Mass appropriate "style"

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That is awesome!!! But I didn’t say that all forms of chant are Gregorian. I just said that Gregorian Chant is primarily used in a religious context.
 
Irishmom2 said:
Clare, that is a bit harsh. 😳 I have been in parishes that were totally volunteer music ministries and their music was beautifully done. I have been in churches with professionals that have been terrible. It is really not something that can be made as a generalization.
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Somewhat and somewhat not. Music can be by volunteers but there is a huge difference between a volunteer who is musically trained and a volunteer who picked up the guitar in his mom’s basement.

And about payment…she’s totally correct. The Catholic church tends to be VERY cheap…at least where I am. I have a family member who is a musician. The Lutherans and Methodists pay her FOUR times as much for their service and choir than the cheapest Catholic Church offered. Twice as much as many others did.

So who plays at the Catholic services at the churches she drives by? Often volunteers or non-professionally trained musicians. Do they do a “good” job? Absolutely. But it’s not the same.
 
I agree, NearlyCatholic, people don’t understand how ill-fitting pop/rock style music is in church. And it really doesn’t match the style of Catholic Mass, which is pretty formal. If you do become Catholic, hopefully you can find a parish with more normal and beautiful music.
 
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All this judgment about “musical training” is a real turn-off for anyone wanting to ever volunteer for a music ministry. I have 12 years of “musical training” as I started having weekly lessons when I was 5, eventually played three instruments, sang in choirs and for about a year in a nationally known choral group. I have also known a huge number of musicians in all different genres in my life, some of whom were trained and some of whom were entirely, or almost entirely, self-taught (usually some teacher or older mentor along the way would show them a few tricks). The formal training can be helpful, especially if you’re looking to play classical music, but there are a huge number of extremely good musicians who are not interested in that, do not have much or any formal training, and are great musicians - we’re talking tours, recordings, songwriting, arranging, producing.

I guess it depends on the style of music you’re looking for. If you want somebody doing beautiful historically accurate classical or medieval music, then yes, maybe someone with training. If you want somebody who can do a wonderful job on fairly contemporary songs, or classic hymns, just get someone who can play well, even if he learned in “Mom’s basement” (some awesome musicians have come out of basements and gas stations and hollers and other unlikely places). Sounds like snobbery to me otherwise, sorry.
 
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It’s not an indictment, It’s the reality. And the people that come here and say horrible things about their musicians are the harsh people. I didn’t say they were awful did I?
I’m out.
Thanks
 
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I like I when you announce “I’m out”. Like we are all waiting for your next comment.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
All this judgment about “musical training” is a real turn-off for anyone wanting to ever volunteer for a music ministry. I have 12 years of “musical training” as I started having weekly lessons when I was 5, eventually played three instruments, sang in choirs and for about a year in a nationally known choral group. I have also known a huge number of musicians in all different genres in my life, some of whom were trained and some of whom were entirely, or almost entirely, self-taught (usually some teacher or older mentor along the way would show them a few tricks). The formal training can be helpful, especially if you’re looking to play classical music, but there are a huge number of extremely good musicians who are not interested in that, do not have much or any formal training, and are great musicians - we’re talking tours, recordings, songwriting, arranging, producing.

I guess it depends on the style of music you’re looking for. If you want somebody doing beautiful historically accurate classical or medieval music, then yes, maybe someone with training. If you want somebody who can do a wonderful job on fairly contemporary songs, or classic hymns, just get someone who can play well, even if he learned in “Mom’s basement” (some awesome musicians have come out of basements and gas stations and hollers and other unlikely places). Sounds like snobbery to me otherwise, sorry.
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Isn’t that what the music of the church is supposed to be? Chant, polyphony, and organ? These are the styles mentioned specifically in Vatican II documents, right? Not garage band rock?
 
I agree with you on this one. The negativity about musicians, professional or not, paid or volunteer, is over the top. If a musician is all about the money, don’t work for the Church. No one forces anyone to work for a church. I work for a parish and I know it’s not all about the money for any of us. But if there were a decision to be made on whether the pay the music director more or pay the DRE or Youth Minister more, I’d go for faith formation of our kids every day, all day.
 
Loud-living-dogma said:
Isn’t that what the music of the church is supposed to be? Chant, polyphony, and organ? These are the styles mentioned specifically in Vatican II documents, right? Not garage band rock?
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When I went to see Pope Francis at his General Audience, he had a guitar band of young people from South America playing, not chant or polyphony or organ. Don’t get me wrong, I love me some chant, polyphony, and organ. I also love well-played contemporary Christian, Christian rock, Christian metal, and if somebody wanted to come up with some Christian jazz I’d give it a try. I love John Fahey’s “In Christ There Is No East or West” just like I love the choir and organ at St. Patrick’s Cathedral on Easter Sunday. I frequently go to a Newman Center with an excellent piano, organ and singing group and a Youth Mass elsewhere with an electric guitar and drum group. They do a mean Lion and the Lamb. I already mentioned how in high school I played guitar with about 8 other girls and women and we did a good job - once we had a priest come and play bagpipes with us.

I’ve pretty much heard every type of musical ensemble at a Mass there is to hear, the good, the bad, and the off-key. Plus I live part-time next to an African-American Protestant church with a gospel choir and hear them through the wall frequently.

I like music, period. I like making a joyful noise unto the Lord. I don’t necessarily want to hear the same type of joyful noise every week any more than I want to eat the same Sunday dinner every week.
 
hi Lou I just come from a different paradigm. Women do not lead out in church and we don’t have rock music where I’m from. My taste in music is quite eclectic. But we only get to hear good church music at church. You can hear everything else pretty much anywhere. Shouldn’t church be a bit special instead of common and profane? Everything about our worship should be totally different from the world. I don’t believe drums keeping time are evil. There’s nothing in a guitar that makes it inherently devilish. Point I am making is simply Church service isn’t like hanging out in the pool room or riding down the strip with the top down. IT’S DIFFERENT!
 
Keep in mind most of our “special” church music is just secular music styles from a different era.
 
DarkLight said:
Keep in mind most of our “special” church music is just secular music styles from a different era.
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Hmmm. When were Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony ever secular music styles? 🤯
 
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It’s a little hard to tell with the earlier music forms, simply because of a lack of records. Church music was much more commonly written down and preserved as compared to secular music, so we don’t really see any records of secular music at all until about the 12th century. Gregorian chant itself is probably about 200 years prior to that, although again the written forms of music are relatively rare for many centuries - in fact part of the ascendancy of Gregorian chant was the development and dissemination of written notation. However, if you look up troubadour movements (the earliest written secular music), there’s a very similar monophonic pattern. It seems there’s somewhat of a separate evolution, but it’s not like the church has ever had a monopoly on the idea of plainchant.

And of course what many people think of as “church music”, with hymns and organs, is definitely reflected in secular music of the time it was written.
 
Oh, of course! Gregorian chant is so similar to troubadour music. I’m sure that’s why some people don’t want it in church. Because it’s so secular, so reminiscent of troubadour music!
Now, what about sacred polyphony?

And to the OP, what would you tell her about secular music and the BOOM BOOM BOOM in the beautiful church?
 
i feel bad about saying anything now. I love music and all kinds but when I go to church I enjoy hearing what I don’t get to hear anywhere else. Choirs and organ or strings.
 
It’s a legitimate preference, and I wouldn’t be ashamed of having preferences. Just recognize that different people prefer different things here, and it isn’t inherently unholy to do it differently. That’s not to say I’ve never chosen a Mass based on liking the music, when I had the option to choose.
 
I think it is legit to acknowledge that the Catholic Church does have certain types of music that are ackowledged as having pride of place. Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony, and organ. This is kind of ignored in most parishes though.
So, Nearlycatholic, you unwittingly opened a can of worms with your comment. 😆 I think it was helpful to read what a fresh perspective brings though, so don’t be sorry. 😉
 
Okay, most of your post was about music and how it was notated 1000 years ago, and how Gregorian chant is similar to troubadour songs, yes?
 
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