Mass as idolatry

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Hey,

how would you respond to this:

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-transubstantiation-monophysite.html

And also, when Protestants accuse Catholics of being idoaltrous because of our belief in transubstantiation, what do you say to them? I realize it is not idoltary because Christ is REALLY present, but to someone who does not believe this, to them it seems idoaltry. It was also mentioned by someone that Catholic believe in the B theory of time, the eternal now, which says Christ is still in the process of being crucified. I understand it as a re-presentation, we are making present Christ’s one and only sacrifice, we do not believe He is still being crucifed and that is not why we have a crucifix hanging in the churches as this other person suggests, how is making His Sacrifice present different than what this person is saying?

thanks
 
“B-Theory”? I have never heard this term. However, I assure you that the celebration of the Eucharist IS the bloodless representation of Christ once and eternal sacrifice.

Christ has died. This happened once. However, God exists outside of time, so the Bloodless representation is united in a mysterious way with this single most important moment in history!

But because God exists outside of time, there is no “theory” of time that explain this. It is an event totally beyond the explanations of our physical universe.

The same goes for the transubstantiation that occurs to bread and wine to become the Body and Blood of Christ. Yes, we appear to be worshipping bread and wine, however, we are not we are worshipping Christ.

This is a case where you should just lay your foot down. Simply state that you worship Christ, and that you would appreciate them respecting your belief. If they truly believe otherwise, then don’t waste your breath. Your devout example will speak much more strongly to them.

If they continue, then it is a sign they do not disrespect you. True conversations about faith must begin with respect.
 
Scott Hahn has some great CD’s addressing this “idolatry” issue, as he himself once believed it was idolatry, which “if” JESUS is truly not present it would be idolatry.

Bottom line, you do not have to convince them, it is the words of JESUS that will either move them to the truth, or move them further from GOD.

Simply ask them “if” they believe the bible is true. Then direct them to the Gospel wherein JESUS conducts the Last Supper declaring the truth of HIS transubstantiation, then leave them to the HOLY SPIRIT, or get them some Scott Hahn CD’s.

And NO WHERE in the bible, which they profess as true declares that JESUS is “still dieing” or “still being crucified” or “the church is invisible”. Also get Peter Kreeft CD, 7 reasons why everyone should be Catholic.
 
I don’t really have teh time to read, and digest the blog, but by skimming it appears that the issue of Christ being present in multiple locations hinges on something someone said elsewhere, so I’m not sure if that underlying statement is part of Church teaching or not.
Hopefully someone will be able to take the time to read and properly answer.
And also, when Protestants accuse Catholics of being idoaltrous because of our belief in transubstantiation, what do you say to them? I realize it is not idoltary because Christ is REALLY present, but to someone who does not believe this, to them it seems idoaltry.
Often times there is little you can say to such people.
But here’s the thing. Ask them if they believe Jesus was “fully human AND fully divine”. If the answer is yes, then obviously God was fully present under the “speceis” of human flesh. If they accept that God can do this, why is it so difficult to accept that Jesus can be truly present under the species of bread and wine? The early Church believed fully in the “real Presence” as testified to by Paul in 1 Cor 11:27-29
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
Could Paul, in this direct and powerful statement have believed he was speaking of a symbol? Of course not…St Paul was convicted by the Holy Spirit of the Real presence and wrote, by the prompting of the Spirit, these words above.
It was also mentioned by someone that Catholic believe in the B theory of time, the eternal now, which says Christ is still in the process of being crucified. I understand it as a re-presentation, we are making present Christ’s one and only sacrifice, we do not believe He is still being crucifed and that is not why we have a crucifix hanging in the churches as this other person suggests, how is making His Sacrifice present different than what this person is saying?
The question, really speaks to whether one is thinking “ego-centrically” or “Christo-centrically”. When we say that the mass is a “making present” of Christ’s sacrifice, it is really OUR being made present at the foot of the Cross 2000 years ago, not Christ being brought forward and “recrucified”.
The Ego-centricity of the protestant view, makes “our” time the reality and that Jesus must be being made to come to us on the cross.
the Christo-centricity of the Catholic view, makes "Christ’s time the reality and We go to Jesus to partake of the Lamb…
You are welcome

Peace
James
 
I’m sorry, I didn’t read the blog, but I’ve heard a protestant denomination refer to the Eucharist as cannibalism.

The Protestant Reformation necessarily had to make distinctions in the sacraments, that differed from Catholicism.

Every protestant demonination has varying degrees of interrepting, accepting and denying various understandings that have arisen about baptism and their communion service.

And, every person praticing within protestantism, can search out a denomination that matches what that individual wishes to believe.

I’d agree with them “where they are” and not allow for an argument. Suggest to them, that other people, Catholics in particular, follow a wider and more full interpretation of Sacred Scripture. That this interpretation was used by the Apostles and the Early Church.

Perhaps suggest that they read Justin Martyr’s “Apology to Emperor Antoninus Pius” which was written in 150 AD. In the apology, Justin talks very precisely about the host being the body and blood of Christ.

“But, just as Jesus Christ our Savior was made flesh through the word of God and took on flesh and blood for our salvation, so too (we have been taught) through the word of prayer that comes from him, the food over which the eucharist has been spoken becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus, in order to nourish and transform our flesh and blood.”

Protestants are born into their faith and many are taught to see Catholicism as an abomination or a falsifying of Christianity.

When protestants react toward Catholic sacraments the way that some do,(charges of canabalism and idolatry) it indicates how they were raised to believe their faith.
 
The testimony of the Early Fathers is enough for me. Think about it: do we trust St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of St John the Apostle, or some “reformer” who came 1400 years later who claims to have “rediscovered” the truth. It is absolutely indefensible to think that the Early Fathers somehow got it wrong, and Luther, Calvin, et al, got it right. I discuss this issue on my own blog here.
 
Hey,

how would you respond to this:

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-transubstantiation-monophysite.html

And also, when Protestants accuse Catholics of being idoaltrous because of our belief in transubstantiation, what do you say to them? I realize it is not idoltary because Christ is REALLY present, but to someone who does not believe this, to them it seems idoaltry. It was also mentioned by someone that Catholic believe in the B theory of time, the eternal now, which says Christ is still in the process of being crucified. I understand it as a re-presentation, we are making present Christ’s one and only sacrifice, we do not believe He is still being crucifed and that is not why we have a crucifix hanging in the churches as this other person suggests, how is making His Sacrifice present different than what this person is saying?

thanks
Protestants have little understanding of hte Word of God. I know because i have talked to them and no matter what you say, it will make no diference to them. they even quote things that is not even in teh Bible, yet they believe is there. because of their lack of understanding, you must be very carefull how you approach them. first, you have to start from the basics.
 
how would you respond to this:
Essentially, this Rhology fellow is trying to argue that since Christ is fully human, and since humans can’t be in more than one place at one time, therefore Christ Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity cannot be in more than one place at one time if He is to remain fully human. Rhology is arguing that the Christ present in the Eucharist would have to be bound to the laws of physics to which normal human beings are bound. He says this because the poster CatholicCrimson said Jesus’ humanity was just like ours—to which Rhology philosophizes—Hey! Normal humans can’t be in more than one place at one time.

My instinct, before I even saw it, was to echo what CathApol said in response at the bottom of that page—John 6 takes place right after the multiplication of loaves and fishes. A miracle involving multiplication of bread and fish-the symbol of life.

If Rhology were to be consistent, he would insist that there could be no miracle of loaves and fishes because Jesus has to be bound to the laws of physics. And one fish cannot be two fish. I mean if the fish is fully a fish, it can’t be two fish!! Rhology’s argument, of course, is nonsensical.

But on another note, there is precedent for the bi-location of individuals in history. You can do a search for that, but I know there is testimony to Padre Pio doing this as well. Scripture also attests to Christ being human in every way except sin. Yet that did not prevent Him from performing miraculous healings against the laws of nature did it? It didn’t prevent Him from “passing through the midst” of a crowd that wanted to kill Him in Luke 4, did it? It did not prevent the fully human resurrected Christ to enter the house with locked doors in Jn 20:26, did it? And let’s not forget Philip in Acts 8:39-40 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea. According to Rhology, if Philip were fully human, the Spirit couldn’t teleport him, because after all, humans can’t teleport! Rhology perhaps may not understand the meaning of a miracle, I can’t say.

Anyway, Rhology’s argument is terribly weak, and to boot, it does nothing to address the positive evidence for the Real Presence in the Eucharist attested to by Scripture.
 
p.s. Anytime you see someone post at beggarsall’s blog (or a number of contra-Catholic sites) with an opening line that includes the word “interesting,” it translates to “I think this is something I can use against Catholics.” :rolleyes:
 
Am I on the correct website?

The discussion centers on this premise: “Christ’s nature is exactly the same as ours” ?

Surely, these people know that Christ is fully human AND He is fully God.

In that we are not “fully God”, Christ’s nature is not exactly the same as ours.

I’m not as familiar as I should be with the various heresies that the Early Church dealt with. I’ll do some digging and find the name of the heresy that dealt with the belief that Jesus was only a man. Not Divine.
 
The blog poster needs to read about Arian Heresy (250 AD to 336 AD).

From New Advent - Arian Heresy

"Using Greek terms, it denies that the Son is of one essence, nature, or substance with God; He is not consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father, and therefore not like Him, or equal in dignity, or co-eternal, or within the real sphere of Deity.

The Logos which St. John exalts is an attribute, Reason, belonging to the Divine nature, not a person distinct from another, and therefore is a Son merely in figure of speech.

These consequences follow upon the principle which Arius maintains in his letter to Eusebius of Nicomedia, that the Son “is no part of the Ingenerate.”

Hence the Arian sectaries who reasoned logically were styled Anomoeans: they said that the Son was “unlike” the Father. And they defined God as simply the Unoriginate. They are also termed the Exucontians (ex ouk onton), because they held the creation of the Son to be out of nothing.

But a view so unlike tradition found little favour; it required softening or palliation, even at the cost of logic; and the school which supplanted Arianism from an early date affirmed the likeness, either without adjunct, or in all things, or in substance, of the Son to the Father, while denying His co-equal dignity and co-eternal existence.

These men of the Via Media were named Semi-Arians.

They approached, in strict argument, to the heretical extreme; but many of them held the orthodox faith, however inconsistently; their difficulties turned upon language or local prejudice, and no small number submitted at length to Catholic teaching.

The Semi-Arians attempted for years to invent a compromise between irreconcilable views, and their shifting creeds, tumultuous councils, and worldly devices tell us how mixed and motley a crowd was collected under their banner.

The point to be kept in remembrance is that, while they affirmed the Word of God to be everlasting, they imagined Him as having become the Son to create the worlds and redeem mankind.

Among the ante-Nicene writers, a certain ambiguity of expression may be detected, outside the school of Alexandria, touching this last head of doctrine.

While Catholic teachers held the Monarchia, viz. that there was only one God; and the Trinity, that this Absolute One existed in three distinct subsistences; and the Circumincession, that Father, Word, and Spirit could not be separated, in fact or in thought, from one another; yet an opening was left for discussion as regarded the term “Son,” and the period of His “generation” (gennesis).

Five ante-Nicene Fathers are especially quoted: Athenagoras, Tatian, Theophilus of Antioch, Hippolytus, and Novatian, whose language appears to involve a peculiar notion of Sonship, as though It did not come into being or were not perfect until the dawn of creation.

To these may be added Tertullian and Methodius.

Cardinal Newman held that their view, which is found clearly in Tertullian, of the Son existing after the Word, is connected as an antecedent with Arianism.

Petavius construed the same expressions in a reprehensible sense; but the Anglican Bishop Bull defended them as orthodox, not without difficulty.

Even if metaphorical, such language might give shelter to unfair disputants; but we are not answerable for the slips of teachers who failed to perceive all the consequences of doctrinal truths really held by them.

From these doubtful theorizings Rome and Alexandria kept aloof.

Origen himself, whose unadvised speculations were charged with the guilt of Arianism, and who employed terms like “the second God,” concerning the Logos, which were never adopted by the Church — this very Origen taught the eternal Sonship of the Word, and was not a Semi-Arian.

To him the Logos, the Son, and Jesus of Nazareth were one ever-subsisting Divine Person, begotten of the Father, and, in this way, “subordinate” to the source of His being. He comes forth from God as the creative Word, and so is a ministering Agent, or, from a different point of view, is the First-born of creation.

Dionysius of Alexandria (260) was even denounced at Rome for calling the Son a work or creature of God; but he explained himself to the pope on orthodox principles, and confessed the Homoousian Creed."
 
Am I on the correct website?

The discussion centers on this premise: “Christ’s nature is exactly the same as ours” ?
You are on the correct site. Jesus contained the fullness of humanity except for sin. No one is asserting He was not also divine. (Catechism)
 
Great thread and responses – I’m going to print it out to study. Thanks!
 
Marco Polo makes some good points. What particularly caught my attention was the comment about Christ appearing to the Apostles in the locked room after the Resurrection…
This seems to be something that the blogger is conveniently ignoring - Christ is Risen - The First Fruit of the Ressurection. So we’re not talking about his “natural” body, but His “Glorified” body. This is the “Glorified Christ” who has been given. “All authority in heaven and on earth…” (Mt 28:18). This surely includes authority over the “Laws of Physics” since right after declaring His authority, He did something else that is impossible for a human, He ascended into heaven…(Acts 1)

Peace
James
 
after the Resurrection…
The “rules” didn’t exactly seem to apply before the resurrection either. i.e. The Transfiguration, bringing dead back to life, making blind men see, lame men walk, etc.

Chuck
 
The “rules” didn’t exactly seem to apply before the resurrection either. i.e. The Transfiguration, bringing dead back to life, making blind men see, lame men walk, etc.

Chuck
True, but none of your examples, with the exception of the Transfiguration, involve his own body defying the “laws of physics”, so to speak, whereas post resurection (the Glorified Body) passed through locked doors and appeared and disappeared at will and “rose into the clounds”.
These things, to me speak the most strongly to the “new” abilities of the "Glorified Jesus to be bodily in multiple places (In the Eucharist).
I’m not discounting your examples, just clarifying why I think the blog entry IS discounting the very germaine fact that we are talking about the Post resurrection, Glorified Christ.

Which makes me think of something else that often comes up here…
How many have heard protestants claim (in opposition to the crucifix) that Catholics “keep Christ on the Cross”, and how they worship “The Risen Christ”. It seems that this blogger prefered to, “keep Christ off the cross”, that is only consider Him in a “pre-glorified” state rather than recognize teh very real change that occurred after the resurrection.

Peace
James
 
I guess I should have expanded on that post, I was primarily pointing out the transfiguration as a pre-resurrection example in order to address the related claim that Jesus could not have been really present in the Eucharist of the Last Supper.

Maybe walking on water would be another good example?

Just because He was fully human while here on earth does not mean that He was not also fully God.

He could do whatever He liked, He’s awesome like that…🙂

Chuck
True, but none of your examples, with the exception of the Transfiguration, involve his own body defying the “laws of physics”, so to speak, whereas post resurection (the Glorified Body) passed through locked doors and appeared and disappeared at will and “rose into the clounds”.
These things, to me speak the most strongly to the “new” abilities of the "Glorified Jesus to be bodily in multiple places (In the Eucharist).
I’m not discounting your examples, just clarifying why I think the blog entry IS discounting the very germaine fact that we are talking about the Post resurrection, Glorified Christ.

Which makes me think of something else that often comes up here…
How many have heard protestants claim (in opposition to the crucifix) that Catholics “keep Christ on the Cross”, and how they worship “The Risen Christ”. It seems that this blogger prefered to, “keep Christ off the cross”, that is only consider Him in a “pre-glorified” state rather than recognize teh very real change that occurred after the resurrection.

Peace
James
 
I guess I should have expanded on that post, I was primarily pointing out the transfiguration as a pre-resurrection example in order to address the related claim that Jesus could not have been really present in the Eucharist of the Last Supper.

Maybe walking on water would be another good example?

Just because He was fully human while here on earth does not mean that He was not also fully God.

He could do whatever He liked, He’s awesome like that…🙂

Chuck
👍👍👍

Peace
James
 
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