Mass delusion or genuine miracle?

[Candide_West]

So all miracles e.g. Fatima, should be referred to as a deception, simply because they are not explainable?

Hello again Joe,

I thought we’d covered this already? Not all miracles are necessarily deceptions, no.*

For example if God healed someone then that wouldn’t be a deception. However, if he made it look like he’d healed someone but hadn’t healed them, then that would be deception.*

 

[Candide_West]

The sun was behaving normally and then God performed a miracle. But let’s say, for the sake of argument that the sun was behaving normally and God deceived people into believing that it was dancing: how did God do that?

No idea, I’m not in a position to speculate on Gods methodology.*

Is there some sort of natural explanation…?

Not if it was a miracle, no.*

Do you find, what I call a miracle, and you call a deception,*

Again, to be clear it’s only a deception IF it was a miracle.*

to be rather impressive and convincing, in terms of a God doing something mere humans could not?*

Sure, if it really happened then it’s very impressive.*

Or, do you see no evidence of God regarding the miracle or deception?

Alas there isn’t really enough evidence to conclude what happened that day in Fatima. What we can say with confidence is that IF the “Miracle of the Sun” was a genuine miracle then it creates significant theological problems for Christianity.*

 

[pig]

Steve didn’t say he was going to make the sun spin so I guess it wasn’t deception.

 

[joe370]

Candide West

Alas there isn’t really enough evidence to conclude what happened that day in Fatima. What we can say with confidence is that IF the “Miracle of the Sun” was a genuine miracle then it creates significant theological problems for Christianity.*]

Hmm…I think you mean: theological problems for you. However, you are not a Christian or a believer in Jesus, so I am not sure why you would even care about this stuff. Perhaps (and I mean no disrespect) it is merely a hobby of yours…Surely you are not claiming to speak for Christians like myself? Fatima was one of the reasons why I became a Christian.

If you had been there and witnessed the Fatima event yourself, I believe you would have walked away feeling deceived; no doubt about that. What does not make any sense to me is why you would feel that way, even after reading all of your posts. I suppose one man’s meat is another man’s poison…

 

[joe370]

Hello again Joe,

I thought we’d covered this already? Not all miracles are necessarily deceptions, no.*

For example if God healed someone then that wouldn’t be a deception. However, if he made it look like he’d healed someone but hadn’t healed them, then that would be deception.*

Could you give me an example of a miracle performed by God that was not a deception?

 

[Candide_West]

Hmm…I think you mean: theological problems for you.*

No, not at all. Sorry I should have been more specific. It creates significant theological problems for any group that claims that the deity is morally perfect and deception is immoral (both of which Christianity does). It also creates significant problems for anyone who uses the explanation that the reason for a lack of scientific evidence of the deity is that he/she/it does not submit to tests organised by humans. This is a defense I have seen utilised extensively by Christians.

However, you are not a Christian or a believer in Jesus, so I am not sure why you would even care about this stuff. Perhaps (and I mean no disrespect) it is merely a hobby of yours…Surely you are not claiming to speak for Christians like myself? Fatima was one of the reasons why I became a Christian.*

I’m not claiming to speak for anyone. I’ve made an observation that shows that Fatima (if it was a genuine miracle) is theologically problematic for Christian (amongst others).*

If you had been there and witnessed the Fatima event yourself, I believe you would have walked away feeling deceived; no doubt about that. What does not make any sense to me is why you would feel that way, even after reading all of your posts. I suppose one man’s meat is another man’s poison…

Because if someone deliberately leads you to believe something is happening when it is not, then he has deceived you. Of course I probably wouldn’t be upset about having been thus deceived since (if the stories are true) it would have been an impressive event to witness. But still I would be forced to admit I had been deceived.*

 

[Candide_West]

Could you give me an example of a miracle performed by God that was not a deception?

I thought I just did. Any miracle where what appears to have happened is what ACTUALLY happened would not be a deception.*

Of course I don’t know of any miracles which have met a reasonable standard of evidence such that we can be confident that a miracle actually occurred. But Fatima is the only alleged miracle I know of involving deception.

 

[pig]

I thought I just did. Any miracle where what appears to have happened is what ACTUALLY happened would not be a deception.*

Of course I don’t know of any miracles which have met a reasonable standard of evidence such that we can be confident that a miracle actually occurred. But Fatima is the only alleged miracle I know of involving deception.

it is good to be cautious but what deity is deceiving them? is there any way we can tell?

 

[Candide_West]

it is good to be cautious but what deity is deceiving them? is there any way we can tell?

Without adequate evidence that a miracle occurred at all its not really sensible to look for evidence of which deity performed it.

 

[pig]

Without adequate evidence that a miracle occurred at all its not really sensible to look for evidence of which deity performed it.

in that case theres nothing for us to worry about, it was just mass delusion.
has mass delusion happened in any other context, just as a matter of interest?

 

[Candide_West]

in that case theres nothing for us to worry about, it was just mass delusion.

As I said personally I don’t think there’s enough evidence to say what happened.*

has mass delusion happened in any other context, just as a matter of interest?

Sorry, I’ve no idea, it’s not something I’ve researched.*

 

[pig]

As I said personally I don’t think there’s enough evidence to say what happened.*

…

thats that then. we can say nothing about it at all.

 

[Candide_West]

thats that then. we can say nothing about it at all.

Ok. Just to be clear I never claimed to be able to determine what actually happened. I was just exploring the implications if we assume one of the possibilities (that there was a genuine miracle).

 

[pig]

Ok. Just to be clear I never claimed to be able to determine what actually happened. I was just exploring the implications if we assume one of the possibilities (that there was a genuine miracle).

the implications in that case would confirm a deity either directly as a miracle or indirectly as a work of sabotage by a malignant entity with some of the powers of a deity.

since its unlikely a malignant entity would create the world and universe and then manifest itself to 70,000 peasants nearly a hundred years ago and then vanish. All for no apparent reason.

if I consider its reality to be fact then I must consider a malignant entity with power to shape the sun in peoples minds. A super-natural feat.
Another super-natural entity must or possibly could have created everything else that this malignant entity has so apparently no interest or use for. things like beauty, truth, etc. which people recognize. Which you recognize, as you are asking yourself is this true.

 

[joe370]

Candide West;10104791]No, not at all. Sorry I should have been more specific. It creates significant theological problems for any group that claims that the deity is morally perfect and deception is immoral (both of which Christianity does).

God is morally perfect; God is not deceptive. Deception is immoral. To each their own of course…

It also creates significant problems for anyone who uses the explanation that the reason for a lack of scientific evidence of the deity is that he/she/it does not submit to tests organised by humans. This is a defense I have seen utilised extensively by Christians.

Christianity is a faith-based system. Believe in Jesus or reject Jesus; it’s up to each individual…Science has nothing to do with Christianity…

I’m not claiming to speak for anyone. I’ve made an observation that shows that Fatima (if it was a genuine miracle) is theologically problematic for Christian (amongst others).*

You see a theological problem; I see an amazing life-changing miracle…

Because if someone deliberately leads you to believe something is happening when it is not, then he has deceived you.

Nah…Fatima was an amazing miracle performed by the creator, that drew people closer to the creator.

Of course I probably wouldn’t be upset about having been thus deceived since (if the stories are true) it would have been an impressive event to witness. But still I would be forced to admit I had been deceived.*

Based on what you have said in the past: sounds about right.

 

[joe370]

I thought I just did. Any miracle where what appears to have happened is what ACTUALLY happened would not be a deception.*

Of course I don’t know of any miracles which have met a reasonable standard of evidence such that we can be confident that a miracle actually occurred. But Fatima is the only alleged miracle I know of involving deception.

Like a person walking on water? Of course that too would seem to be deceptive since we all know that this would defy our natural laws. All miracles, (if witnessed) defy all logic and explanation, and therefore should be construed as a deception - correct?

 

[joe370]

=Candide West;10101389]No idea, I’m not in a position to speculate on Gods methodology.*

Do you actually believe in a creator aka God? Just curious…Or do you believe that the material universe (time and space) is the product of nothing?

Not if it was a miracle, no.*

Again, to be clear it’s only a deception IF it was a miracle.*

I.e., putting limitations on God’s omnipotent power. Since you don’t understand how God did it, it must have been an act of deception; I understand…

Sure, if it really happened then it’s very impressive.*

And proof of God…?

 

[Candide_West]

God is morally perfect; God is not deceptive. Deception is immoral. To each their own of course…*

Exactly. Hence the theological problem for Christianity.*

Christianity is a faith-based system. Believe in Jesus or reject Jesus; it’s up to each individual…Science has nothing to do with Christianity…*

And yet Christians DO use that defence for why there is no evidence of God. For example when scientific studies into the power of prayer are carried out the results have shown no evidence of an effect.*

You see a theological problem; I see an amazing life-changing miracle…

Yes, I’m sure it would be life changing, but nonetheless deception for that fact.*

Nah…Fatima was an amazing miracle performed by the creator, that drew people closer to the creator.*

I know you believe that. Of course if that is correct then it was also a deception. We’ve already gone over this. I’m not sure why you’re covering the same ground again?*

*Based on what you have said in the past: sounds about right.

Yup

 

[Candide_West]

Like a person walking on water? Of course that too would seem to be deceptive since we all know that this would defy our natural laws. All miracles, (if witnessed) defy all logic and explanation, and therefore should be construed as a deception - correct?

No, not at all. You see deception is not “doing something that defies all logic and explanation”, or “an action that breaks the laws of physics”. If that were required for deception then people would be incapable of it.*

Deception is "deliberately leading someone to believe something is true when it is not ".

So there is nothing deceptive about walking on water. Very impressive sure, but not deceptive. On the other hand leading people to believe you are walking on water when you are not IS deception. It is of course still very impressive, but no less deception for that fact.*

 

[joe370]

Candide West;10107592]Exactly. Hence the theological problem for Christianity.*

Nah…

And yet Christians DO use that defence for why there is no evidence of God. For example when scientific studies into the power of prayer are carried out the results have shown no evidence of an effect.*

I saw that show. Kind of silly in my humble opinion.

Yes, I’m sure it would be life changing, but nonetheless deception for that fact.*

Only to you… “For with God nothing shall be impossible.” Luke 1

I know you believe that. Of course if that is correct then it was also a deception. We’ve already gone over this. I’m not sure why you’re covering the same ground again?*

Zero deception. God is a God of love, not a God of deception, at least in my opinion. A mind-boggling miracle that only God could do. We will have to agree to disagree.