Mass delusion or genuine miracle?

[atheistgirl]

And all of this was overturned with the Miracle of the Sun.

I’m not so sure but I have tracked down some interesting reading. What a turbulant time for Portugal

I hope to also track down some Church documents that will flesh out the numbers involved in these ‘‘droves’’ of atheists converting.

Thanks for the links.

Sarah x

 

[Kaninchen]

I don’t want to get involved in the argument here but wouldn’t it be a good idea for the Fatima Website Resources people to catch up with the fact that the history of Portugal has moved on from their triumph in the 1926 coup d’etat?

Things like the ‘Carnation Revolution’ of 1974 and the establishment of a democratic Portugal, for example? They might also notice that only about a fifth of the population attend church (other than for ‘baptisms, weddings and funerals’) and there might be even more actual atheists around (about 10%) than there were in 1917.

The triumphalism is understandable but Portugal is a different place now.

 

[Candide_West]

a). The event appeared to be happening to the sun (referring to witnesses descriptions)

I’m afraid I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking me to elaborate on. Since you bolded point b). I guess it’s something in there, but all that is really is acknowledging that the sun is visible from around 50% of the earths surface at any given time, not just Fatima. Hence if something had really happened to the sun then you wouldn’t have needed to be at Fatima to see it or even anywhere in the Iberian Peninsula for that matter.

Given that it wasn’t we must surely acknowledge that whatever happened it wasn’t happening to the sun.*

 

[Poof]

I’m afraid I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking me to elaborate on. Since you bolded point b). I guess it’s something in there, but all that is really is acknowledging that the sun is visible from around 50% of the earths surface at any given time, not just Fatima. Hence if something had really happened to the sun then you wouldn’t have needed to be at Fatima to see it or even anywhere in the Iberian Peninsula for that matter.

Given that it wasn’t we must surely acknowledge that whatever happened it wasn’t happening to the sun.*

From what I understand you’re saying that it could not have been the sun because if it were, you wouldn’t need to be in Fatima to see the miracle, it would have been seen by 50% of the globe. However, since the miracle was not witnessed by 50% of the globe and only by those within a 20 mile radius of the Cova then it couldn’t have been the sun? If so, I’ll reiterate what I said earlier.

Three months prior to the miracle, *the Virgin Mary invited everyone to go to the Cova at noon on the prophesied day, promising a miracle so that all may believe. Because of this, 40,000 to 100,000 people traveled several miles be it via foot, car or train to the said spot. *The miracle happened and was witnessed by everyone over a radius of 20 miles. *However, at the same time no astronomical or meteorological observatories were able to record it. The three underlined facts above establish that the miracle was both a local and exclusive one. God, with his power, made all of this possible by twisting the laws of nature. Now how he did this we do not know (that’s why it’s called a miracle). However, one thing is certain and that’s the fact that God intended this miracle to be seen by only a selected few, or being specific, the people who accepted Mary’s invitation to go to the Cova and the fortunate people who happened to be living there.

If God intended this miracle to be seen by all (non-exclusive), then Mary’s message for people to “go in the Cova to see a miracle” wouldn’t make much sense. If God intended this miracle to be non-exclusive then it would have made more sense for Mary to say, “stay at your homes and look at the sky at noon during the prophesied day” but no, she specifically told anyone who wanted to see the miracle to go to this spot at noon during the prophesied day.

 

[joe370]

I’m afraid I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking me to elaborate on. Since you bolded point b). I guess it’s something in there, but all that is really is acknowledging that the sun is visible from around 50% of the earths surface at any given time, not just Fatima. Hence if something had really happened to the sun then you wouldn’t have needed to be at Fatima to see it or even anywhere in the Iberian Peninsula for that matter.

Given that it wasn’t we must surely acknowledge that whatever happened it wasn’t happening to the sun.*

Your missing the point of Fatima. It was all about the people of Fatima denying the validity, like yourself, because they could not see Mary, as the kids could. Therefore they hed begun to demand a miracle,and the miracle occurred on the exact day and hour that the kids had predicted. It would be pointless to try and find a natural answer to resolve the dancing of the Sun and its sudden rush toward the people at the Cova in Portugal, simply because it’s a miracle, beyond what our senses can perceive which is why those atheists and unbelievers didn’t try to explain the even via science. Instead so many said things like:

"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.

“All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena.” Professor Almeida Garrett

This movie had a profound effect on me so I thought I would share it with both catholics and non-catholics. It is visually stunning, allowing you to really see what so many people like Professor Almeida Garrett described; go right to end if you are not interested in the movie and watch the event of the Sun unfold with your own eyes as seen through reliable eyewitness descriptions:

Trailer:

the13thday.com/

Actual movie:

youtube.com/watch?v=NaIp8…feature=fvwrel

 

[Candide_West]

From what I understand you’re saying that it could not have been the sun because if it were, you wouldn’t need to be in Fatima to see the miracle, it would have been seen by 50% of the globe. However, since the miracle was not witnessed by 50% of the globe and only by those within a 20 mile radius of the Cova then it couldn’t have been the sun? If so, I’ll reiterate what I said earlier. *

Three months prior to the miracle, *the Virgin Mary invited everyone to go to the Cova at noon on the prophesied day, promising a miracle so that all may believe. Because of this, 40,000 to 100,000 people traveled several miles be it via foot, car or train to the said spot. *The miracle happened and was witnessed by everyone over a radius of 20 miles. *However, at the same time no astronomical or meteorological observatories were able to record it. The three underlined facts above establish that the miracle was both a local and exclusive one. God, with his power, made all of this possible by twisting the laws of nature. Now how he did this we do not know (that’s why it’s called a miracle). However, one thing is certain and that’s the fact that God intended this miracle to be seen by only a selected few, or being specific, the people who accepted Mary’s invitation to go to the Cova and the fortunate people who happened to be living there.

If God intended this miracle to be seen by all (non-exclusive), then Mary’s message for people to “go in the Cova to see a miracle” wouldn’t make much sense. If God intended this miracle to be non-exclusive then it would have made more sense for Mary to say, “stay at your homes and look at the sky at noon during the prophesied day” but no, she specifically told anyone who wanted to see the miracle to go to this spot at noon during the prophesied day.

Ok, so given all that, my question for you is

“Would you say that the event at Fatima (assuming for the moment it was miraculous) was therefore a sort of deception? If not, why not?”

And I’ll add a second out of interest.

“Do you believe God will submit himself to the scientific method again? Or was this a one off event? If the latter why?”

 

[Candide_West]

Your missing the point of Fatima. It was all about the people of Fatima denying the validity, like yourself, because they could not see Mary, as the kids could. Therefore they hed begun to demand a miracle,and the miracle occurred on the exact day and hour that the kids had predicted. It would be pointless to try and find a natural answer to resolve the dancing of the Sun and its sudden rush toward the people at the Cova in Portugal, *simply because it’s a miracle, beyond what our senses can perceive *which is why those atheists and unbelievers didn’t try to explain the even via science. Instead so many said things like:

Er, I think you’ve missed the point of my post, or perhaps you intended to reply to someone else? I am not denying the validity of it. Indeed for the sake of discussion I’ve assumed not only that what the witnesses reported was what they genuinely experienced, but ALSO that it was a miracle (a supernatural event caused by God).

The issues I have raised (God undertaking deception and submitting himself to a prediction and test cycle - the scientific method) only apply IF it was a genuine miracle. Would you like to answer the questions I asked Poof? Here they are for your convenience.

“Would you say that the event at Fatima (assuming for the moment it was miraculous) was therefore a sort of deception? If not, why not?”

And

“Do you believe God will submit himself to the scientific method again? Or was this a one off event? If the latter why?”

 

[Faithdancer]

That question gets asked here frequently. I would just say that i have not sufficient information to evaluate or sufficient means (or motivation) to investigate the event. So i would neither call it a miracle nor a mass delusion.

Mais c’est tres ostriche!

 

[Faithdancer]

So you are another who believes God fooled people into believing something was happening when it was not.

Does the idea of God decieving people not concern you?

I suggest you read Aquinas. God does not deceive. Humans misunderstand and misinterpret God because they are human, and therefore imperfect, trying to understand a supreme being who is perfect. This is logical. Your argument is a straw man, and easily refuted by logic.

 

[Faithdancer]

I don’t want to get involved in the argument here but wouldn’t it be a good idea for the Fatima Website Resources people to catch up with the fact that the history of Portugal has moved on from their triumph in the 1926 coup d’etat?

Things like the ‘Carnation Revolution’ of 1974 and the establishment of a democratic Portugal, for example? They might also notice that only about a fifth of the population attend church (other than for ‘baptisms, weddings and funerals’) and there might be even more actual atheists around (about 10%) than there were in 1917.

The triumphalism is understandable but Portugal is a different place now.

I’m still waiting for the atheists to produce the enlightened utopia they promise. I guess Stalinist Russia and Mao’s China and Pol Pot’s Cambodia were just test runs.

 

[Poof]

Ok, so given all that, my question for you is “Would you say that the event at Fatima (assuming for the moment it was miraculous) was therefore a sort of deception? If not, why not?”

You lost me there. What do you mean by that?

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m still waiting for the atheists to produce the enlightened utopia they promise. I guess Stalinist Russia and Mao’s China and Pol Pot’s Cambodia were just test runs.

You’re expecting it in Portugal?

 

[Candide_West]

I suggest you read Aquinas. God does not deceive. Humans misunderstand and misinterpret God because they are human, and therefore imperfect, trying to understand a supreme being who is perfect. This is logical. Your argument is a straw man, and easily refuted by logic.

I suggest you read the post I was replying to, it isn’t me who is saying that God deceived people. I’m just expressing my surprise that some Catholics on this site don’t seem to be concerned by the idea of the god they believe in deceiving people.

 

[Candide_West]

You lost me there. What do you mean by that?

Well to me, when someone deliberately creates the impression that something is happening, when it is in fact NOT happening, I refer to that as deception (by which I mean decieving people). Do you agree?

 

[Poof]

Well to me, when someone deliberately creates the impression that something is happening, when it is in fact NOT happening, I refer to that as deception (by which I mean decieving people). Do you agree?

Okay, I know where you’re going. I agree with your definition of deception but you’re missing the point.

Fatima was no deception. The sun at Fatima was as real as you and I are right now. God, with his power, made all of this possible by twisting the laws of nature. Again, how he did this we will never know (that’s why it’s called a miracle, it defies science and goes beyond the natural order of things).

Now here’s my question to you Candide, suppose God existed for one moment, do you think he would be capable of making the sun “spin and dance” in one place while making it appear in its usual state elsewhere?

Jesus walked on water and I could assure you if any person tried walking on water on the scene or anywhere else in the world he would end up in the water (but this does that mean that the water was a deception). Likewise in Fatima, the sun swirled around the sky sending off great rays of colored light that tinted the ground, while the rest of the world saw nothing extra-ordinary Both cases are not deceptions, on the contrary, they were as real as you could get.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Mais c’est tres ostriche!

I’m trying to be honest. As of yet it seems to be agreed that the people may have experienced certain perceptions but it does seem to be known what happened. There are also no high fidelity recordings of the event. As far as I know it’s not presently in my capabilities to determine whether or not this is a “miracle.” And I don’t mind saying so.

I’m content to just let it be.

 

[Candide_West]

Okay, I know where you’re going. I agree with your definition of deception but you’re missing the point.

I’m don’t think I’m missing the point but rather raising an additional couple points.

Fatima was no deception. The sun at Fatima was as real as you and I are right now. God, with his power, made all of this possible by twisting the laws of nature. Again, how he did this we will never know (that’s why it’s called a miracle, it defies science and goes beyond the natural order of things).*

But the sun that shines at Fatima is the same sun that shines on Rome and on everywhere else on earth. So if something happened to the sun then it would have been visible everywhere. If something didn’t happen to the sun then what people witnessed was a very impressive illusion, which is a form of deception.*

It doesn’t matter to my point how the illusion was achieved, so sure let’s say God twisted the laws of nature locally which made it look as if the sun was dancing. If the sun wasn’t REALLY dancing then this is an illusion and hence a deception.*

Now here’s my question to you Candide, suppose God existed for one moment, do you think he would be capable of making the sun “spin and dance” in one place while making it appear in its usual state elsewhere?

Sure if he exists then he could create illusions of the sun disappearing, reappearing and turning into a pink elephant if he wants. But if he’s making it look like that in one place and not in another then one of those impressions is an illusion. Hence deception.

Jesus walked on water and I could assure you if any person tried walking on water on the scene or anywhere else in the world he would end up in the water (but this does that mean that the water was a deception).

But that’s a problem of physics, not deception (thus not a problem for an omnipotent god if one exists). If on the other hand Jesus had appeared to walk on water to those in the boat, but appeared to get a boat across the water to those on land watching then we’d have to conclude that at least one of those appearances was false (or that they were looking at different Jesus’s which is no less a deception of course).

*Likewise in Fatima, the sun swirled around the sky sending off great rays of colored light that tinted the ground, while the rest of the world saw nothing extra-ordinary Both cases are not deceptions, on the contrary, they were as real as you could get.

The two cases are different in that with the walking on water we are told that he really did walk on water, not that he appeared to walk on water to some people but appeared not to to other people. If on the other hand he’d created an illusion of having walked on water for some people but didn’t REALLY do it. That would still be impressive but we’d have the problem with Jesus undertaking deception.*

 

[Poof]

Since I’m a little short on time at the moment I’ll respond to your main point now and leave the rest for tomorrow.

But the sun that shines at Fatima is the same sun that shines on Rome and on everywhere else on earth. So if something happened to the sun then it would have been visible everywhere…It doesn’t matter to my point how the illusion was achieved, so sure let’s say God twisted the laws of nature locally which made it look as if the sun was dancing. If the sun wasn’t REALLY dancing then this is an illusion and hence a deception.

And isn’t the sun that he “twisted” locally (Fatima) the same sun found everywhere else? As you said, the sun that shines at Fatima is no different from that shines in France or Los Angeles because there is only one sun. So by saying God “twisted” the laws of the sun at Fatima is no different from saying he twisted the laws of the sun in France. God twisted the laws of ONE sun, its just that he made the sun do extraordinary things in one place while making it remain normal everywhere else. Again, God twisted the laws of nature. That’s why its called a miracle - it defies science and goes beyond the natural order of things. I have a hard time believing that an omnipotent God who resides outside of the space and time, cannot make the sun “spin and dance” in one place while making it stay in its usual state elsewhere without resorting to deception.

Again throwing back the question, is it impossible for an omnipotent God to make the sun (the one sun that we see everyday) “spin and dance” in one place while making it remain in its usual state elsewhere without resorting to deception?

 

[ricks1948]

There is something else I didn’t see mentioned yet. It was a wet/rainy morning, the sun came out and suddenly everything was “miraculusly*”(*sp) dry. I take that as evideance of God’s hand in this, ergo genuine miracle. (I thought there were other signs that day, would have to look it up)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Since I’m a little short on time at the moment I’ll respond to your main point now and leave the rest for tomorrow.

And isn’t the sun that he “twisted” locally (Fatima) the same sun found everywhere else? As you said, the sun that shines at Fatima is no different from that shines in France or Los Angeles because there is only one sun. So by saying God “twisted” the laws of the sun at Fatima is no different from saying he twisted the laws of the sun in France. God twisted the laws of ONE sun, its just that he made the sun do extraordinary things in one place while making it remain normal everywhere else. Again, God twisted the laws of nature. That’s why its called a miracle - it defies science and goes beyond the natural order of things. I have a hard time believing that an omnipotent God who resides outside of the space and time, cannot make the sun “spin and dance” in one place while making it stay in its usual state elsewhere without resorting to deception.

Again throwing back the question, is it impossible for an omnipotent God to make the sun (the one sun that we see everyday) “spin and dance” in one place while making it remain in its usual state elsewhere without resorting to deception?

Also, we are temporal beings. We exist in a particular ‘time’ and ‘space’.

All created things exist in a time and space.

BUT: What about OUTSIDE that time and space? We talk of four or five dimensions that we are ‘cognizant’ of; what if there are more?

What if in a 6th or 7th dimension outside of the earth’s TEMPORAL existence the earth itself 'dances", the sun dances, etc? Or at least, in so far as human senses understand it, that is what they APPEAR to do.

What if God permitted the people of Fatima to be ‘caught up into the third heaven’ so to speak (as Scripture notes) so that THEIR PERCEPTION of the sun was based on the sun’s function IN THAT OTHER DIMENSION.

The miracle is that God would have let people see something ‘outside’ their dimension.

No deceptions. Everything functioning according to law and reason --for each given person, place, time, dimension, etc.