Mass delusion or genuine miracle?

[joe370]

Candide West

I Lets try again. Do you believe that the sun was both dancing and NOT dancing at the same time?

I believe that God performed a miracle, thus allowing people there at the cova to witness the impossible, in order to renew their faith. If you want to call it a deception claiming that God could have caused them to see, miraculously, something that really wasn’t happening for the rest of the world, that’s cool. That is a pretty awesome miracle as well.

 

[Candide_West]

I already addressed this. We are ‘temporal’ beings who exist in certain temporal dimensions. But certainly further dimensions are possible.

Look at a point. It’s a one dimensional concept. It couldn’t even begin to imagine (were it sentient) a two dimensional line. And the line couldn’t imagine a cube. But the CUBE could imagine a point or line. To the cube, those things (point and line) would make perfect sense–for their dimension–but would lack the ‘completeness’ of the cube’s third dimension.

God doesn’t exist ‘in’ time. He created it. We’re only aware of what we can see, and to an extent what we can postulate; He of course knows all of it and beyond.

Not a problem, I’ve already assumed all that for the sake of this discussion.

So why couldn’t God’s actions in revealing to people a further spatial dimension cause exactly what we have reported? People seeing something that was beyond what they knew trying to fit it into a concept of what they knew? If you existed in a two dimensional world, how would YOU describe a cube if you happened to miraculously be able to look ‘into’ a three dimensional world while remaining in your two dimensional one?

Ok, then what you are saying is that the deception that God created was giving people the impression that something was happening to the sun which was actually happening in a different dimension.

There doesn’t seem to be any way to get around it. The people at Fatima were convinced and very specific that what they saw happening was happening TO THE SUN. If it was not happening to the sun but to something else then what they saw was an illusion. Perhaps it was a very impressive illusion but an illusion nonetheless.

 

[Candide_West]

The atheists’ take at Fatima, though, is a complete failure. Instead of trying to find out what actually happened, they are desperately trying to prove that the event didn’t take place at all. Good luck with that. Because if there’s one thing I can say about that whole thing is for sure is that – something happened. Who (or what) did it, why, and how, we don’t really know.

Out of interest which atheists have this view of Fatima?

Personally I think it’s obvious that something happened. It would be very interesting to discover what it was, however this is likely to prove challenging under the circumstances.

 

[Candide_West]

I believe that God performed a miracle, thus allowing people there at the cova to witness the impossible, in order to renew their faith. If you want to call it a deception claiming that God could have caused them to see, miraculously, something that really wasn’t happening for the rest of the world, that’s cool. That is a pretty awesome miracle as well.

And once again you have not answered the question. Why are you so desperate to avoid answering? Is it because you understand full well that saying “yes” means abandoning rationality and saying “no” means accepting that you believe God deceived people?

Lets try again. One last time. Do you believe that the sun was both dancing and NOT dancing at the same time?

 

[joe370]

And once again you have not answered the question. Why are you so desperate to avoid answering? Is it because you understand full well that saying “yes” means abandoning rationality and saying “no” means accepting that you believe God deceived people?

Lets try again. One last time. Do you believe that the sun was both dancing and NOT dancing at the same time?

I believe those people saw a dancing sun. Could God make the sun dance (powerful illusion) for those folks at the cova and not dance for others? Yes, yes, and yes, for nothing, in my opinion is impossible for God who created everything from nothing! How’s that… If you want to believe (and I am not saying that you do) that the deception on the part of God, somehow nullifies the miracle, that’s cool.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Not a problem, I’ve already assumed all that for the sake of this discussion.

Ok, then what you are saying is that the deception that God created was giving people the impression that something was happening to the sun which was actually happening in a different dimension.

There doesn’t seem to be any way to get around it. The people at Fatima were convinced and very specific that what they saw happening was happening TO THE SUN. If it was not happening to the sun but to something else then what they saw was an illusion. Perhaps it was a very impressive illusion but an illusion nonetheless.

No, you’re hung up on the word ‘deception’.

How is it DECEIVING people to give them a glimpse of what is coming to them in future? When we die, we will ALL become aware of the ‘entirety’ that now is beyond our sight or experience.

If you were able for example to show a person living in AD 500 a working TV, would that TV itself be a DECEPTION? Of course not.

 

[Candide_West]

I believe those people saw a dancing sun. Could God make the sun dance (powerful illusion) for those folks at the cova and not dance for others? Yes, yes, and yes, for nothing, in my opinion is impossible for God who created everything from nothing!How’s that…

Ok, so you’re saying that you believe the sun wasn’t dancing but God created a powerful illusion to make it look like it was. Correct?

If you want to believe (and I am not saying that you do) that the deception on the part of God, somehow nullifies the miracle, that’s cool.

Nope, I wouldn’t say it nullifies the miracle. I’m just a bit surprised you and other Christians are ok with God deceiving people.

 

[Candide_West]

No, you’re hung up on the word ‘deception’. *

Well it’s the most appropriate word I can think of. So I see no reason not to use it.*
*

How is it DECEIVING people to give them a glimpse of what is coming to them in future? *When we die, we will ALL become aware of the ‘entirety’ that now is beyond our sight or experience.

Well it wouldn’t necessarily. Unless of course in giving them a glimpse you made them think something was happening when it wasn’t. Clearly THAT would be deception. And thats what we’re talking about here really.
*

If you were able for example to show a person living in AD 500 a working TV, would that TV itself be a DECEPTION? *Of course not.

No that wouldn’t. But of course if you made him think that the rock wall of his hut was a TV when it wasn’t, THAT would be deception. If you’re having difficulty in determining if something is deception or not then it may help to compare it again the definitions of the word. Here are some I used previously.*

1. Cause to believe something that is not true.
2. Give a mistaken impression.

So showing someone something they don’t understand (like your tv example) is not sufficient for deception. You have to make someone believe something is true when it is not. For example making them believe the sun is dancing when it is not.*

 

[joe370]

Candide West;9699421]Ok, so you’re saying that you believe the sun wasn’t dancing but God created a powerful illusion to make it look like it was. Correct?

Nope, I wouldn’t say it nullifies the miracle. I’m just a bit surprised you and other Christians are ok with God deceiving people.

I am OK with a miracle via an illusion; kind of cool actually. Let’s put it this way: no one there at the Cova felt deceived; quite the opposite; even non-believers!!! They would have felt terribly deceived if nothing had happened.

 

[dskysmine]

The main problem here is what was the actual miracle!
Most of the people here think that the miracle was “a dancing sun”. But is that actually what happened there? The dance of the sun is how people who saw the miracle describe what they saw, but no one ever said that the miracle was “a dancing sun”. It could have been a “glimpse” into a future where the sun would behave like that… It could be a lot of other things, but it doesn’t make it a “deception” from God to people that the people there experienced it one way while the rest of the world did not. Remember that the 3 little sheppards did not say what miracle was going to happen. When people describe angels they also say they are humanoid and have wings, but we don’t really know if they are like that or if our brain just produces our experiences with them like that. Do not underestimate the Supernatural… it not Natural!
God bless,
D

 

[Candide_West]

The main problem here is what was the actual miracle!
Most of the people here think that the miracle was “a dancing sun”. But is that actually what happened there? The dance of the sun is how people who saw the miracle describe what they saw, but no one ever said that the miracle was “a dancing sun”. It could have been a “glimpse” into a future where the sun would behave like that… It could be a lot of other things, but it doesn’t make it a “deception” from God to people that the people there experienced it one way while the rest of the world did not.*

Right, what makes it a deception is making people believe something was happening which was not actually happening.*

Remember that the 3 little sheppards did not say what miracle was going to happen. When people describe angels they also say they are humanoid and have wings, but we don’t really know if they are like that or if our brain just produces our experiences with them like that. Do not underestimate the Supernatural… it not Natural!
God bless,
D

As yet I’ve never been able to make any estimate at all of the supernatural.*

 

[Candide_West]

I am OK with a miracle via an illusion; kind of cool actually. Let’s put it this way: no one there at the Cova felt deceived; quite the opposite; even non-believers!!! They would have felt terribly deceived if nothing had happened.

Ok, so the deception was very good.

But still, doesn’t the idea of God deceiving people worry you?

 

[joe370]

Ok, so the deception was very good.

But still, doesn’t the idea of God deceiving people worry you?

I thought we covered this? The people believing that something happened even if it did not actually happen (if that was how God worked the great miracle) does not bother me. It bolstered their faith. It’s awesome.

 

[dskysmine]

Right, what makes it a deception is making people believe something was happening which was not actually happening.*

As yet I’ve never been able to make any estimate at all of the supernatural.*

What’s with you?
God did not “make” people believe the sun was dancing… they believed the sun was dancing due to the presence of the Supernatural.
For your mind the only possibility is God “screwing” some people’s neurons to fire the wrong way. Nobody that was present there believes that.
I believe that the Divine made its presence there in some way that distorted their perceptions because our bodies are not yet Supernatural.
Think of it like this:
Here is the sun----------Here is the Divine presence–.------------people that saw the miracle
O-------------------------------------------------X-----------------------------------------------------

God bless,
D.

 

[joe370]

Ok, so the deception was very good.

But still, doesn’t the idea of God deceiving people worry you?

The illusion was very great. Do you believe that God was up to something shifty? Were God’s motives good or bad in your opinion? If bad then please explain?

Surely God, if God wanted to, could alter nature and only allow a few to actually witness it. At least you are willing to call it a miracle. Most just say that those folks were lying or delusional. If God can create everything from absolutely nothing then, well, you know the rest…

 

[joe370]

dskysmine;9701865]What’s with you?
God did not “make” people believe the sun was dancing… they believed the sun was dancing due to the presence of the Supernatural.

To be fair, it is impossible for the natural mind to comprehend the supernatural. It takes a great deal of faith, unless of course one witnesses the supernatural themselves. To me, thousands of witnesses in the 20th century (not the 1st century) is overwhelming evidence. It doesn’t get more empirical than that…

 

[joe370]

Think of it like this:
Here is the sun----------Here is the Divine presence–.------------people that saw the miracle
O-------------------------------------------------X-----------------------------------------------------

God bless,
D.

 

[buffalo]

70,000 people “witnessing” the event, vs 1.8bn other people not noticing a darn thing. Delusion, by any measure. Probably an atmospheric thing, probably inflated numbers of witnesses, probably “massaged” predicition dates, probably embellished witness statements and reportage.

Not a miracle.

Any evidence for your claim?

 

[joe370]

70,000 people “witnessing” the event, vs 1.8bn other people not noticing a darn thing. Delusion, by any measure. Probably an atmospheric thing, probably inflated numbers of witnesses, probably “massaged” predicition dates, probably embellished witness statements and reportage.

.

Probably…probably…probably…In other words you do not know and refuse to investigate?

 

[Callin]

Ok, so the deception was very good.

But still, doesn’t the idea of God deceiving people worry you?

I think any deception as you’re putting it was far outweighed both mentally and factually by a much more significant realization - that the supernatural does exist. Even if it was somewhat misleading, most people would gladly trade the former for the latter.

But I’m not sure deception is a good word for it. So far, this thread assumes that either the sun actually moved, or false images were implanted in these people’s heads. How about a third possibility: God merely bent the sunlight heading for that region of the earth so that it fluctuated? I see nothing sinister about that, nor anything refuting that possibility.