Mass Before 2nd Vatican Council

[newyorkcatholic]

i went to una voce and found a chapter near me but i looked up the adress and it wasnot a church and the website did not give the name of the church.

If you want to privately message me where you live I’ll try to find the nearest Latin Masses to you.

Or if you are comfortable, you could post the city / town here (but don’t post any more details online!)

 

[Leon_Bloy]

Hi

The priest has his back to the congregation.

And he has his face toward God (who is the object of our worship), in the same direction as all the people present, who he is praying *with *and representing, as he offers Christ to the Father in persona Christi.

 

[TheDoctor]

What was Mass like before the Second Vatican Council?

Exactly like Mass was like after the Second Vatican Council.

See, Vatican II, contrary to what some believe, did not change the Mass. So the Mass that you went to in September 1962 (a month before V2) was the same Mass you went to in January 1966 (a month after V2). Pope Paul VI did not promulgate a new form of the Mass until four years later (1969).

I know that it is a piddling point however when folks imply V2 changed the Mass they are just reading more into the council than is there. I will give you that V2 had some suggestions for improving the Mass however it was the Pope, not the council, that changed the Mass.

 

[svid2]

Beef, definitely.

I love an occaisional EF, but the OF allows me to be a lector.

 

[MarkThompson]

Exactly like Mass was like after the Second Vatican Council.

See, Vatican II, contrary to what some believe, did not change the Mass. So the Mass that you went to in September 1962 (a month before V2) was the same Mass you went to in January 1966 (a month after V2). Pope Paul VI did not promulgate a new form of the Mass until four years later (1969).

That is not accurate, because a number of changes to the Mass were made in the interim, most notable among them being probably those ordered in Inter Oecumenici (September 1964).

 

[Brooklyn]

Hi

If you visit the Brompton Oratory in London, all Masses are pre-Vatican II. The priest has his back to the congregation.

Maybe I’m just being picky, and I’m sure you meant no disrespect. But it bothers me when people say “the priest has his back to the congregation.” I think it gives the wrong impression to use this statement, It is much more accurate to say that the priest prays facing the same direction as the congregation. The congregation is praying with the priest. You could say that everyone in the congregation who is sitting in front of others has his back to the rest. But it is just a matter of praying with each other. After all, our focus should be on the Lord, not on one another or even on the priest.

For 1500 years when there was only what we call the Traditional Mass, no one ever spoke of the priest as having his back to the congregation.

 

[Brooklyn]

Exactly like Mass was like after the Second Vatican Council.

See, Vatican II, contrary to what some believe, did not change the Mass. So the Mass that you went to in September 1962 (a month before V2) was the same Mass you went to in January 1966 (a month after V2). Pope Paul VI did not promulgate a new form of the Mass until four years later (1969).

I know that it is a piddling point however when folks imply V2 changed the Mass they are just reading more into the council than is there. I will give you that V2 had some suggestions for improving the Mass however it was the Pope, not the council, that changed the Mass.

Actually this is an excellent point. The Traditional Latin Mass was not changed, and our Holy Father made that abundantly clear when he said there is the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form. They are two different rites. And you are again absolutely right when you say that it was not Vatican II that instituted a new Mass but Pope Paul VI. Vactican II made suggestions, but the Fathers from VII never envisioned the OF that we have today. Pope Paul VI did not change the Mass in 1969 but introduced an entirely new rite. That is why we now have two completely separate forms.

 

[Brooklyn]

That is not accurate, because a number of changes to the Mass were made in the interim, most notable among them being probably those ordered in Inter Oecumenici (September 1964).

The interim Mass between Vatican II and 1969 that you describe is no longer valid. There are now only two forms: the OF and EF.

 

[mary_bobo]

What was the Mass like before V2? It was reverent, quiet, no gum chewing at Mass, no tattered clothes and blue jeans, no shorts, no talking. I could go on and on, but you get the picture. I was away from the church for many years, but when I would come home to visit my mother, I would go to Mass with her and each time I thought I was in a protestant church.

 

[ProVobis]

What was the Mass like before V2? It was reverent, quiet, no gum chewing at Mass, no tattered clothes and blue jeans, no shorts, no talking. I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

Indeed but secular life was different as well. Men wore hats and suits to baseball games. Microphones were scarce. Libraries had “QUIET” signs all over the place. And the nuns used stricter discipline in the schools.

I still maintain that many of the EFs celebrated today aren’t celebrated the same way they were in pre-1962, though the text of the Mass is basically the same. You may have noticed that even an FSSP priest will bow instead of genuflect at certain points of the Mass. My pastor doesn’t say the “Ite Missa est” much either, since “Benedicamus Domino” is an allowed option in the 1962 Mass and it makes more sense. There is no required 3-hr fast anymore, leaving many more to go to communion. There are other differences as well.

 

[ProVobis]

And you are again absolutely right when you say that it was not Vatican II that instituted a new Mass but Pope Paul VI. Vactican II made suggestions, but the Fathers from VII never envisioned the OF that we have today. Pope Paul VI did not change the Mass in 1969 but introduced an entirely new rite. That is why we now have two completely separate forms.

I wonder if we can say that the 1969 Mass is the finalized version of the reforms done under both Pius XII and Paul VI, since they both employed Bugnini as the chief architect. (Bugnini had been hired in 1948 and instituted major changes in Holy Week in 1955.)

 

[ZoeyBdo]

What was the Mass like before V2? It was reverent, quiet, no gum chewing at Mass, no tattered clothes and blue jeans, no shorts, no talking. I could go on and on, but you get the picture. I was away from the church for many years, but when I would come home to visit my mother, I would go to Mass with her and each time** I thought I was in a protestant church**.

I’m glad you mentioned this because I have a question that hopefully you could answer (or anyone) for me.

I’m in my early 30’s, so Mass as it is now is the only thing I’ve experienced. Watching the EF on Youtube makes my heart sing, though. I think I might have to seek one out.

Anyone, to the question.

My husband and I just recently visited the church that he grew up in, a Lutheran Church, and I remarked at how similar the service was to a Catholic Mass.
He said it wasn’t the Lutheran church copying the Catholics, it was in fact the Catholics who changed (Mass) to be more Lutheran (protestant in general, he’s Lutheran so he just states Lutheran).

Which, after reading everyone’s comments and seeing these videos… begs the question… is this the case, and if so, why?

 

[Brooklyn]

I wonder if we can say that the 1969 Mass is the finalized version of the reforms done under both Pius XII and Paul VI, since they both employed Bugnini as the chief architect. (Bugnini had been hired in 1948 and instituted major changes in Holy Week in 1955.)

It’s hard to imagine Pius XII agreeing to the Canon, or any other part of the Mass, in the vernacular, the priest facing the people, deleting the prayers at the foot of the altar and the offertory prayers. A lot of the new Mass created by Paul VI had been talked about for many years prior, but I don’t think that Pius XII was a part of those discussions. He did make a few minor changes to the existing Mass, but Paul VI created an entire new Mass, which was known for many years as the Novus Ordo (new order).

 

[Melchior_1]

It’s hard to imagine Pius XII agreeing to the Canon, or any other part of the Mass, in the vernacular, the priest facing the people, deleting the prayers at the foot of the altar and the offertory prayers.

Well, except for Pius XII also had a hand in changes to the Breviary, and launched a commission for general revisions.

 

[Brooklyn]

Well, except for Pius XII also had a hand in changes to the Breviary, and launched a commission for general revisions.

True enough, but changes and revisions are quite different from scrapping the old and instituting something entirely new. There have been changes and revisions down through the centuries. An entire new Mass is something else. I guess we can’t know for sure, but from what I have read, which admittedly isn’t that much, I don’t think Pius XII would have agreed to an entirely new Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s hard to imagine Pius XII agreeing to the Canon, or any other part of the Mass, in the vernacular, the priest facing the people, deleting the prayers at the foot of the altar and the offertory prayers. A lot of the new Mass created by Paul VI had been talked about for many years prior, but I don’t think that Pius XII was a part of those discussions. He did make a few minor changes to the existing Mass, but Paul VI created an entire new Mass, which was known for many years as the Novus Ordo (new order).

I agree with you that it would be hard to imagine Pius XII agreeing to the points you mentioned, although it wouldn’t be too hard to imagine that those were already on Bugnini’s drawing board even in the early 50’s.

Interestingly enough, John XXIII fired Bugnini since it was reported that he didn’t want any (more) simplifications to the Mass. Paul VI later rehired him and the rest is history but it would have been interesting to have seen how the Mass changes, if any, would have played out under John XXIII.

 

[TheDoctor]

That is not accurate, because a number of changes to the Mass were made in the interim, most notable among them being probably those ordered in Inter Oecumenici (September 1964).

Mark - I think we are both agreeing though on the salient point, i.e. that it was the Pope, under his authority as the Pope, that “changed” the Mass by implementing what V2 suggested (or trying to implement what V2 really suggested, but that is a separate thread). As Iner Oecumenici says:
2. The Consilium, which Pope Paul VI established by the Motu Proprio Sacram Liturgiam, has promptly taken up its two appointed tasks: to carry out the directives of the Constitution and of Sacram Liturgiam and to provide the means for interpreting these documents and putting them into practice.
P.S. - thanks for the link to Iner Oecumenici. It is always helpful to us in 2012 to read what was being done in 1965 vs. what we “hear” on the internet.