Mass being said in Latin

[Anesti33]

Not that I don’t believe your limited anecdote, but I found the Extraordinary Form-goers to be welcoming, accommodating, kind and generous. The narthex was full of hand-missals, women’s veils, and pamphlets, and I was even offered a ride home as a complete stranger. When I phone the parish office, the pastor answers the phone and fields my request personally. Some of the parishioners at my parish have attended Mass in the Extraordinary Form, and they are the smartest people with the largest, most vibrant families. It bears good fruit around here.

 

[felsguy]

That’s a shame, but as they say “leaving church because of all the hypocrites be like leaving the gym because of all the fat people.”

Hadn’t heard that before but love it and am sure to use it in the future.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Once you.associate something it is linked. So you are covering yourself when you clearly are doing the opposite of what you would have us believe.

The Latin Mass is associated with the Church’s greatest expansion in history

 

[Maximian]

some were actually quite hurtful to my oldest daughter who suffered from Aspergers and was apparently wiggling in her seat too much.

That does surprise me as mostly Latin Masses are filled with young families with dozens of children who all wriggle sometimes. A lot of mothers carry their children out if the child is too noisy but it’s their choice, none complains as it’s likely to be the same for them any day.

Im sorry you had a bad experience and can only suppose you were unlucky.

 

[Peeps]

Well you know, it is not all about ‘comprehensibility’. I mean, for hundreds and hundreds of years you had men and women and even little children who didn’t ‘speak Latin’ and who found incredible strength and beauty in the Mass —which itself is, like the Bible, multi-layered and meaningful.

For hundreds of years, the majority of people did not know how to read or write, and had no hope of learning these skills.

Most people never travelled or left the town or city, or the street/neighborhood where they born.

Most people died very young; in fact, most never made it out of childhood.

Most people worked at whatever situation they were born in (farm, laborer, servant, etc.) without any possibility of switching to another job.

And most people never associated with anyone other than the folks that they lived near and with–there was no “mixing” of the classes, no contact with people much better off or much worse off, other than seeing them from a distance during a religious or state festival.

The Mass was the high point of their week–compared to their daily lives, it was beautiful, sublime, and reassuring. In the Mass and in their local parish church building, they saw “heaven” compared to their home/work circumstances, so it’s no wonder they loved the Church and the Mass.

This is totally different than modern times, when people (at least in the U.S. and Europe) are able to choose what kind of life they would like to have, work towards bettering their circumstances, meet and talk with people from all walks of life, see and interact with people very different than themselves on media, and live past childhood in most cases.

AND—think about this–apparently many people, especially in Germany, but all over Europe, were dissatisifed enough with the Mass to not only REJECT THE MASS, but also to REJECT CATHOLICISM TOTALLY and attend the Reformation “churches” (Lutheran, Reformed, etc).

It appears that there were quite a number of people who had never really understood that the Catholic Church is THE Church of Jesus Christ, and when Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli (and others) started talking up their heretical ideas and writing (at least Luther did) beautiful singable hymns, people joyfully went along with it.

I would venture to say that perhaps had the Mass been in their own language all those centuries, they wouldn’t have been fooled by these upstart preachers and their jolly hymns! But they had no catechesis to understand the difference, and when the chance to hear preaching, teaching, and music in their own language came along, they jumped at it.

So your comment about men, women, and little children finding incredible strength and beauty in the Mass is questionable, since so many departed when they discovered Protestant religions in their own languages.

In case you don’t know, Peeps is a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism, and my grandparents and great-grandparents came from the Reformed tradition in Germany. I consider Luther, Calvin (especially Calvin) and the other reformers as heretics.

 

[stpurl]

Peeps, I agree with you on so many things, but this I just can’t agree on. (For the record, my grandmother was a convert to Catholicism from Lutheranism, grew up right outside Denmark, and my father was Episcopalian).

The reason that people found strength in the Mass has nothing to do with how many stayed, or left, with ‘the vernacular. It really doesn’t. It has everything to do with the Mass itself. Those who ‘left’ did not leave because “I don’t understand Mass’. They left because they mistakenly believed in people who decided to go against the teachings of the Church —the teachings that are the same whether they are in Latin, English, German, or Swahili. Once you decided to disagree on the fundamental authority of the Church you’re going to try to find ways to justify yourself.

And do remember that for over 400 years after Luther, millions of Catholics ‘stayed’ despite there being ‘vernacular’ opportunities up the Wazoo.

The whole ‘change the Mass’ was a complex issue that was in essence hijacked by a certain contingent bent on the revolutionary principles which had spiked in the 1960s and continue to perk today. It’s a spirit of rebellion. Not a ‘turn’ from blind obedience, but a spirit of rebellion that looks to fracture Christian unity.

 

[Peeps]

Do you think that the average peasant or serf even knew, or at least UNDERSTOOD the teachings of the Church?

Even today, many children are taught a “Catechism”–a series of memorized statements of faith that they learn to make it through “Confirmation classes” --this is the case in both Protestant (mainline) and Catholic churches.

And today, we see many MANY MANY!!! people utterly depart from their childhood church despite their “catechesis.”

Try looking through the Confirmation records of some of the large Lutheran churches where you live. In my city, a century ago, many of these churches confirmed hundreds of young people every year, but today, are thrilled if they even have a half-dozen confirmands.

And although Catholic confirmation classes are quite large, a year later, many of those young people have not been to Mass more than a few times all year, and by the time they are of age, they have stopped attending church totally and have failed to assimiliate into their local parish.

THESE wayward confirmands from Mainline Protestant and Catholic tradition are prime targets for the non-denominational “Praise and Worship” churches that are booming at this time in history. The same thing is happening today that happened in during the Reformation (with the difference that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded, and the Reformation was a rejection of this truth). Today, many people who were already in Reformation churches are rejecting those Protestant traditions, and along with many Catholics who have left their Church, are singing CCM and PW and listening to a “speaker” in jeans and a t-shirt “share” with them the most elementary Christian teachings about “abundant life.”

There is no attempt to teach Church history, because Christianity begins and ends iwth “me,” and the past doesn’t matter. There is no concept of a continuous line of saints over the past 2000 years. There is no concept of creeds and church councils–these are seen as “acts of men.”

Make no mistake, (name removed by moderator)–what brought me and my husband into the Catholic Church was NOT the Mass–compared to even a small Protestant church gathering, the Mass is not an attention-getter (other than recognizing Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament–now THAT got my attention!)

What brought us into the Catholic Church was UNDERSTANDING–the facts, the history, the origin, and the Bible, and assimilating all these things and recognizing that they are TRUTH.

 

[stpurl]

Actually, I think the average serf or peasant— or how about the Galilean fishermen, the Roman soldiers, the Germanic barbarians, the Viking warriors, the South American native peoples, the Japanese and other Asian peoples—actually understood a lot more than people give them credit for today. It has become one of those ‘everybody knows’ stories about how before “Event X” happened (whether the Event is “The Reformation” or “The Industrial Ages” or “the Enlightenment” or “Vatican II” or “the 21st century” etc) everybody was ignorant about religion and God, either being “too religious’ and therefore ignorant, or ‘the wrong religious’ and therefore damned, or whatever, and then along came X and after that big huge change everybody Really gets it now and sneers at how stupid, clueless, etc everybody was ‘long ago’.

For example, we have ‘indoor plumbing’ now in our ‘Industrial Age world’. People forget that such things existed in Ancient Rome 2000 years ago, and even further, that they existed in the Minoan Crete at Knossos 4000 years ago. IOW, people living at a certain time often had civilisations which had very high standards for all their inhabitants, which basically means that the innate intelligence of a people is pretty much the same no matter when or where they lived.

We sneer at the serf who ‘wasn’t even literate’ in a world where Twitterspeak has made most people unable to spell correctly or communicate above ‘grunts and memes’, where in the US the average number of books read in a year is ‘two’. However that ‘illiterate peasant’ often could speak and understand several languages and/or dialects whereas today in the US we are lucky if we can master a 9th grade standard (ever slipping) of “English. That peasant could go out, male or female, and could raise enough crops to subside on, cook, spin, weave, knit, bake, know rudimentary ‘healing medicines’ with herbs and salves, and where to get them, and how to prepare them; could hunt with bow and arrow, prepare fires, knew to rotate crops, could care for children, and in addition to all that could learn various things that most people today couldn’t imagine. Check out what a master knitter, for example, would have to be able to do. . .after a 7 year apprenticeship no less. . . Or the kind of incredible sewing skills, or preparing leather. . .or learning to tally, or becoming a chef, or a miller, or entering the fields of law, or becoming a clerk. The majority of cities and villages were quite self-sufficient with people who did a variety of tasks that would exhaust us physically AND mentally, and did it well.

 

[babochka]

AND—think about this–apparently many people, especially in Germany, but all over Europe, were dissatisifed enough with the Mass to not only REJECT THE MASS, but also to REJECT CATHOLICISM TOTALLY and attend the Reformation “churches” (Lutheran, Reformed, etc).

It appears that there were quite a number of people who had never really understood that the Catholic Church is THE Church of Jesus Christ, and when Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli (and others) started talking up their heretical ideas and writing (at least Luther did) beautiful singable hymns, people joyfully went along with it.

I have found that my German ancestors simply swung from Evengelical (what we now call Lutheran) to Catholicism and back again based on geography and the religion of the local nobility. I doubt they thought too much of it at all. I don’t think the Protestant Reformation was a movement driven by the peasants. It was driven by intellectuals and it became politically expedient for those in power to choose one and reject the other. Exceptions abound, of course and we know many of them as saints. But the peasants just seem to have been dragged along. In my bloodline, anyway.

 

[BornInMarch]

I don’t object to Latin Mass, but when people act as though it’s quasi-heretical to give the mass in anything but Latin seems misinformed at best.

I’m glad you said this, because a lot of “Traditional” Catholics seem to forget what the most important in the religion.

At the end of the day, no matter how beautiful pre-modern architecture is or how historically significant the latin language is to the church, those things are nowhere near as important as the Eucharist. Whether we receive the body of Christ in an ornate cathedral, a modern drywall eyesore, or a ditch, it’s still a blessing no human can earn and which only God’s generosity makes us worthy of receiving.

 

[AnaCarolina7]

Yes but in all honesty the more formal the mass, the more formal the participants.

I believe in God. I believe you should be reverent in dressing praying and the sacraments.

The more relaxed masses I attended looked at me likei had 2 heads for having a veil and praying rosary.

Maybe its the area.

 

[Peeps]

The more relaxed masses I attended looked at me likei had 2 heads for having a veil and praying rosary.

Maybe its the area.

I think you’re right, it’s the area.

Our parish is very contemporary-looking, and our OF Masses feature the Haugen/Haas type hymns, along with the more traditional hymns. Latin (the responses) has been tried and found trying, so it’s gone now. It will be back around the same time next year, and will probably last a few months before being quietly ushered out.

BUT…there are a number of women who dress up, including heels, and wear veils–big veils, not the tiny circular pieces of lace.

No one looks at them as though they had 2 heads. In fact, they are very friendly and outgoing, and they are greeted as friends by many of the women in the parish, including me!

As for praying Rosary before or after Mass–many people in our parish do this, including my husband–no one looks down on them.

Is it possible that these “gawkers” are Protestants (Evangelicals or non-Denoms) who are visiting the parish, perhaps with friends or relatives, or perhaps because they have read some of Chuck Colson’s or John Ortberg’s books and are curious about Catholicism–and seeing women in veils is a surprise to them?

And are you aware that there are several Protestant denominations (they would probably prefer to be called “Independent” rather than Protestant) in which the women wear veils?

In the Christian and Missionary Alliance Church that our family attended for ten years, there were women who wore veils because they were retired missionaries, and in their mission churches, especially in Africa, the women wear veils because that is the way their pastors interpret the New Testament. American-born missionaries got used to it over in Africa and keep it up in the U.S.

Hope these thoughts are helpful.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I just found this via FB:

First Reactions of Teenage Boys to the Traditional Latin Mass - Crisis Magazine

The boys’ comments are very perceptive imo.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Personally I have no problem with it. But claims like it’s the ancient Mass or the best Mass, or simply making the Ordinary Form second class don’t endear me to the Mass. Its proponents are like Cowboys fans.

 

[stpurl]

Well if you look at both the EF and the OF dispassionately, the EF is more like a deep spring fed lake, and the OF is more like a very large pastoral pond.

Both are water. Both have the same kind of general layout on the surface though they differ ‘in the depths’. Both have an appeal and use.

Some people find deep lakes scary; others find them stimulating. Some people find quiet pastoral ponds limited, others find them ‘perfect’.

But both are bodies of water.

Maybe that would help in that I think we can find say the depth of the lake versus the more shallow pond simply reflects the nature of ‘lake’ versus ‘pond’, and that it is perfectly fine to like either or both, but to PREFER the one which happens to suit us.

I like lakes better but I’m perfectly happy to visit and enjoy ponds!

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Well if you look at both the EF and the OF dispassionately, the EF is more like a deep spring fed lake, and the OF is more like a very large pastoral pond.

Except we aren’t dealing with lakes.

We are dealing with the Eucharist. Personal preference ain’t a factor when it comes to the efficacy of the Eucharist.

 

[stpurl]

Nobody said that it was about the efficacy of the Eucharist, though.

As far as personal preference, I think we are all entitled to it.

I mean, some people like Coke and some like Pepsi, but they are both cola drinks, aren’t they?

However, telling a Coke drinker, “Coke and Pepsi are both just cola drinks so don’t try to tell me how much better Coke is than Pepsi just because you prefer it’ is really kind of a nasty put down. Sure the Coke drinker would prefer it if ‘others’ liked Coke and he’s just letting people know.

Same of course true for Pepsi drinkers.

But as much as they are ‘just cola drinks’ people have legitimate preferences one way or the other. Usually it doesn’t bother a person who doesn’t really care (or who prefers ginger ale) to hear a Coke person proclaiming the superiority of his drink, or a Pepsi person.

Similarly it bothers few people to hear comparisons of Burger King and McDonald’s, Pizza Hut or Dominos.

One likes what one likes.

That being said, if one starts to hear a Pepsi person begin to respond to the Coke drinker not about ‘Pepsi just tastes better” but rather, “Coke is swill and so are its drinkers” then it isn’t really the problem with the Coke drinker who is proclaiming the merits of Coke (his legitimate preference), the problem is the PEPSI drinker who is going beyond stating his preference and being nasty about Pepsi.

So yes, I understand that an OF person would get upset if an EF person said that the OF was ‘swill’. I’d get upset if somebody said that about my preference.

But there is a fine line between, “My EF is the best possible Mass as it has a longer pedigree, a more bountiful use of the five senses, and an unchanging sacred language’ (note that all of these are simple preferences here), and the OF is much younger, simpler, and can be prone to abuse due to a very changeable and ‘option filled’ liturgy (again, none of these are nasty remarks, and in fact the more contemporary liturgy, the simple and ‘clear’ service and the options themselves are often spoken of in a positive way as preferences). … .

And claiming that those who would speak the above way are ‘nasty’ about the OF. Because they aren’t.

We have too many ‘anecdotes’ and too little of what actually might have been said. People do not tend to report what somebody said to them but rather what they THINK they said; that’s why they paraphrase or put things ‘in other words’.

So I honestly think there is far less ‘disrespect’ from EF people to OF (and vice versa) than is claimed. I think people get very attached to their preferences (and again, we do have TWO VALID RITES so we are ENTITLED to our preferences) and tend to think that unless somebody feels the very same way, “They are nasty and disrespectful.”

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Similarly it bothers few people to hear comparisons of Burger King and McDonald’s, Pizza Hut or Dominos.

Except, as I said, we aren’t talking about restaurants.

Not only is there personal preference, people take their personal preference and seek to make it the norm, or simply tell half truths about said personal preference. Which is how heresies like Sola Scriptura came to be.

There are no anecdotes. Even here on this site there are vestiges of that.

And when you really look at it dispassionately, they are just two different forms of the Mass. No need to speak of lakes vs ponds, or McDonalds vs Burger King.

 

[stpurl]

But we are allowed personal preferences. And frankly, we have the power (sheesh I sound like He Man and I’m a girl) to just ‘rise about’ any perceived offense and just let it go (OK now I’m Elsa).

Which is what I’m about to do. I like what I like. Others can like what they like. If their preferences aren’t mine, that’s just the way it is (now I’m Walter Cronkite). God will sort it out!

 

[Julius_Caesar]

God will sort it out!

Not you or me.

And the Latin Mass is an innovation in of itself.