). With Catholicism the contribution is less for PR recruitment & job advancement - and more in the name of our Father in Heaven, our Savior Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit.
I have known a few and the higher you go the worse it gets as stated. It is sad Casen that you have been that gullible to believe that they are not harmful. Pick up a few books on the Masonic Lodge.
 
Here’s a great source of information on the subject at hand…Catholicism & Freemasonry…the most I’ve found in one place (just keep scrolling down!).

showcase.netins.net/web/clearlight/mason.html#001

If you go to a “Masonic” site like the one Casen recommended, you’ll get a lot of fanciful non-history a la the DaVinci Code. Their claims are simply not supportable. If you’re a Catholic, suffice it to say that it’s not acceptable to be a Mason…period. The link above should provide all the information you need.

As to the claim that Masons are some sort of satanic cult or something, I’m not buying it. Are there Catholic who are Masons and are not aware of a conflict of integrity, you bet. If you know any, send them the link above, and recommend a fraternity compatible with their faith like the K of C.

God bless you all.

jb
 
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Absurdum:
It appears that a lot of silliness results when the subject of masons comes up in this forum. Here are some facts about masons:
  1. Masons don’t worship the devil.
  2. Freemasonry has a history of anticatholicism.
  3. Freemasonry is similar enough to protestantism that Catholics are not allowed to join.
The end.
I always find the idea that people who are rabidly anti-Catholic are not satan worshippers rather bizarre. . How does this mesh? Rabidly anti-Catholic/Real Presence. Hating Catholics. Hating Real Presence/ but not satan worshippers. How does this work, for this seems like a dance with very complicated steps.
 
Simple, really:

a Satan worshipper actively, and knowingly, and with full intent, worships/adores/edifies/blesses satan.

Even if you want to use the “if you are not with me, you are against me” position; then Christian Masons and Protestants are pawns of satan, not ones who turn and actively seek out satan to edify him, and in fact are as repulsed to the idea as you are, especially those durn Knight Templars, who are obligated by signed vow to defend the Christian Church.

Calling them “satan worshippers” is pure unjustified and inflammatory rhetoric.

Anyway, Jordon’s site has copies of the actual documents used by the current RCC to explain their position. That is all you need, especially as some are signed by (then) Cardinal Ratzinger (you know… that Benedict XVI guy in Rome).

In the “for what it is worth” category; when I was still in the process of grappling with my own Masonic status as I approached joining the RCC, I did not find that web page particularly helpful. Perhaps it did not have all of the references it does now, or I was just still blind to them, seeking the wiggle room necessary to remain an active mason (as the bodies here are very small, and I was an officer in many of them, I was sorely needed and did not wish to unduly burden them, especially their charitable projects of which I was the head).

Anyway, if anyone is interested in what the RCC has to say NOW (as in the last 20-30 years) about the masons, the site Jordon listed is a good one. (For you traditionalists, Rome has not budged, just articulated in a more compassionate tone their previous stand.)

There are incompatibilities with the RCC; but if Rome does not insist (any more) that they are rabid Satan Worshippers, then where do you find your authority to do so in Her name?
 
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BJRumph:
Simple, really:

a Satan worshipper actively, and knowingly, and with full intent, worships/adores/edifies/blesses satan.

Even if you want to use the “if you are not with me, you are against me” position; then Christian Masons and Protestants are pawns of satan, not ones who turn and actively seek out satan to edify him, and in fact are as repulsed to the idea as you are, especially those durn Knight Templars, who are obligated by signed vow to defend the Christian Church.

Calling them “satan worshippers” is pure unjustified and inflammatory rhetoric.

Anyway, Jordon’s site has copies of the actual documents used by the current RCC to explain their position. That is all you need, especially as some are signed by (then) Cardinal Ratzinger (you know… that Benedict XVI guy in Rome).

In the “for what it is worth” category; when I was still in the process of grappling with my own Masonic status as I approached joining the RCC, I did not find that web page particularly helpful. Perhaps it did not have all of the references it does now, or I was just still blind to them, seeking the wiggle room necessary to remain an active mason (as the bodies here are very small, and I was an officer in many of them, I was sorely needed and did not wish to unduly burden them, especially their charitable projects of which I was the head).

Anyway, if anyone is interested in what the RCC has to say NOW (as in the last 20-30 years) about the masons, the site Jordon listed is a good one. (For you traditionalists, Rome has not budged, just articulated in a more compassionate tone their previous stand.)

There are incompatibilities with the RCC; but if Rome does not insist (any more) that they are rabid Satan Worshippers, then where do you find your authority to do so in Her name?
I’m sorry, but where I sit, the stuff my grandpa was into was purely pagan. Is it satanic? I’m no exorcist, but I will say whenever is possessed with as much hatred as that for the Real Presence of Christ, it’s a sure bet satan is lurking somewhere in the midst of it.
 
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BJRumph:
A few more points:

32° Mason = NOT the highest degree, even within the AASR, which is the only modern organization to have said degree. The highest degree in the AASR is the 33°

Knight Templar = Not the highest degree either, except within a Commandery of the York Rite.

Other bodies have their own sets of degrees (for instance, the Shriners have but a single degree; whereas the defunct and non-recognized Rite of Memphis had 96 degrees!!).

When speaking of Freemasonry, the third degree, Master Mason, is the “highest” degree recognized.

What Happens at meetings:
a ritual is used to open the meeting; minutes are read, bills are paid, schedulaing of events, such as initiations, are discussed; practical business, such as building maintenance or ordering of furniture, is discussed and voted on, old business is discussed (ad nauseum), charity projects planned, and occasionally, a special presentation from one of the members; and when possible, the degree is performed on new candidates. After it is al done, a ritual is used to close the meeting, and everyone leaves to home or refreshment (usually in the form of sustenance that makes diabetics like me need an extra shot for the day 🙂 )

From what little I have been told by the “non-secret” KoCs here, it isn’t much different than what they do at their own meetings. The same reasons given for why one cannot attend a KoC meeting without membership were the same as those I got for why a non-mason cannot sit in on a meeting without being a member as well. Frankly, they are logical enough, I cannot see why anyone objects to either organization closing the doors to their meetings, which are just archaic ritualized Board meetings.

As to Morals and Dogma, one part of what the anit-masons always leaves out is the part where “lucifer” is explained as being that spirit that causes some masons to get distracted from the philosophical teachings of Masonry, and instead set their hearts on the honors and trapping of the degrees, the “false light of Lucifer” which blinds them to the true light of Masonry. If the entire passage is read in context, it should prove obvious that Pike was not “endorsing” this situation, merely reminding members of that degree that even at their “high” level of initiation, they were not immune to this error of vision, this adhereance to the false light of Lucifer which causes them to seek titles and medals in lieu of the light of God, and that for many masons, it is the only light they know.

Chaz: From what you have written regarding your Grandfather, he is very unlikely a Scottish Rite Mason, and therefore Pike’s writings will not likely generate any particular response. Keep in mind that Pike’s masonic “authority” to elaborate or define the intent of masonic ritual extends only to members of the Scottish Rite; non-SR masons could care less as to what he had to say about masonry; to them Pike is just like many other writers of masonic philosophy, like the ya-hoos who wrote The Hiram Key, perhaps a “fun” read, but nothing to bank on or take seriously.

For the record: I am not suggesting that anyone reading this should consider becoming a Mason, especially if you are Catholic. I am only trying to help clear up some mis-information so that, for those of you so inclined, can focus on the actual and very real differences and incompatibilities, not the regurgitatied and frankly untrue and mis-reported tripe that generally characterizes anti-anything.

One of the most refreshing things I love about Catholicism is that it generally tries to form rational and reasoned arguments against those things to which it is opposed (that, and that it actually has the guts to insist that there is an absolute Truth, which is a functional incompatability with the masonic philosophy btw).

Anybody can demonize an enemy. It takes Love to understand and heal the enemity and bring them Home.

Caritas numquam excidit
There one critical difference between the Masons and the KoC – the KoC have the blessing and approval of the church and the Masons do not.
 
Sir Knight is pretty much exactly right in what was said about the Masons. And to those who are Masons, or know Masons and claim that the devil is not worshiped, of course you probably do not know about it because that is the point. The people in the lower degrees are not allowed to know what goes on in the degrees above them. And the higher degrees are not allowed to talk about the rites and rituals that take place with those who have not got to that degree yet.

The thing that is scary is the fact that in each degree the members are required to place a curse on their family. Each degree is a different curse, and each degree has a ever more creative punishment (always a very long painful death) for those who tell anyone about the ritual that just took place.

I know this because I went through the denunciation process because I had a grandfather on the non-Catholic side of the family who was a member. In this denunciation process, since I didn’t know how high of a degree he was, I had to read through all the degrees’ rites and state that I reject it. The higher degrees (20s and higher) is when the truth of the Satanic stuff starts to come out, even to the point when they state that Lucifer is the true god.

How do I know that this is real? Because there was a priest present during this because it is known that when someone goes through the denunciation they are spirtually attacked to try to keep the person from going through the denunciation process. I was also attacked. Since I was only attacked during the first 2 degrees, we figured out that my grandfather was a 2nd degree.

Many of the physical problems I had growing up including, heart problems, digestive, and allergies were curses that the masons put on their families in the first 2 degrees. All my cousins on that side of the family have similar problems, espcially with allergies. They are now all no longer a problem for me.
 
Sorry, but what?

You had to go through a denunciation rite because your grandfather was a mason?

You stopped “being attacked” at the fellowcraft degree, ergo your grandfather must have only been a fellowcraft?And yet you continued beyond this?

Which degrees did you end up denouncing?

Sorry, but this is way beyond anything I have yet to ever hear about. I admit that I am new, but I have yet to hear anything about a denuciation from my local Bishop or priest. If there is such a thing, then I would expect to have to go through it myself; but it doesn’t follow that my children and my future grandchildren would have to as well. Anyone else know anything about this and can explain it?

Also, could you point out an example of a curse that a mason takes that affects his family (if any curse at all)? Obviously there is nothing explicit, so I am assuming there is just something obscured that I missed in the 42 various degrees from various rites that I participated in as an initiate and as a ritualist. I submit that such is possible (I can be mislead as easily as any), but as such a thing is against even the most basic fundamentals of masonic obligation, I would be extremely suprised to be shown such.

Further, the vow of secrecy does not become increasingly more sinister as you “progress”, at the 20th or any further degree. In the SR, the “penalties” are nothing more than the stain upon your character of being unfaithfull to your obligation (don’t recall at the moment the exact wording). The bloodiest stuff is in the Blue Lodge (1-3°) degrees, though the YR tries to maintain the effect better than the SR.

On point that I can make clear; Lucifer is never mentioned in the ritual of any of the Scottish Rite, York Rite, Shrine, or Blue Lodge. You are obviously mistaking Albert Pike’s Morals and Dogma as being ritual. It is not. It is a collection of lectures he gave regarding the many degrees of the scottish rite, expounding his own ideas regarding them (and sometime he just took off on some spur not related (except tangentally) to the degree at all, discussing social justice in american politics of his day rather than anything that had direct relation tot he ritual of the degree). Secondly, I already explained the pike reference to lucifer, so I won’t bore everyone else with it again.

Also;

Though important, surely there are more profound differences between masonry and the KoC than simply the approval of Rome. Otherwise, the tenor of the discussion between the two would be far different than what it is.
 
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