Mass Absence

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ok, just for the record, you passed judgement on this survey without reading it. Do you then expect me to respect your opinions when you haven’t shown any to me or the work that was done by a major university?

I have seen the CARA surveys in the past.

I am sorry that you feel that I must read every new survey they come out with to comment on it.

I know about surveys. If the survey does not publish the questions it has asked and the methods used in asking them then they hold no weight with me.

If they do so (which this one did list its method as was given earlier in the thread) they hold little weight with me.

Especially when they use self-identification for how to determine who is a Catholic.

 

[angelic06]

There are problems with surveys.

Who was surveyed? Is someone who does not go to Mass every Sunday really a Catholic? Many people self-identify as Catholic yet in reality they are not Catholics. So if this survey included them it is garbage as it is listing them as Catholics which they really are not. At best they are dissenting Catholics as they are dissenting from the actual Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Next, what were the questions asked and how were they asked.

Surveys can be manipulated when they are created to get a desired outcome. Especially when you are picking who you are going to give the survey to.

If you can not tell, I am not a fan of surveys or political polls.

Glory to Jesus Christ, Brother David!

I normally do not take issue with your posts, which are overall very good, but I will post this one beef, if you will…

I think it is a sorry statistic nevertheless. If we use as our operational definition that a Catholic is one who is baptized and chrismated in the the Holy Church, I can tell from my own anecdotal knowledge, that according to the self-reports of those Catholics that I know, the ones who were presented to the bishop for chrismation with me over a decade and a half ago, many of them no longer practice the faith if we use even a bare minimum Mass attendance as practicing the faith. If we define Catholic as a person who attends Mass/DL/Quorbono every Sunday as their condition permits it, then we have a rosy picture, but it does not help if we want to make correlations between Mass/DL attendance vs. CCD quality, lousy worship, bad preaching, etc.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Brother, Is the purpose of the Church not the salvation of souls? Should we not be concerned by the volume of Catholics abandoning their faith?

If you will deny the identity of a Catholic based on their Mass attendance, what is your standard? Do you have to attend every week to call yourself a Catholic? Monthly? Where’s the cut off line?

I know you don’t like surveys, but here’s another. Please tell me what percentage of baptized Catholics you think fulfill their Sunday obligation?

gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2011/01/collapse-of-cultural-catholicism.html

“Thursday, January 27, 2011
The Collapse of Cultural Catholicism
SheryWeddell at the St Catherine of Siena Institute reports that 32% of Americans raised Catholic abandon the identity altogether by their mid twenties. An additional 38% retain the identity but rarely practice their faith. 30% of those who call themselves Catholic attend Mass only once a month. On a given Sunday only about 15.6% of American Catholics attend Mass.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Glory to Jesus Christ, Brother David!

I normally do not take issue with your posts, which are overall very good, but I will post this one beef, if you will…

I think it is a sorry statistic nevertheless. If we use as our operational definition that a Catholic is one who is baptized and chrismated in the the Holy Church, I can tell from my own anecdotal knowledge, that according to the self-reports of those Catholics that I know, the ones who were presented to the bishop for chrismation with me over a decade and a half ago, many of them no longer practice the faith if we use even a bare minimum Mass attendance as practicing the faith. If we define Catholic as a person who attends Mass/DL/Quorbono every Sunday as their condition permits it, then we have a rosy picture, but it does not help if we want to make correlations between Mass/DL attendance vs. CCD quality, lousy worship, bad preaching, etc.

Glory forever!

I can not in good conscience call a non-practicing Catholic a Catholic. I call them what they are, a non-practicing Catholic.

I agree the biggest issue is bad Catechisis.

But how do we take these types of surveys and do the necessary correlation between Mass/DL attendance vs. CCD quality, lousy worship, bad preaching, ect?

I know of no follow up surveys or even current surveys that include these sort of questions. It seems these surveys just want to trumpet the lack of weekly Mass/DL attendance and the lack of belief in the real presence, they do not see to ask the follow up questions as to why these are so.

 

[ProVobis]

I dont need a survey to tell me there is a lack of attendance at Mass. I can see it with my own eyes

Exactly. The numbers of those who attend and receive communion are easily obtainable. And it’s also easy to see the Polish and some other cultures have much higher attendance records, while showing lower communion rates. What each group believes is anyone’s educated guess but there’s a good chance those who refrain from receiving know the rules and believe that communion isn’t normal food. There are probably better ways of determining whether those who do receive believe in the Real Presence but I’ll leave that part up to the poll takers.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

I know of no follow up surveys or even current surveys that include these sort of questions. It seems these surveys just want to trumpet the lack of weekly Mass/DL attendance and the lack of belief in the real presence, they do not see to ask the follow up questions as to why these are so.

What a fitting observation as that was the motivation for my thread. I’d like to know from you all here why you think people don’t go to Mass like they once did and what we can do to bring them back.

Brother, how do you define a practicing Catholic? As I asked earlier is it by Mass attendance and if so in what frequency?

 

[Pug]

What a fitting observation as that was the motivation for my thread. I’d like to know from you all here why you think people don’t go to Mass like they once did and what we can do to bring them back.

Perhaps it would be easier to have a greater percentage go to mass if we lived in communities, rather than spread to the four winds. People used to live within blocks of their parish, perhaps most of their lives.

I don’t think it is for nothing that many consecrated (religious) live in communities. I live in a world that has nothing to do with Catholicism. It is only when I darken the door of the parish or hang around here that there are visible Catholics.

 

[SKWill]

I can not in good conscience call a non-practicing Catholic a Catholic. I call them what they are, a non-practicing Catholic.

I think you’re missing the big picture here – a concept shown by surveys time and time again: There is something special about Catholic identity that results in non-practicing/lapsed Catholics continuing to identify themselves as Catholics. The fact that you don’t like that non-practicing, lapsed or incredibly-dissenting Catholics still consider themselves Catholic doesn’t change the reality that in their minds they still are.

 

[ProVobis]

I think you’re missing the big picture here – a concept shown by surveys time and time again: There is something special about Catholic identity that results in non-practicing/lapsed Catholics continuing to identify themselves as Catholics. The fact that you don’t like that non-practicing, lapsed or incredibly-dissenting Catholics still consider themselves Catholic doesn’t change the reality that in their minds they still are.

This is true. However for the sake of statistics it would be hard to distinguish between non-practicing Catholics and ex-Catholics, who I understand represent the highest single denomination in Christianity in the U.S. Both of them are bothersome.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

What are the guidelines for “practicing” Catholic? Do we include the couples who show up every week yet average two children? Some seem to think it’s frequency at Sunday Mass, so how many misses until you are considered not practicing anymore? Dissenters I understand, but I’ve seen clergy preach on the need for married priests and female ordination. How would they be catagorized?

 

[ProVobis]

What are the guidelines for “practicing” Catholic? Do we include the couples who show up every week yet average two children? Some seem to think it’s frequency at Sunday Mass, so how many misses until you are considered not practicing anymore?

Good question. What about frequenting the other sacraments such as confession? How often is considered practicing? Once a year?

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

At this point hope is to get some if not all the eighty percent who stay home Sundays back to the church. Of course respecting the Church’s teachings and laws along with participation in the Sacrament (especially Confession) is important, but I see step one as attendance. Right now I’m thinking the trend of disbelief in the Real Presence is a major factor. Why don’t people believe today as they once did? What can we do to change this? Any other factors as to why people don’t come to Mass?

 

[ProVobis]

Right now I’m thinking the trend of disbelief in the Real Presence is a major factor.

Then you’ll have to distinguish between the rejection of the Real Presence, non-knowledge of the Real Presence, and a distorted Protestant belief of consubstantiation. It’s possible to be among the latter two and still attend every Sunday, no?

 

[vsedriver]

This link contains the methodology used:

nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2009/09/nuances-of-accurately-measuring-mass.html

Self-identified Catholics were surveyed. A person who** self-identifies **as Catholic can be anything from an actual, baptized, Mass attending Catholic to someone who has an Irish grandmother.

So, I don’t believe these people were qualified by the survey process in any way to have some sort of benchmark for what a “Catholic” is.

I encountered something like this with a neighbor. She was sending her daughter to the Catholic school because, well her daughter was Catholic. I asked her which Mass she went to since I hadn’t seen her or her daughter in church. They didn’t go to church. In our conversation I learned that her daughter hadn’t even been Baptized in the church. But she was Catholic because her grandfather was Catholic!

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Then you’ll have to distinguish between the rejection of the Real Presence, non-knowledge of the Real Presence, and a distorted Protestant belief of consubstantiation. It’s possible to be among the latter two and still attend every Sunday, no?

Perhaps. I have yet to delve into the subject of how Protestants view the Real Presence. I know Lutherans and Anglicans have “communion” but I was led to believe they do it just as a symbolic or reflective thing to do. My understanding has always been at Holy Communion - that’s Jesus. The minister says, “The Body of Christ” almost as a question and we answer in the affirmative with “Amen”. Same at Adoration - that’s Jesus on the altar. I don’t know all the nuances and terminology as I’ve seen this as straight forward. It is either Jesus or it is a symbol. A crucifix isn’t really Jesus, it’s a symbol. If lapsed Catholics think a consecrated host is just a symbol then all they have to do is get a crucifix in their home and save a trip to Mass on Sunday.

 

[Sarabande]

At this point hope is to get some if not all the eighty percent who stay home Sundays back to the church. Of course respecting the Church’s teachings and laws along with participation in the Sacrament (especially Confession) is important, but I see step one as attendance. Right now I’m thinking the trend of disbelief in the Real Presence is a major factor.

I’m not surprised by the stats as many Catholics I know in real life who consider themselves as practicing Catholics either doubt or have a difficult time accepting that it truly is the Real Presence. Some just doubt it all together, but don’t think it’s a necessary part of being Catholic. Others do their best to accept it, but can’t really wrap their heads around it. I can understand the latter. It can seem like a pretty “radical” belief.

Why don’t people believe today as they once did? What can we do to change this? Any other factors as to why people don’t come to Mass?

I really can’t answer for everyone. I think for some people, they need to have some sort of tangible proof. Everything in the earthly world appears to be very concrete, obvious. The mystery in many things within our lives have been diminished or have become obsolete. So, too, with the mystery within our faith as Christians… Catholics more specifically. More people need scientific proof of things and so they have a more difficult time basing their beliefs on just faith alone. I’m not a theologian or an expert in religion. I also am not going to pretend that I can prove something such as the Real Presence being there. I can’t… at least I personally cannot. But I have never doubted it, even when I’ve tried to intellectually prove for myself that it couldn’t be actually true. Perhaps it’s because I do believe that there are so many intangibles within the world which cannot be completely understood by a human mind. Perhaps it’s because I choose to believe it. But one thing is for certain… I have always had this absolute innate sense within me that it is completely true and right. It’s something I realize I can never use as back up as to why I do believe it.

Now in terms as to why people may not be coming to mass… again, I think it varies with people. Most of the ones I know just think it is a “man-made” rule within the Church. They believe that they are spiritual people, believe in God and Jesus, but don’t think that they have to be there for Mass every Sunday. There are others… again I’m thinking of people I know personally… who don’t go because they are caught up in the stress and craziness of life. A lot of them are superinvolved in their children’s sports, dance, etc. which tend to take place all weekend long. I’m not putting parents down who are involved with these things… it’s great to be involved, but sometimes they put that first ahead of going to mass. Although they consider themselves church-goers, when it comes to their son being on the hockey team tournaments or their daughter in dance competitions, they consider it a personal “dispensation” to miss mass.

I will not pretend to see what’s in their hearts, so I will not judge them. I have tried to point them in the right direction when they mention to me that they can’t go to mass. I tell them about masstimes.org so that they can find a church near-by, but the response to me is that it’s just such a busy day, even when they found a church near-by, the times just didn’t fit into their schedule.

I think all of this change in attitude has to do with a lack of education for our faith. I rarely hear priests talk about it this at mass. Perhaps if they incorporate it more often into their homilies along with other info on our faith, it might help. We had a priest who did that. It was a small parish in a rural community which my family frequented whenever we visited there on weekends. He got most of the parishioners to buy their own catechism. After the homily, he’d then take little parts of the catechism and helped explain it. I think it was the best thing. It was always a great parish, wonderful community, but I think it got even better after that and it was inspiring.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

I’m not surprised by the stats as many Catholics I know in real life who consider themselves as practicing Catholics either doubt or have a difficult time accepting that it truly is the Real Presence. Some just doubt it all together, but don’t think it’s a necessary part of being Catholic. Others do their best to accept it, but can’t really wrap their heads around it. I can understand the latter. It can seem like a pretty “radical” belief.

I really can’t answer for everyone. I think for some people, they need to have some sort of tangible proof. Everything in the earthly world appears to be very concrete, obvious. The mystery in many things within our lives have been diminished or have become obsolete. So, too, with the mystery within our faith as Christians… Catholics more specifically. More people need scientific proof of things and so they have a more difficult time basing their beliefs on just faith alone. I’m not a theologian or an expert in religion. I also am not going to pretend that I can prove something such as the Real Presence being there. I can’t… at least I personally cannot. But I have never doubted it, even when I’ve tried to intellectually prove for myself that it couldn’t be actually true. Perhaps it’s because I do believe that there are so many intangibles within the world which cannot be completely understood by a human mind. Perhaps it’s because I choose to believe it. But one thing is for certain… I have always had this absolute innate sense within me that it is completely true and right. It’s something I realize I can never use as back up as to why I do believe it.

Now in terms as to why people may not be coming to mass… again, I think it varies with people. Most of the ones I know just think it is a “man-made” rule within the Church. They believe that they are spiritual people, believe in God and Jesus, but don’t think that they have to be there for Mass every Sunday. There are others… again I’m thinking of people I know personally… who don’t go because they are caught up in the stress and craziness of life. A lot of them are superinvolved in their children’s sports, dance, etc. which tend to take place all weekend long. I’m not putting parents down who are involved with these things… it’s great to be involved, but sometimes they put that first ahead of going to mass. Although they consider themselves church-goers, when it comes to their son being on the hockey team tournaments or their daughter in dance competitions, they consider it a personal “dispensation” to miss mass.

I will not pretend to see what’s in their hearts, so I will not judge them. I have tried to point them in the right direction when they mention to me that they can’t go to mass. I tell them about masstimes.org so that they can find a church near-by, but the response to me is that it’s just such a busy day, even when they found a church near-by, the times just didn’t fit into their schedule.

I think all of this change in attitude has to do with a lack of education for our faith. I rarely hear priests talk about it this at mass. Perhaps if they incorporate it more often into their homilies along with other info on our faith, it might help. We had a priest who did that. It was a small parish in a rural community which my family frequented whenever we visited there on weekends. He got most of the parishioners to buy their own catechism. After the homily, he’d then take little parts of the catechism and helped explain it. I think it was the best thing. It was always a great parish, wonderful community, but I think it got even better after that and it was inspiring.

What a wonderful post. Thank you for it. I actually have to go into the office today to see what they’ve been up to since I’ve been away this week. You have given me much to think about and I hope we can continue this discussion later.

 

[ProVobis]

I think all of this change in attitude has to do with a lack of education for our faith. I rarely hear priests talk about it this at mass. Perhaps if they incorporate it more often into their homilies along with other info on our faith, it might help. We had a priest who did that. It was a small parish in a rural community which my family frequented whenever we visited there on weekends. He got most of the parishioners to buy their own catechism. After the homily, he’d then take little parts of the catechism and helped explain it. I think it was the best thing. It was always a great parish, wonderful community, but I think it got even better after that and it was inspiring.

This is a good idea. And yes, people do appreciate a good sermon. In fact, those long spiritual or inspirational sermons comprise most of the Protestant services and do bring out big crowds. Not saying the priests should do the same but they should understand that boring sermons have been known to keep people away.

 

[ProVobis]

What are the guidelines for “practicing” Catholic? Do we include the couples who show up every week yet average two children? Some seem to think it’s frequency at Sunday Mass, so how many misses until you are considered not practicing anymore? Dissenters I understand, but I’ve seen clergy preach on the need for married priests and female ordination. How would they be catagorized?

What about those who very seldom come out for Mass but will observe the meat abstinence on Lenten Fridays? I found a few of these in the IT field.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

What a fitting observation as that was the motivation for my thread. I’d like to know from you all here why you think people don’t go to Mass like they once did and what we can do to bring them back.

Brother, how do you define a practicing Catholic? As I asked earlier is it by Mass attendance and if so in what frequency?

For me it would be one who follows the precepts of the Church.

Weekly Mass attendance, Communion at least once a year after reception of Frist Eucharist, Confession at least once a year after reaching the age of reason. An understanding and acknowledgement of all that the Church Teaches.

That is the bare minimum the Church asks for.

A self proclaimed Catholic who denies what the Church Teaches, in my eyes, is not a Catholic, or as some call them a CINO (Catholic In Name Only).