Mass Abuse

[Strider]

Louis Mazar:

Why are you guys getting bent out of shape about what Priests say or do and how Priests conduct the Mass? Life is too short to be getting bent out of shape over nothing. Just let is slide by and forget about it. If I do not like something that the Priest says or does or how the Mass is being conducted then I just let it slide by and forget about it. I am not going to harm my health by getting bent out of shape over inconsequential things such as what the Priest says or does or how the Mass is being conducted.

I could not disagree with you more. If it were not important, VITALLY important, then Canon Law, the G.I.R.M., Ecclesia de Eucharistia and Redemptionis Sacramentum would never have been promulgated. All that work, all that writing and re-writing just to make sure that each Mass is said with the SAME reverence and devotion, in the SAME way, so that the Source and Summit or our faith, the Eucharist, is not desecrated or disrespected in any way.
As far as harming health, seeing abuses makes me physically ill with anger and disgust. It is NOT the priest’s Mass, it is the Church’s Mass. Who do they think they are, making it up as they go along, doing what THEY consider relevant?
Your attitude shows poor catechesis and sloppy thinking. I will pray for you (I don’t care if that bothers some on this forum. I disagree strongly with him, I truly believe he needs another conversion and I will pray for it.)

 

[Mysty101]

There are degrees of abuse.

For major abuse peruse this site.

[stjoan.com/features/featurefr.htm](Saint Joan of Arc Catholic Community | St. Joan of Arc Church)

Actually for major abuses you should see this

usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml#10

**

1. Graviora Delicta

1. Graviora delicta against the sanctity of the Most August Sacrifice and Sacrament of the Eucharist are to be handled in accordance with the Norms Concerning Graviora Delicta Reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,280 namely:

1. 
   *]taking away or retaining the consecrated species for sacrilegious ends, or the throwing them away;281
   *]the attempted celebration of the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice or the simulation of the same;282
   *]the forbidden concelebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice with ministers of Ecclesial Communities that do not have the apostolic succession nor acknowledge the sacramental dignity of priestly Ordination;283
   *]the consecration for sacrilegious ends of one matter without the other in the celebration of the Eucharist or even of both outside the celebration of the Eucharist.284
   
   2. Grave Matters
   
   173. Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nos. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.
   
   **

 

[pnewton]

Everyone has expressed very well the importance of responding to Mass abuse. I do not understand the level of emotion directed at the original poster for asking the question. So why get bent out of shape because someone else it now bent out of shape at Mass Abuse? (or is someone going to get bent out of shape because I am not bent out of shape at someone not being bent out of shape at Mass abuse?)

 

[TeriGator]

Louis Mazar:

EJ79,

But getting bent out of shape over things only causes health problems for the individual getting bent out of shape. So why would anybody in their right mind want to cause health problems for themselves when they can let things slide by and do not get upset over anything?

I can’t imagine that my distaste for liturgical “embellishments” has had any affects whatsoever on my health. In fact, I think it is far more healthy for conscientious Catholics to discuss things and reinforce each other than to ignore what’s going on. It’s the mass that, in some places, has become rampantly unhealthy.

 

[InnocentIII]

TeriGator:

My concern is not about every tiny thing that Father may do a bit differently. It’s the overall picture that I worry about. Small changes, if done in a rebellious spirit, have a way of becoming big changes. Then they turn into abuse.

Look at the way religious orders, churches and the mass were decimated after Vat2. Those who had a rebellious agenda invoked “the spirit of Vat2” to abandon vows, strip churches bare and turn the holy mass into a free-for-all.

Did this happen everywhere? No. Did it affect the way people view the mass, churches, and worship in the Church? You bet it did! If the small changes had not been seized upon by those with an agenda, we would not have the widespread and egregious abuses that have occured over the past 35-40 years.

This is very true. The Devil as they say is in the details. If someone had stood up 40 years ago and said “There is no Real Presence” and had tried to remove tabernacles, genuflections, crucifixes etc from the churches there would have been a huge outcry and they would have been rightly disciplined. But “salami tactics” always work. How can one argue with the Tabernacle being given its own special place? With standing instead of kneeling? Of receiving in the hand instead of on the tongue? Each of these could be made to sound plausible yet when I walk into a “Catholic” church today and find no sign of Our Lord (the special place is hidden where only the oldies can find it), see people treating the host as though it was a snack cracker, no crucifix in the sanctuary and recently the altar demoted to equality with the lectern and the priests “throne” promoted to focal point of the church then I know the shade of Luther is laughing in his grave.

For twenty years I bit my tongue and said I could live with that till I had nothing left to live with. I was always taught that a symbol was an outward sign of an inward reality. Change the signs and you change the reality - do it slowly and you will be like the frog who boiled because the water was warmed too slowly for him to notice. It is not the action I worry about but the unbelief of those who abandon them.

We must fight every move however insignificant it may appear or we will lose everything.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Strider:

I could not disagree with you more. If it were not important, VITALLY important, then Canon Law, the G.I.R.M., Ecclesia de Eucharistia and Redemptionis Sacramentum would never have been promulgated. All that work, all that writing and re-writing just to make sure that each Mass is said with the SAME reverence and devotion, in the SAME way, so that the Source and Summit or our faith, the Eucharist, is not desecrated or disrespected in any way.
As far as harming health, seeing abuses makes me physically ill with anger and disgust. It is NOT the priest’s Mass, it is the Church’s Mass. Who do they think they are, making it up as they go along, doing what THEY consider relevant?
Your attitude shows poor catechesis and sloppy thinking. I will pray for you (I don’t care if that bothers some on this forum. I disagree strongly with him, I truly believe he needs another conversion and I will pray for it.)

 

[TNT]

All you have to do is take yourself and any remnant of Faithful Catholics OUT of the NOM and go to the TLM… POOOFFF.
No more abuses, no more PC readings or sermons, no more carrying legal Church documents to see what abuse is going on now. No more outrageous attire. You just attend the ULTIMATE in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar.

ps.
Take your donations with you.

Originally Posted by Strider
I could not disagree with you more. If it were not important, VITALLY important, then Canon Law, the G.I.R.M., Ecclesia de Eucharistia and Redemptionis Sacramentum would never have been promulgated. All that work, all that writing and re-writing just to make sure that each Mass is said with the SAME reverence and devotion, in the SAME way, so that the Source and Summit or our faith, the Eucharist, is not desecrated or disrespected in any way. (WOW! what a great definiton of the TLM).

What lasting good have these constant proclaimations done? NONE.
The NOM is so “undefined” and open when the allowances for “particular cultures”, right down to the neighborhood & occupation (like circus employes) “cultures”, are exercised that it is a true analogy of trying to hold a raw egg white in your hand. JPII proved that in his own approved worldwide masses. The abuses of yesterday are the norms today aka “altar girls”, etc. first denied by the pope, then approved by the pope.
It is safe to say with all certainty, the abuses in the NOM will NEVER cease. And that is why you should NOT be upset about abuse. Just exit.
It reminds me of a hyped movie. I go to it and find it was all hype and the movie is a real distortion of the novel upon which it was based. What can I do? Just walk out and preach the truth about it. Writing to the producer will get a nice form letter response about my concerns, but nothing long term will or can be done. Then there are those who like the hokie pokie style. Let them have it…

 

[Purificator]

TNT:

All you have to do is take yourself and any remnant of Faithful Catholics OUT of the NOM and go to the TLM… POOOFFF.

No more abuses, no more PC readings or sermons, no more carrying legal Church documents to see what abuse is going on now. No more outrageous attire. You just attend the ULTIMATE in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar.

That’s simply not true.

Compared to the Pauline Mass, a tiny number attend the Tridentine Mass. Many of those that attend the Tridentine Mass as zealots for following the rubrics of the Mass (not necessarily a bad thing.)

If hundreds of millions (or even millions) of Catholics switched from attending the Pauline Mass to the Tridentine Mass, their priests/bishops would also come a long with them, along with their propensity to encourage liturgical abuse.

The same things plaguing the Pauline Mass would begin to plaque the Tridentine Mass.

In any event there is certainly nothing “ultimate” about the Tridentine Mass over the Pauline Mass – except to those living a fantasy.

 

[Purificator]

Strider:

I could not disagree with you more. If it were not important, VITALLY important, then Canon Law, the G.I.R.M., Ecclesia de Eucharistia and Redemptionis Sacramentum would never have been promulgated. All that work, all that writing and re-writing just to make sure that each Mass is said with the SAME reverence and devotion, in the SAME way, so that the Source and Summit or our faith, the Eucharist, is not desecrated or disrespected in any way.

As far as harming health, seeing abuses makes me physically ill with anger and disgust. It is NOT the priest’s Mass, it is the Church’s Mass. Who do they think they are, making it up as they go along, doing what THEY consider relevant?
Your attitude shows poor catechesis and sloppy thinking. I will pray for you (I don’t care if that bothers some on this forum. I disagree strongly with him, I truly believe he needs another conversion and I will pray for it.)

Quite true. I think theis is one area where Pope Benedict XVI will be far stronger than Pope JPII – implementation. While JPII will no doubt end-up a great saint, I really don’t think he was all that great at managing the details. He was a “big picture man” and it shows – mostly positive, some negative.

 

[Strider]

Sorry, TNT, but I can’t do that. While I love the TLM with which I grew up, the MAGESTERIUM has made the NOM the current standard Mass of the Church. I left the Sacraments once because of the abuses, and I won’t do it again.
I must stay and fight the abuse from the inside. It’s not Father’s Church or my Church, it’s Jesus’ Church, and his apostles have declared how we are to worship him. I WILL NOT walk away.

pnewton, the reason I was upset with Louis, and not really personally with him but with those like him who accede to abuse is that they only make the problem worse.
There is a proper way to say Mass and all priests should do so and ALL LAITY should inform themselves of the rubrics and make father or the authorities aware of abuse, intentional or accidental.
I always keeop in mind that the Church is the body of which Christ is the head and the Mass its highest prayer. Maybe I get a little carried away, but it’s only because I care so much. Can’t help it.

 

[pnewton]

Strider:

pnewton, the reason I was upset with Louis, and not really personally with him but with those like him who accede to abuse is that they only make the problem worse. … Maybe I get a little carried away, but it’s only because I care so much. Can’t help it.

And thanks be to God for those like you. It is important (even critical) that the integrity of the liturgy be protected. I am also symathetic to those who are more easy-going, as is our original poster. It is often more a function of personality than priority. In this respect we should be understanding of those around us. I hope those like our initial poster here has learned from you, lux and the rest here why you are passionate about the liturgy.

 

[Strider]

pnewton,
Yes, I’m sure it has much to do with personality, but I’m still going to pray for him.
Heck, I hope he prays for me. too.

 

[A.Pelliccio]

IDK an abuse committed by a Priest who is supposed to uphold the most sacred traditions of the Church, her apostles and Christ, during the most holy sacrament of the altar is a pretty big deal!

 

[Louis_Mazar]

Strider,

I do not care what anybody states. I still think that it is really illogical to get bent out of shape over something that the Priest states or about some aspect of the Mass that is not done exactly like in other Catholic Churches and the best way to handle it is to just let it slide by and not make waves.

 

[AuntMartha]

Louis Mazar:

Strider,

I do not care what anybody states. I still think that it is really illogical to get bent out of shape over something that the Priest states or about some aspect of the Mass that is not done exactly like in other Catholic Churches and the best way to handle it is to just let it slide by and not make waves.

You are welcome to your opinion. Just don’t get bent out of shape when people don’t agree with you.

 

[Robin_L.in_TX]

The best response is to catechize ourselves so that we recognize what is and is not essential to Christ becoming truly present in our midst, not what it takes for us to FEEL holy. Sometimes the distractions and so-called abuses are really God’s way of getting me to research, meditate and grow in our faith. I found that I got lost in the details when I was uncertain as to whether or not certain abuses invalidated the consecration, leading us into idolatry. God’s grace, clearer understanding of Scripture, liturgy, and our faith have all helped me to learn when to speak up, and when to pray (especially before speaking out).

I would gently remind our pastor, then storm heaven with prayer, about my concerns that someone dropping the Waterford civborium would leave us with the Body of Christ on the floor amongst shards of glass, ask him why we were praying for an end to suffering and trials when my suffering and trials helped lead me back to Christ and our faith, etc. My words didn’t change the use of the crystal ciborium, but the recent changes called forth by the Vatican did, but we have never again prayed for the end to all suffering and trials. My words probably didn’t make us change the Prayers of the Faithful, but perhaps they supported what others had already mentioned.

If a priest is consecrating oat and honey bread, we most certainly should talk to him about it with all the pertinent documents in hand. If he still doesn’t stop, then we must inform the Bishop, moving up to the Vatican, following the preocedure given us in encyclicals.

Are the signs of the Mass important? Absolutely. Is it important to gently ask questions of our pastors before going over their heads? Absolutely. Should we do all of this, if necessary, in a spirit of love, for Jesus, the priest, the pastor, the Bishop, the laity? Absolutely.

I find that Latin prayer in the Mass helps me to feel the Communion of Saints down to my toes, but I have not begun attending the church downtown rather than my local parish. When I considered leaving my local parish, all of my meditations brought the thought to my mind, how can the bread be leavened if all of the yeast goes into bowls already leavened? The particular trials God granted me at that time also taught me the value of prayer. All too often we Americans think we need to jump in and do things ourselves, rather than pray first, and ask God to do His will. When He wants us to speak, if we pray to do His will, we will speak even if we stutter, break out in hives, and have difficulty breathing.

So I have attended the classes for catechists the diocese provides, even though too much of it was problematic. I still bonded with many of my fellow parishioners, and grew a lot–because of those difficulties and the graces of much prayer, meditation, and study before speaking. And I did speak, though humbly, adding the weight of my meditations to those of others who also spoke up.

Nothing has changed yet, but God’s time is not mine. I am blessed, though, to see so much change brought about by the winds of the Holy Spirit blowing through our parish, and in the eyes of our pastor who, though not perfect, does radiate the love of Christ for all of us parishioners–a great change from our former pastor, who I still pray for.

In Christ’s peace and joy,

Robin L. in TX