Mass before St. Pius V

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I know that Pope St. Pius V created a uniform Mass which became mandatory throughout the Latin Church (except for the pre 1370 rites i.e. carthusian, carmelelite, etc). What was the Mass like before the Council of Trent? Did it vary, or was there already a basic uniform Mass used?
 
With the exception of the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, and Bragan rites, the Latin Church had pretty much adopted the Roman rite–but there were a lot of local variations, especially in propers, but sometimes in the ceremonial and even priest’s private prayers in the Ordinary.

For example, in the Sarum Use, used throughout most of England, the celebrant would pray, “Hail forevermore, precious Body/Blood of Christ…” before receiving the Species.
 
The only significant revision to the Latin rite Mass in the missal of 1570 was the addition of the prologue of St. John’s gospel–the so-called last gospel.
 
I found this:
The liturgical problem was that many local variations on the Mass had been created in the confusion that followed the Reformation, not all of them of high quality or in line with the central doctrine.
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bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/ritesrituals/tridentinemass_2.shtml

The codification of it does not mean that it did not exist before or that the variations were of any great difference. I was always under the impression that it was codified at teh Council to stop some of the variations that were branching off and to prevent any new innovation.
 
pnewton said:
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I was always under the impression that it was codified at teh Council to stop some of the variations that were branching off and to prevent any new innovation.
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Ditto. Well said.
 
Deum_quaerens said:
The greatest part of the Mass as it was celebrated throughout Europe had barely changed, if at all, since Pope St Gregory the Great († 604).

See Fr Adrian Fortescue’s article “Liturgy of the Mass” in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Of great interest is the Eight pre-Tridentine variants of the Roman Mass side by side with the Tridentine Mass for comparison. Wikipedia refers to extensive resources.
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Just a note of caution, there has been an incredible amount of liturgical scholarship (as with Biblical) during the 20th century that has brought so much new information about the Catholic tradition to light that previous centuries were not familiar with. Any source from the first decade or so of the 20th century {like the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia) would not benefit from the wealth of information the Church has nowadays.
 
diggerdomer said:
Just a note of caution, there has been an incredible amount of liturgical scholarship (as with Biblical) during the 20th century that has brought so much new information about the Catholic tradition to light that previous centuries were not familiar with. Any source from the first decade or so of the 20th century {like the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia) would not benefit from the wealth of information the Church has nowadays.
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Quite so.

There was a great deal of natural variability from locality to locality. Some authors from the late 19th century and early 20th were of a more idealistic bent and either did not see this clearly at the time or were careful not to emphasize that fact.

In discussing the development or consistency of the Latin Mass it is best to stick to discussing the practice at the city of Rome and it’s close environs (like the suburbicarian), and not assume that the practice was nearly identical throughout Europe.
 
pnewton said:
The codification of it does not mean that it did not exist before or that the variations were of any great difference. I was always under the impression that it was codified at teh Council to stop some of the variations that were branching off and to prevent any new innovation.
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I think it is possible the variation accelerated after the beginning of the Reformation, because of the breakdown of the older lines of authority.

It is possible that there were also priests which had, for a time, served with the Protestants and then returned to Catholic obedience. That is something that would be interesting research. This would particularly have been a problem in areas that changed sides due to war. Priests developing their vocations in that time period may have not had the very best training, or served without direct contact with a bishop for long periods. I am thinking mostly of the German lands, although this might apply to parts of France or other areas of Europe.

I think it was the Trent Council that finally established the norms for seminary training. The newer young priests, products of the new seminaries, would have been the ones to bring conformity to church requirements. Until the older priests should die off or give up their positions (as in retirement) the reforms of Trent would be unevenly implemented.
 
Hesychios said:
I think it is possible the variation accelerated after the beginning of the Reformation, because of the breakdown of the older lines of authority.
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That was my understanding too. Thank you for the embelishment.
 
Hesychios said:
Quite so.

There was a great deal of natural variability from locality to locality. Some authors from the late 19th century and early 20th were of a more idealistic bent and either did not see this clearly at the time or were careful not to emphasize that fact.

In discussing the development or consistency of the Latin Mass it is best to stick to discussing the practice at the city of Rome and it’s close environs (like the suburbicarian), and not assume that the practice was nearly identical throughout Europe.
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I’ve no problem with what you say, but the comment to which you responded is, IMHO, somewhat lacking. The idea presented earlier was that neo-Catholic liturgical scholarship is more accurate to, and encompassing of, authentic tradition than what preceded it, and that contention is rather suspect. The very thought that the liturgical conglomerate of Villot, Bugnini & Co. were simply being faithful to Western tradition is almost laughable.
 
malphono said:
I’ve no problem with what you say, but the comment to which you responded is, IMHO, somewhat lacking. The idea presented earlier was that neo-Catholic liturgical scholarship is more accurate to, and encompassing of, authentic tradition than what preceded it, and that contention is rather suspect. The very thought that the liturgical conglomerate of Villot, Bugnini & Co. were simply being faithful to Western tradition is almost laughable.
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I disagree. Accounts of how the Mass was conducted before Trent is primarily a historical, not a theological matter, and the discipline of history has greatly improved in the 20th Century. Considering that our picture of life in the time before Trent is much clearer than it was in 1900, I would expect that our picture of how the Mass was conducted is also much clearer.
 
I would agree with the above post but be wary of the masonic agents in the church who may try to tweak and skew the facts.

There were many different “rites” throughout western europe before trent, and if the Pope grants the TAC their full communion status we may be able to attend(some of us catholics anyway) the Sarum Rite(Use) in all its glory on a regular basis. i hear they already started using it in england on an extremely rare basis I mean like once or twiced in a few years there are videos on youtube…i can upload the link to the first one.**
 
pnewton said:
I am more wary of those who see masonic conspiracies.
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I was being slightly sarcastic, however we should remember that the idea was seen as a real threat by several popes in the early 20th and all through the 19th century
 
Brian777 said:
I was being slightly sarcastic, however we should remember that the idea was seen as a real threat by several popes in the early 20th and all through the 19th century
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My apology. I often miss subtleties.
 
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